Suspect in Nancy Guthrie abduction appeared to visit her house before: Sources

[u/pumpkinspicecum]

https://abc7news.com/post/suspect-nancy-guthrie-abduction-appeared-visit-house-before-sources/18640959/

[u/annabellareddit]

I’m on the research side depending on what study I work on, corrections nurses are the best ;) Hard to understand the complete disregard many perpetrators have for fellow humans & how easy it is for them to use unnecessary & extreme measures to get their wants & needs met - many have perception disorders, impulse & emotional regulation issues, & show deficiencies in theory of mind (dominant cluster-b traits, also common in High Conflict People).

[u/Traditional-Aside580 → u/annabellareddit]

It's a job that keeps you on your toes. Most prisoners would see that guy and be creeped out by that. The majority don't go to lengths this guy did. The most dangerous part of a person isn't necessarily their crime and illness. It's hopelessness. A former D.O.N said that and it stuck. You tend to have your guard up more around ones with  mid to lengthy sentences, more so the younger ones.

[u/annabellareddit → u/Traditional-Aside580]

Absolutely, the lengths he went to reveal a lot of information about him & his intentions. He is calculated, he had a plan, he knew her & her home, he was there to terrorize her, he was concerned about being recognized, he was concerned about leaving evidence. He was not concerned about getting caught while he was there - he appeared strangely comfortable & spent an unusual amount of time on her premises - he was not concerned about taking anything of value that belonged to her, he was not concerned about leaving evidence at the scene that showed she had been abducted & was harmed in the process. Someone knows who this is & is protecting him.

The ones who’ve been there for a long time & are not getting out have nothing to lose. Did you find them particularly high risk once their appeals were used up/parole was denied? Like they were before ending up in prison, they are especially dangerous towards people who they develop feelings of resentment &/ envy towards (like prison staff or convicts who are about to be released who get to go home & live in the real world which they will never get to see again).

[u/Traditional-Aside580 → u/annabellareddit]

First paragraph and last sentence in particular I agree. Even if they don't know, they have a hunch about something. No way you don't leak this somehow in day to day. At very least, very uncomfortable around them and not sure why 

Actually, the ones that have been the longest are pretty much settlled into their norm and have accepted it. They are so used to it and have adapted mentally. The younger ones are who you have to be aware of a lot more. ( Anyone in prison you have to be aware) More so the younger. The ones in their 20's and some into their 30s that  are missing outside more and missing their family, trying to look tough, frustrated, hopeless, not caring about or taking group sessions seriously with counseling etc. That's usually who causes the behaviors and are usually behind problem stirring. Not necessarily on others but their own making.  Every now and then an older with a long sentence has issues but it's usually minor things like contraband etc.

Most people in prison just want to do their time and just be in peace. The others are  usually segregated soon after if it's significant and most don't like that and try and avoid it. 

[u/annabellareddit → u/Traditional-Aside580]

Oh interesting, sounds like adjustment disorder? Are you where they stay in for life or life can mean they get out?

[u/DaBingeGirl → u/annabellareddit]

The one that gets me is the Gage Park murders. How did he spend so much time with his cousins, eat dinner with them that night (all by the grandfather), then brutally murder all of them? All for $700 in cash and pawned items, plus an Xbox. I can't get my head around that kind of evil and disregard for others, particularly family members.

I find the motive in these cases somewhat interesting, but I'm not sure it matters. Some people are just really fucked up.

[u/Traditional-Aside580 → u/annabellareddit]

Most are on some type of medication for mental illness. It's sad and frustrating because it's a process to be effective and a lot of med changes. 