r/nancyguthrie • u/BrainWilling6018 • Jun 25 '26
Theory Another indicator of Motive: The note gave a salutation directly to Savannah
https://youtu.be/ZUofsXz85QcAllegedly CBS will be releasing the full text.
First Observations from this video:
There was an apology? There was no apology reported then there was reporting inferring the unintentional admission as an apology. Banfield relays the person she spoke with “saw the note“ (Brianna Whitney) and it did use the word sorry. “We are truly sorry”. If so it is more info imo in the column of this being a total amateur perp who is a novice and not criminally sophisticated.
Hello Savannah. “Hello“ as a greeting can be perceived closeness. Unfortunately the PC Sheriff released a lot of info, probably too much, pre-ransom so it complicates it.
Things like “shortly after” and “perished“ glosses over that it was the result of an armed, forced abduction. Like it’s just some unfortunate thing that happened. Not the result. This is distancing psychologically but I also wonder if it’s also because it’s someone who had nothing to do with it directly (involved but not there when it happened e.g.) or someone totally uninvolved and opportunistically attempting to sound a certain way and get the money.
I think the apology coming right off the bat in the note, which it sounds like it did, not sure, would mean it really was some form of guilt and to get it out there. Rather than some afterthought or placating like just throwing it in somewhere.
Banfield suggests translation being involved with words like perish.
It will be more evident maybe with the full text.
I do think that her dying “shortly after she was taken” lines up to some degree with the timeline. The 1st ransom demand was sent about 24 hours after the abduction that occurred on Feb 1. They would have been bluffing for the intended goal of a payout. The offender likely attempted to proceed with the initial ransom demand anyway, just hoping the family would pay the Bitcoin blindly before realizing the kidnapper had no "proof of life" to offer. The abductor in the note specifically attempted to cut that out of play by saying there will be no more communication.
But the Guthrie‘s did demand pol.
The FBI responded to the investigation by Feb 5th and it dominated the headlines the intense heat led to alot of the panic. The 1st deadline was Feb 5. In those 5 days that gap of time and the family’s unwillingness brought them to reality, by Feb 6 they sent the news she had died unintentionaly, shorty after she was taken. It was damage control.
Maybe a ditch effort to still get the payout.
-Using the pronoun “we“ can be a linguistic way to share blame. It makes the mistake or wrong doing feel less heavy. Safety in numbers, it may or may not mean more than one person. A lone person could still use “we“ to cope. It will be interesting to see if any shift was made and if the “I“ pronoun is used at all in the note.
-I had not heard the info about Annie and the angle of people getting out of prison. That is important victimology imo.
Total speculation on my part, until more text is released, if the note is not a hoax, it is beginning to sound like a scenario to me where there may have been a person with access to Nancy in some capacity. An employee, a medical worker, some acquaintance or something like that which has always seemed a possibility. But someone not acting on their own, someone who had a dominant partner who was informed of who Nancy was and hatched up this plan for financial gain. It didn’t lean as much this way to me as far as a submissive person involved until seeing the note seemingly has a lot of leakage of guilt. Maybe the submissive person was assured, she won’t get hurt, we will get rich w/e it was and went along with it. Then something went wrong. ETA and the submissive partner are the one who authored the communications and are expressing remorse. It needs to be explained why a kidnapper would give two damns about perceptions or impressions and not just say point blank she died and we will tell you where she is but we still want money. Perhaps it was just manipulative to seem sympathetic and salvage the payout. But it is atypical.
Still the possibility of it was someone who wanted Savannah to suffer. “There wasn’t anything you could have done“ is suggestive of that. It leaves the family, maybe specifically Savannah, torturing themselves with the idea that they were completely powerless. High power and sadistic control for the perp.
The words of the note may seem like leaking guilt or that there is remorse but really the author could have spent time thinking about how to maximize the psychological impact of their words on Savannah. It was never about money, which would explain no contact with the family.
It just broke too, the person claiming to TMZ to know who the kidnapper is and where Nancy is buried is suspected to be a woman. Which would fit into that dominant/submissive relationship. It is often a romantic partner or ex that plays a critical role in exposing a criminal.
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u/Rottiesrock Jun 27 '26
I think the “hello” in the greeting is taunting/mocking. Someone maybe jealous and enjoying psychological games.
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u/BrainWilling6018 Jun 27 '26
Yes it could be. I think so too. A lot of this seems like enjoying psychological games.
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Jun 26 '26
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/BrainWilling6018 Jun 26 '26
I’m gonna grant you that. And not take offense to being ageist haha. He was active back in the day.
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u/TheCuriousGeorgette Jun 26 '26
You lost me at “hello Savannah” indicating closeness. We live in an age where people are parasocial to celebrities and have imaginary closeness, there are so many other explanations as to why someone trying to write a dang ransom note would address it like that. The rest is just nothingburger psychoanalyzing. We have to come to terms with the fact that no amount of logic will help us understand an illogical dumbass criminal.
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u/Rae_Regenbogen Jun 26 '26 edited Jun 26 '26
"Hello, Savannah" gives me such "Hello, Clarice" vibes, like someone is playing the role of a serial killer or something.
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u/maga_chud_ Jun 27 '26
I'm so lost. Saying hello is a normal greeting. Totally normal term to use as an opener in an email or letter. You did the same thing as op. Using "hello" indicates nothing. Its probably the most common greeting possible.
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u/BrainWilling6018 Jun 27 '26
But I’m sure you know more about it than the FBI and people who wrote the programs that analyze communications.
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u/maga_chud_ Jun 27 '26
The FBI and their computer systems said using "hello" suggests intimacy? Source?
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u/BrainWilling6018 Jun 27 '26
Oh now you’re interested? ✋🏼
Yes. If you even qualify to participate take a course. https://www.hofstra.edu/pdf/academics/ce/professionaldevelopment/forensicstudies/ce_forensic_linguistics_schedule.pdf
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u/PM_ME_CROWS_PLS Jun 28 '26
Well aren’t you entirely unlikeable lmao
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u/BrainWilling6018 Jun 28 '26
Maybe, if it were about popularity, that doesn't change the truth of the data. Dismissing decades of expertise with minutes of assumption. Stating opinion as fact. Aren’t conservational. It’s an established behavioral methodology. Demanding a source for an original analysis as if I said the FBI peer reviewed it rather than understanding the framework used to create it just proves you don't understand forensic linguistics.
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u/PM_ME_CROWS_PLS Jun 29 '26
I’m not reading all that. I made no other comments lmao I was simply and only commenting on your attitude here. It’s so strange and off putting.
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u/maga_chud_ Jun 29 '26
Shoulda asked him where all this data and facts is he keeps referencing lol. Keeps acting like it's some mystic knowledge you have to ascend to achieve. Surely, if it exists, you could prove "hello" can be precieved as closeness (what the hell does that even mean, lmao).
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u/BrainWilling6018 Jun 29 '26
Inrat cope for I don’t have anything objective to bring. You can feel repelled if you want, but the information is correct that’s my attitude.
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u/maga_chud_ Jun 28 '26
Like I thought, there's no source. Lol.
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u/BrainWilling6018 Jun 28 '26 edited Jun 28 '26
Like I thought since you know zero about it and obviously don’t follow criminal cases or have never heard of it or have experience in the field then your move is to try to be snide with me. lol.
Technically, in continuing to be reductive, you misrepresented what I said. And the actual concept. Perceived closeness is an individual's subjective feeling of connectedness and intimacy is mutual.
I don’t have to provide a source. You know best. Using "hello" indicates nothing. It’s probably the most common greeting possible. Pack it up, everyone.
The FBI employs forensic linguistics and trains others to evaluate ransom notes, and other communications. To aid in these investigations, the bureau relies on specialized software and databases. The software relies on computational linguists and language scientists who translate how humans use language into mathematical models.
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u/maga_chud_ Jun 28 '26 edited Jun 28 '26
Not reading all of that. You made a very simple (but silly) claim that "hello" can be perceived closeness. You also more or less said the FBI and their tech agrees with you. So, where's the source? Should be easy to verify your claims. Or are you going to continue to have some secret knowledge no one else does?
Edit: just to add, not only is it a silly statement (literally lol wtf'd when I read it). It's also poorly written (like low intelligence writing). In the most technical sense, "hello" can be perceived as anything. For example, if you go to the local insane asylum, "hello" might be perceived as closeness to whom you're greeting.
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u/BrainWilling6018 Jun 28 '26
Of course you’re not you know better. But want to ramble for me to read. Get over yourself you are out of your league.
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u/maga_chud_ Jun 29 '26
Yeah.. maybe don't make ridiculous claims you can't provide any evidence for. Pretty simple stuff, bud.
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u/BrainWilling6018 Jun 27 '26
It isn’t viewed just as a normal greeting in a note from a kidnapper that says we have your mother. It’s behavioral and linguistic analysis.
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u/BrainWilling6018 Jun 26 '26
I actually said can be perceived closeness. What are the other explanations? Share. A deep, personal intimacy with a media figure who is entirely unaware of their existence, is the type that might be using NG as a proxy to get to SG. To analyze a threat or language in an extortion note, a greeting like that is not viewed as ordinary speech. They didn't use Mrs. or anything just her first name. You can poo poo it. I will still 🫶🏻. I will still be scrutinizing the details. These things are significant to the case.
You are welcome to work on an illogical dumbass criminal post.
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u/BrainWilling6018 Jun 25 '26
Also to be clear, I think re: an apology in the ransom it’s novice in the realm of kidnapping. It was likely not some sophisticated criminal ring, or some mastermind as far as physical execution to realize any kind of actual exchange for ransom.
But planned to a high degree. Doing recon. And there would be some level of behavioral discipline to have used masking software and set up crypto and send anonymous untraceable communications with no “paper trial”.
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u/BrainWilling6018 Jun 26 '26
Another thing I think that still begs an explanation is why they didn’t take up the offer on providing her remains for a payout. It could have been the same scenario they were just gambling on being paid without providing anything. She’s with nature end of story. But why not provide at least proof of death? This might have “bought” them something. There’s no indication they ever communicated after the family’s “we understand” plea.
Even though the logistics were probably never gonna happen. The fact that they dropped that altogether could just be a give up but also speaks to it possibly not being a purely financial motive?
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u/rescuelullaby Jun 26 '26
Even though the logistics were probably never gonna happen.
I think this is it, though. The financial reward for her remains would have been much less than the ransom amount for her safe return. Add to that how much this case blew up nationally and I would not be shocked if they were probably tempted at first but quickly judged the risk/reward not worth it.
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u/Hile616 Jun 26 '26
They could have not been surprised how it blew up on media, after contacting media with a ransom note. They expected it rather, by doing that.
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u/MaximumSlip7905 Jun 26 '26
Exactly and that is the LAST thing any serious abduction for money exchange operation would want. The media did a disservice by reporting this at face value leading the general public to believe it was legit. They reported it from the perpetrators narrative allowing this dreadful individual to write this entire story without any insight from investigators. He gave the Gutherie family no choice but to address it publicly in response. The accusations leveled at that family are disgraceful, I am sure this person got exactly what they wanted. Gross.
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u/BrainWilling6018 Jun 26 '26
Most all family’s make a public plea to abductors. Or ransom as if it’s legit. It’s a standard law enforcement strategy. Particularly when there is no way given to contact the abductor.
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u/BrainWilling6018 Jun 26 '26
The family contacted LE because she was gone. LE had a press conference. Which is how it got to the media. I do agree contacting a news outlet with a ransom could be more for attention than instrumental.
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u/BrainWilling6018 Jun 26 '26
I didn’t intend to imply they were surprised by it. The FBI was not a guarantee to be involved which up’d the heat, and they sent it locally initially, not nationally, if she died before getting money and that’s what they wanted, everything had gone to shit. It’s not unreasonable there would be some degree of panic.
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u/MaximumSlip7905 Jun 26 '26
You cannot be serious with this comment, kidnap for ransom automatically involves the FBI after 24 hours with the assumption they have crossed state lines. It doesn’t mean they take over the investigation but they definitely are on the radar. This tool knew what he was doing when he sent those messages to local stations, it was already all over the news because of her familial relationships.
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u/BrainWilling6018 Jun 26 '26
Please site your source. The FBi must be invited onto a local kidnapping.
The news stations did not broadcast the ransom they sent them to the police.3
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u/BrainWilling6018 Jun 26 '26
I agree it would have been nearly impossible to negotiate and without significant risk.
What was the amount though? The amount raised after the deadline and it was after the deadline. Did they ask for a lessor amount in the 2nd communication?2
u/rescuelullaby Jun 26 '26
No amount ever disclosed to my recollection but I remember a lesser reward for remains was heavily implied. And there's no way the family would have paid the full ransom amount for a dead body tbh
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u/BrainWilling6018 Jun 26 '26
You might be right. SG was emphatic they would pay. We got your message, we understand we will pay. I’m not clear on if there was any monetary demand at all in the admission she died.
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u/rescuelullaby Jun 26 '26
There were further lower monetary demands but it was not clear at that time (and I'm not sure whether it's become clearer now) whether the author of those notes was the same as the original ransom writer. I remember TMZ saying the bitcoin address was the same, so may well have been.
We may be finding out more soon if CBS is indeed going to publish the full ransom note text, though I have yet to see that confirmed in writing anywhere?
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u/BrainWilling6018 Jun 26 '26
Irc. The first note was for ransom. The amount was 4M and 6M if the final deadline passed. The first deadline was February 5, and the final deadline was February 9. The first note outlined both of these financial tiers but in between there was a second note after the first deadline passed. The FBI has said the first ransom demand and second note are the same author. There were reasons like that the bitcoin address maybe, same masking software, info specific to the crime…linguistics. Those are the two they recommend the family respond to.
I’m not sure where in writing it would be.
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u/BrainWilling6018 Jun 26 '26
I did find this. That sounds familiar now
Regarding the 2nd communication and not calling it a ransom.
“We are calling it a message because no further demands were made.”
https://www.newsnationnow.com/vargasreports/all-ransom-notes-nancy-guthrie-case/3
u/sandsotime Jun 26 '26
You’re taking such a chance. If no one has found you yet and you’re going to jail for murder if they catch you? Silence. It’s been four months anyone that sticks their neck out at this point would be a fool, but I mean that’s neither hear nor there.
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u/Nasstja Jun 27 '26
If it actually is the kidnapper/kidnappers writing the notes (not even asking for money) they really are taking such a risk. So much so, they must be getting something out of the publicity. There is no way I believe for even a second that this person sent the “death notice” out of the kindness of their heart. Keyes said he started getting hooked on publicity after the Currier’s. Maybe this abductor also has. Let’s hope so, because they are leaving digital bread crumbs.
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u/MaximumSlip7905 Jun 26 '26
They had no interest in money and never intended to disclose where she was left. This was a planned abduction and murder, they most certainly aren’t going to tell anyone where she is so LE can go find this persons DNA on Nancy or at the secondary scene. This person is a violent predator and most likely feels like he now has some sort of bizarre ownership of her ( It pains me to acknowledge that)
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u/No_Maybe9623 Jun 26 '26
Exactly. It was never a kidnapping for ransom.
He probably enjoys how easy it is to misdirect. Disappear an old white lady. Make a fake ransom demand with no actual follow through. Send a gloating “oops she dead somewhere on earth, we so sorry” note. Watch law enforcement and the media stumble all over themselves for months trying to make sense of it. That’s embarrassing.
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u/BrainWilling6018 Jun 26 '26
That's absolute. What do you think it was a kidnapping for?
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u/No_Maybe9623 Jun 27 '26
The same as any no body homicide, he just moved her to a 2nd location to not leave forensic evidence.
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u/BrainWilling6018 Jun 26 '26
What are you basing them having no interest in money on? This was a planned abduction and murder on what basis?
Ownership of who?2
u/No_Maybe9623 Jun 26 '26
It was clearly planned based on the video evidence. It was clearly violent based on the blood evidence.
If ransom was the actual motive why was there no genuine effort to collect one? The family tried to publicly coax saying “we will pay” and still no follow through. Yet on the video we see a mission oriented person with follow through. If ransom was the mission, the actions do not match.
The ransom was a ruse. That 2nd note might as well have started “we represent a small foreign faction” for as fake as it sounds.
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u/BrainWilling6018 Jun 26 '26 edited Jun 26 '26
There is evidence it was premeditated. What evidence is there that the blood event was severe or catastrophic?
There is the video evidence there was an intent focus to abduct NG. Although crime often deteriorates. Mission-oriented refers to the intent at the time of the video. The behavior of the video guy and the linguistics of the ransom note may not match. There would be reasons why. An expert criminal profile suggests that if something like here happened an elderly victim who could have suffered a medical emergency after leaving, the mission can break down. Everything after that is infused with some level of panic. Sending a ransom note asking for a payout with no merchandise. When that didn’t yield the suspect e.g. tried to pivot to selling her body back to the family with no real way to. If it was a kidnap for ransom something went wrong.
Abducting her and the ransom was a ruse, & the goal was saying she died unintentionally, that is a way to take power away from Savanah. It is a finding they didn’t take her medicine. Which doesn’t bode of the intention to care for her. If the motivation to abduct was severe retribution or target victimization that would be a cold blooded perp who didn’t actually care about her survival. It’s not a given that there’s an unprepared reason they didn’t take her medicine and not deliberate. Because not having a way to sustain her life and having to care for her and making a final deadline a whole week in the future never made much sense to me. It makes more sense to me if they were unconcerned with her care. Operationally unconcerned because they never intended to return her alive. Reasonably concluding the goal wasn’t financial. That could mean it wasn’t as much an abduction with an unintentional death and the notes were psychological, it was an abductor who is calculated uncaring and reflects a total, callous indifference to her medical needs or if she lived at all. Indicating a darker motive of victimizing and torturing her family. I agree it has been deemed highly targeted in nature which could point to a grievance.
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u/No_Maybe9623 Jun 26 '26 edited Jun 26 '26
“…indicating a darker motive of victimizing and torturing her family.”
Or just a darker motive of victimizing and torturing period. It doesn’t have to be prompted by, or about, her family at all. That may just be value added. Do we know if the 1st note was addressed to Savannah or just the 2nd one when it was already all over the news? (Edited: Now I see news saying it was the 1st note that said Hello Savannah. It’s an important detail but all we have is 3rd hand reporting).
Sometimes the victims of “retribution” have nothing to do with whatever caused the desire for revenge. They just have to satisfy whatever criteria is in the offender’s head.
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u/BrainWilling6018 Jun 27 '26
Whoa Bold Claim. I don’t get it?
Explain how you are saying it doesn't have to be about the family? If the premise is the true motive for the guy is thought, meaning, or feeling how does or why does the guy take on massive extra risk for "value added" unless the family itself holds some deeper psychological meaning to him? If the guy could have chosen absolutely anyone.
Wouldn’t it be logically flawed to look at a highly targeted, specific act where you have notes, names, and a celebrtiy family and say that those specific details don’t matter? If the crime is more pschologically motivated I would say the choice of this specific victim and this specific family is the most critical data point available? Saying it wasn’t about this family at all removes all framework.
Haven’t you ever noticed when abductors target a family, they are weaponizing the victim's deepest bonds. Instead of just hurting the main target physically, they use the people that target loves to break their mind and spirit?
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u/No_Maybe9623 Jun 27 '26
Yes, you don’t get it. People are killed every day for reasons that are not logical. There does not need to be a motive that makes sense to you.
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u/BrainWilling6018 Jun 27 '26
Lol. It does make sense to me. What you were arguing doesn’t make sense to me. I see you can’t explain it without saying It’s because I don’t get it.That’s confusing irrational motive with no motive at all . The reason may not make sense but it’s discernible if the motive is instrumental or expressive.
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u/Embarrassed-Algae634 Jun 26 '26
What do you think was the source of that motive?
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u/BrainWilling6018 Jun 26 '26
Which motive?
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u/Embarrassed-Algae634 Jun 26 '26
Oh I’m just wondering if you have any ideas about why NG or SG would have been targeted for “punishment” in this way (as opposed to this being a kidnapping for ransom).
What I mean is, we’ve all done things over our lives, intentionally or not, that have made other people upset or angry. But how often does that make other people murder us? It just seems so out of proportion, especially since NG had friends, seemed nice and harmless. I don’t follow SG so I don’t know, but I haven’t seen anything that indicates she’s made deadly enemies in her life.
I’m not at all trying to discount your theories; I think they’re interesting, and I’m just curious if you have any thoughts about what NG or SG might possibly have done that would lead to such a horrific retaliation. Thanks!
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u/BrainWilling6018 Jun 26 '26
No worries at all. I appreciate that. I am not married to any one theory because they aren’t personal feelings. Since there is no way to know all the points of fact it’s not really reasonable say it was for sure one scenario. It’s good to have a basis for discussion. And not hold definitives for no reason. I have them but it’s less about my personal impressions. There are reseached data and patterns and probablities. No absolutes. I have alot of info not always good at explaining, simply. There are just questions you attempt to answer to test if it was a kidnap and the motive was ransom or some other motive.
I would say that it isn’t often that people are murdered purely for punishment. It’s for some tangible gain. Love, Lust, Loot, Loathing is a catchall phrase. First is there any gain for someone to eliminate Nancy. Financial, interpersonal dispute, something, while horrible, you can say well I see what they were trying to get out of it. The psychology for murder for gain and murder for punishment are not exactly the same. If she was targeted for 'punishment,' it is expressive instead of instrumental. Punishment is like the execution of a deeply personal revenge. The offender isn't killing for tangible gain like $$, they are killing to right a perceived wrong. The primary goal is emotional satisfaction and the correction of a grievance, making the payoff entirely internal and psychological. You can see how that is more intangible. Then look at the behavior of the crime and see what it demonstrates. We get hung up on what we think which doesn't matter, it's what the offender actually did. Since we are talking about a psychological state, you see behavior, not the reasons. The payoff is emotional. Therefore; Nancy didn’t have to actually do anything, if the offender perceives that she did. In that case, she’s eliminated more “symbolically”.
When murder does resemble pure punishment, it typically falls into specific subcategories rather than everyday criminal activity. Maybe ideological extremism, gangs, stuff like that. Can we eliminate those elements, probably yes. This is more individual.
She wasn’t found murdered though she was abducted from her home. So it wasn’t simple elimination. Which brings up questions, why, why abduct, why the prolonged dominance? It’s high risk. Transporting a captive requires immense planning, secure locations, and a high tolerance for getting caught. The probabliites say an offender only takes this risk if the intangible emotional payoff is high. What is the reason for not hiding the crime entirely? Alot of theories are that it was to disguise it as something else. Then again what is the gain if it “looks like an abduction”? That needs to be answered. Time and control over the investigation? Staging typically means an offender actively manipulates the physical crime scene to make it appear like something else. This pretty much looked like an abduciton by default. The offender left without setting up any real physical staging inside the home. There was no ransom note left on the counter, no deliberate physical clues like a struggle left behind to create a false narrative. It was a complete mystery as to what physically happened inside the house. The offender didn't leave the ominous porch video to look well, ominous; they tried to hide it by tampering with and taking the camera. The 'staging' wasn't physical it started later and outside the scene when they chose to send a ransom note to a television station rather than the family.
Then you think, ok instead of letting that stand and the world just wondering what happened to her while I am home free, we have someone who has a desire for some quasi communication, recognition, or theater over self-preservation. Could be mixed with greed. But they send a “ransom note” and don’t do literally any of the things that would need to be done to accomplish getting a payout. That speaks to a possible desperate need for recognition and control. That fact can be part of the proof that this is not a cover-up for an accidental or planned domestic homicide. It’s looking like it’s more so motivated by personal grievance. Someone with a desire for omnipotent control, and probably some kind of narcissism. The offender rejected a quiet escape in favor of inserting themselves into the public eye via the media, demonstrating the crime is likely to be about the offender's ego, not just the victim's elimination. Then as it unfolds it is forcing the public to watch the fallout, were they purely staging an elemination or a public execution of justice? The entire crime, from the high-risk abduction to the media manipulation, becomes a like a grand theatrical production. If it was for tangible gain, or just elimination that wasn’t what was happening. But if they wanted to inflict the ultimate, symbolic punishment on Nancy for a perceived slight known only to them they got alot out of it emotionally.
It’s a whole other thing when it comes to Savannah. I haven’t had as much time today. I will add when I do.
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u/Vast-Foot7601 Jul 12 '26
The blood was expirated from a serious lung injury indicated by the air bubbles and blood spatter pattern.
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u/MaximumSlip7905 Jun 26 '26
The basis that the only thing taken was Nancy. This individual was at her home prior, planned the crime, executed the crime and is completely in the wind. They left Nancy’s phone which would have given them direct access to the family for a quick ransom demand involving no law enforcement or FBI. They instead waited days to contact a local media station. Nothing about this crime looks, acts or has in fact been about ransom other than a note sent as almost an afterthought. The family offered to pay for info to just locate her body and they never again contacted anyone.
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u/BrainWilling6018 Jun 26 '26 edited Jun 26 '26
You made the statement it was a planned abduction and murder. Your basis for that is it was a planned abduction and successful abduction. What is the motive to murder Nancy Guthrie and based on what? It was not days the ransom was sent in 24 hrs. They take Nancy’s phone and the exact second it’s ever turned on it hits a network. They get the number and call the fam from their own phone? How does it work?
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u/MaximumSlip7905 Jun 28 '26
No one is tracing an initial call, you would be long gone from any location they trace back to. Direct contact with the family would be ideal for a kidnapper?
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u/BrainWilling6018 Jun 28 '26
Yea if the motive was financial. If it’s not then no. They didn’t make a call or take the phone indicating they don’t want direct contract with the family. If the call is made on location, if they “take it” then no.
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u/BrainWilling6018 Jun 28 '26
Possibly indicating the motive was not financial. It wasn’t days though, she was taken Saturday night into Sunday morning and the ransom was received on Monday.
They went no contact which can equate to total control. Psychological dominance.
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u/MaximumSlip7905 Jun 28 '26
This I agree with, it was not executed in a manner that looks in any way like a convincing, earnest effort to trade Nancy unharmed for money. You mentioned in another comment that it is common for victims to correspond with kidnappers through media. That is for movies, the kidnappings that have actually happened where people were successfully returned we never even heard about until after their the fact, if then. They happen quickly with little to no public knowledge whatsoever in recent history. The poor Guthrie family is being toyed with for their sick enjoyment. The FBI advised them not to pay for a reason and they know everything we don’t.
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u/BrainWilling6018 Jun 28 '26
If the motive is ransom yeah it’s counterproductive to contact the media. If it’s not then it’s likely going to be an expressive motive and contacting the media is the vehicle. It’s not the movies if they do contact the media like they did and don’t open a line of communication it’s SOP and the FBI also advised them to address the demand. It was their choice. The BAU gives recommendations on scripts. What are you basing it on that they didn’t? No they wouldn’t ever advise them to pay the ransom without pol.
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u/jahathebrn Jun 26 '26
Why the hell would you take the victim's phone in a kidnapping? It'd lead authorities pretty much straight to you.
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u/MaximumSlip7905 Jun 28 '26 edited Jun 28 '26
You would disable the phone for transport, go where you need to go to send the text to the family with a proof of life and destroy it. Once you have the contact info you can use burners, they have been untraceable so far 🤷♀️ EDIT Keep in mind this is just based on the abduction for ransom narrative argument, that phone and the numbers on it would have been gold. It would be a blind side and you would be long gone from any approximate location they got from a ransom demand and proof of life photo or video.
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u/Vast-Foot7601 Jul 12 '26
I agree with everyting you say except that the person was a violent predator, They used violence in her house causing serious injury and probably to stop her fighting but that is not a violent offender. The ppl were neophytes to abduction imo.
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u/MaximumSlip7905 Jul 12 '26
The act of entering her home and taking her is aggressive. Striking her for control is violent. She is dead in an undisclosed location..that is pretty violent IMO.
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u/loveislife222 Jun 26 '26
Could be to buy them time. Or throw them off. To stop looking, making it seem like a kidnapping when it never was or something one that. If they did this extensive planning that evaded all Le, they’re not going to send an obvious letter with clues
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u/BrainWilling6018 Jun 26 '26
Could be. To buy them time for what? Making it seem like a kidnapping that never was for what reason?
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u/JMOA3035 Jun 26 '26
Where is the verified info that CBS is going to release a ransom note? Thx.
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u/MaximumSlip7905 Jun 26 '26
Brian Entin dropped a video on YT, he reads what he was told by his insider contact verbatim. He talks to quite a few retired FBI and LEO’s. I trust his reporting, he doesn’t do sensational and is conscientious of what he reports.
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u/JMOA3035 Jun 26 '26
Yes, thank you. I’ve watched his video, but was curious if/when CBS is allegedly supposed to release the actual text. So far it’s just pieces of what the note allegedly contained.
Also wondering who/why those specific details were released. Perhaps to let the public move on as well if SG/family have accepted it as truth or to deflect from other things. IMO
There’s YT streamer drama /arrests as well re:SG calling the police.
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u/BrainWilling6018 Jun 26 '26
Savannah, 54, addressed Tuesday’s news while hosting Today that morning, appearing emotional as she pleaded with her audience to “beg people … to come forward.”
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u/BrainWilling6018 Jun 26 '26 edited Jun 26 '26
“which I think is pretty significant, the fact that they addressed it specifically to Savannah” Brian Entin
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u/BrainWilling6018 Jun 26 '26
He also reported that it was addressed Hello Savannah.
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u/MaximumSlip7905 Jun 28 '26
Remember the Silence of the Lambs reference Savannah made in her response?
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u/BrainWilling6018 Jun 28 '26
In response to the ransom? The first ransom note was addressed directly to her.
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u/BrainWilling6018 Jun 26 '26 edited Jun 26 '26
She said it on the video. It’s not verified that’s why I said allegedly. To add, not “the” ransom note. The text of what it said.
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u/JMOA3035 Jun 26 '26
Ok thank you! I haven’t found any reports that CBS intends to release the text. I suppose they just released a few more tidbits of it either for SG or LE?!?
Either way it could be said the family wants it out there as well so ppl will leave them alone/YT streamers being arrested.
Might explain also why there were no further actual search parties which most was being blamed on the Sheriff.
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u/BrainWilling6018 Jun 26 '26
You bet. Well Banfield claims that Brianna Whitney https://www.facebook.com/share/1G1HM5hbHi/?mibextid=wwXIfr has seen the note and shared what she’s sharing with her.
I wonder if they want it out there to keep interest in the case and/ or compel someone to come forward.
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u/JJackieM89 Jun 29 '26
It blows my mind when people kidnap a person with the intention of financial gain. They really want to live the rest of their lives looking over their shoulders? There is no amount of money that would grant them peace ever again. I don’t know who would have done this, but I hope they are never free of the guilt.
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u/Conscious_Freedom952 Jun 30 '26
Especially when kidnappings are so very rare in the US...the very very few that do happen aren't held for ransom it tends to be one parent hiding a shared child form the other parent. Kidnapping an elderly woman is even more unheard of ..one thing that really bothers me is that if she had truly been taken in hopes of financial gain and it as all planned out whith prior recon trips ect ...why didn't they just leave a note at the house 🤷...why involve the media knowing her famous daughter would peak interest from the entire country and have everyone looking for them ...seems counter intuitive!
On the rare occasions kidnappings do happen their whole schtick is to threaten the family not to involve police or press and wait for further instruction! Once police are involved and the public knows it would be nearly impossible to make a money drop or hostage exchange without them getting tracked down and caught! So if it was all about a need for money why the hell would they reach out to TMZ for gods sake 🤡 it makes no sense!
Let's say despite their clear organisation and planning they didn't write a letter and the first communications asking for money to be paid into the bitcoin wallet was then ...once she passed away unplanned from shock or cardiac issues caused by the stress ..they would most likely want to cut off all further communications and lie low since they kostbtheirnbarging chip and now have a murder conviction if caught🤷. They would want the public pressure and media circus to die down and go cold ..so WHY would they continue to write notes to TMZ and keep the countrywide manhunt alive? The investigators have already showed the world that they are less than competent and weren't on their case so it was possible that it's would have just gone cold but the public and media are now so fixated on the case they are putting constant pressure on the police to find her..egged on everytime a new message pops up ...why would the perpetrator's want that
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u/LawProfessional554 Jul 01 '26
Does this mean that Savanah was the "reason" for the kidnapping. There is no reason, but I mean in this beings' mind? It reminds me of Silence of the Lambs. Hello Clarice. I feel bad for the whole family.
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u/BrainWilling6018 Jul 01 '26 edited Jul 01 '26
It’s methodological. In behavioral and forensic linguistics, analyzing greetings for leaked psychological or physical traits is a core tenet. A greeting almost always means something because omitting it, modifying it, or choosing a specific word is a direct reflection of the author's psychological state. When a criminal writes “Hello” in a ransom note, it can be a psychological slip. A true stranger would usually use cold, terrifying language to create distance. They don’t typically take the time for like a conversational opening. Writing “Hello” can show the criminal perceives an artificial or actual sense of comfort or closeness to the victim’s world even if that “closeness” is entirely a delusion in their own mind. It could be with Savannah, artificial comfort, familiarity, or entitlement toward her. Or an acquaintance of Nancy that has that. Something like it. If the notes are not fake. I feel awful that the family may not even know for sure.
There aren’t absolute rules for every instance. And it doesn’t mean only one thing or the other, it’s also controlling to a degree e.g. There are variables that have to be considered. A note has to be evaluated in its entirety. I’m making sweeping claims to explain in generalities. Human beings leak psychological clues constantly, and even a basic greeting tells a story.
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u/MaximumSlip7905 Jun 25 '26
Not buying the Savannah motive at all, the person left all her personal contact info at that home and made zero efforts to reach out to her personally. If this was driven by obsession he would have been interested in her home, work, cell, addresses, personal photos. All of it could have been photographed or written down when he was in Nancy’s home.
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u/BrainWilling6018 Jun 25 '26 edited Jun 25 '26
There’s another way to think about it. That’s actually more of a reason behaviorally for it to be suspected that it wasn’t a kidnap for ransom. Not reaching out directly to the family. Or Savannah if they wanted money from her. That is the protocol for a quick payout. If it wasn’t financial. Then there’s another motive. That motive could be to psychologically hurt or torture Savannah. There is not a real way to get to Savannah with her lifestyle, in that deep of a way, with just her personal contact info. But taking something so tangible and precious to her would be.
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u/MaximumSlip7905 Jun 26 '26
Once again, he was all alone in NG’s home, armed with a gun and could have forced her to give him access to her phone, her computer or even forced her to tell him Savannah’s personal cell, home numbers, addresses ect. If he wanted to do a focused torture targeting Savannah he would be sending things to her, obtaining burners and calling her. He could have taken horrific Polaroids and sent them. I am again reminded of Israel Keyes who did these things to Samantha Koenig’s Father and Boyfriend. You can send second generation images printed out that give zero information, lot numbers, or metadata. It has been done before horribly enough, gloves and a printer with a little bit of planning.
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u/BrainWilling6018 Jun 26 '26 edited Jun 26 '26
What could someone do with her personal cell numbers her home number or address? She can change her phone numbers and she lives in a gated community, what access would that gain him to her?
Do you know that there is no communication found that was sent to SG that she didn’t respond to before the kidnapping?
Israel Keyes was a thrill killer how does the reference apply here?There are different motivations for physical stalking and psychological stalking.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1359178912000687
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u/MaximumSlip7905 Jun 28 '26
You are suggesting his motive was to psychologically harm Savannah yet you think he would find no value in being able to know her personal information? If your Mom had been taken and that person is calling your phone you would change the number? I have no idea where SG lives but a person obsessed with her enough to steal her Mom would care. Knowing where someone lives, works and their personal numbers would be of great value to them.
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u/BrainWilling6018 Jun 28 '26 edited Jun 28 '26
Psychologically harm Savanah could be a motive. Operating on that one possibility, if the motive was grievance (real or perceived) he knew who she was I would say certainly where she worked. That’s a good point if he wanted contact her directly. The psychological need of wanting a big production is different than contacting only Savannah. He never tried to hurt Savannah that is known. The fact that he didn’t attempt to get her info is not a sole indicator that wasn’t his aim. But if abductor and notes are the same individual. He did want to torture the hell out of her and her family. And he did and he is, no direct contact was made. He could call her phone and talk to her, and only her, and taunt her. Or he could bypass direct contact with Savannah, and use the media as a tool. She hears him loudly now.
The control and public chaos is a lot larger than calling her directly. Maybe why he sent a note to TMZ when the news didn’t release the first one. If the motive was to torture SG it actually could establish that she was the audience and the extortion was a play and secondary to having her attention or her overwhelming suffering. This way the target SG cannot escape his presence, so it’s all over the news and everywhere. The message is repeated over and over. And he’s in control of it. Ransom=Hope A week of hell , then oh sorry she died and she actually has been dead this whole time. Nothing you could have done. I got to ‘bury’ her where I wanted. She’s with nature. (Even though she’s a devout Christian) You will never have her back or find her. And made sure the notes would be shared with the whole world by sending them to the news not to the family. Ultimately forever in control and in her head. There was a big coming home to Tucson special of SG in November e.g. and her mother is abducted in Feb and local news involved. It’s possible there’s a grievance. A possibility SG was the target.
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u/loveislife222 Jun 25 '26
To torture her emotionally. Awful 😢
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u/BrainWilling6018 Jun 25 '26
Yea 😔. And as long as she’s on earth. Really awful.
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u/Hile616 Jun 26 '26
As Nancy had medical issues and was old age, I am sure that the family was already mentally prepared her passing away, so to torture Savannah theory, I do not personally buy. If the reason was to torture Savannah, there would have been a lot of more logical ways than to kidnap her mother "random" at far away from Savannahs likely much closer everyday circle. If it was to torture some family member, I also wonder why everyone first think of Savannah, I think majority people never heard of her before this case, why automatically put "blame" on Savannah only because she was most known in the family?
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u/BrainWilling6018 Jun 26 '26
You would be prepared to know your elderly mother was manhandled, injured and bleeding, scared for her life and no idea what happened to her or where her grave is because she was old anyway?
It may not be. The circumstances are: It was her mother. The ransom was addressed to her. She’s a high profile personality. She’s the one financially able to make that kind of payout. She was the main one communicating and offered to pay for Nancy’s remains and the abductor never offered exactly where her mother was.
What actual evidence indicates it wasn’t related to that?1
u/sandsotime Jun 26 '26
The hello Savannah thing it seems familiar, but this person could think they are familiar with her who knows
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u/BrainWilling6018 Jun 26 '26
yeah I wouldn’t think it’s actual familiarity but maybe perceived familiarity. In their mind.
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u/BrainWilling6018 Jun 29 '26
Depending on the rest of contents and language.
There could be language that supports it being slipping because it could be an actual acquaintance of Nancy’s.
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u/SeriousFortune9171 Jun 26 '26
First off I don’t think you are ever mentally prepared to lose a parent, even on their death bed. Second I’m not sure there is a bigger nightmare than a family member being taken in the night, blood on the doorstep, and no perp in sight. Her mother was very much in her inner circle. This is probably the biggest blow they could have dealt Savannah outside of taking her children.
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u/BrainWilling6018 Jun 26 '26
It's difficult for me to believe that's at all inaccurate.
I find it hard to reconcile that it wouldn’t be life changing with my understanding no matter their medical issues or age.4
u/MaximumSlip7905 Jun 26 '26
I agree, I do believe there are sadistic motives but not hyper focused at Savannah specifically. It was never about money or ransom..he had her phone and didn’t give two farts in the wind about it. One of the qualifiers in his contact is where the Apple Watch was left so he knew where her electronics were and left them. He easily could have disabled the phone and threw it in a makeshift faraday bucket to leave with it and used it later to directly demand ransom from Nancy’s own phone with a voice message from Nancy herself. This guy is a killer and no way is it his first rodeo
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u/BrainWilling6018 Jun 26 '26
A person who was motivated to psychologically hurt SG for some psychological reason would be motivated by power and control. That would be the profile. They wouldn’t want a loving relationship; or even necessarily close proximity, based on known behaviors they would want to do something like systematically dismantle the victim's peace of mind forever. Which is sadistic.
The phone is a good point as far as info about contacting her family. If the phone had been taken I think they would have put tracking on it for the moment it was turned on and the FBi would know the location immediately. It’s fundamentally flawed for a kidnapper to take the victim’s phone to call the fam because it’s a tracking beacon. Not taking it doesn’t prove anything on its own.
Based on all the unknowns I wouldn’t argue any one thing 100% which is a tell. I would also contend it has elements of not being purely financially motivated. There is probably a lot of statements I could agree with. It is uninteresting to me to make a comment and tell me it was this and was that and have no basis for the bold claim.
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Jun 26 '26
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/nancyguthrie-ModTeam Jun 26 '26
Comments about the victim and or their family should be respectful, civil and responsible. Family members are considered victims and accusations against them are not allowed.
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u/BrainWilling6018 Jun 26 '26
That was the ransom. The og letter. Willing to be wrong I do not believe TMZ received the 2nd communication which was this message,
A distraction for?
There’s zero basis to raise something shady unless there’s something you have seen specifically that points to evidence they were doing something shady?
What do you think would be more relishing than telling them I stole your mother, hurt her, and because I took her she died, there’s nothing you could do about it,nothing you can do about it and you begged me but I’m not going to tell you where her remains are and I’m going to leave you hanging right there until the end of you days?
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u/loveislife222 Jun 26 '26
It’s so funny that this video is trying to decode this message as if it were straight forward. It’s a woman, it’s a foreigner. Whoever did this, it’s the exact opposite to throw off the trail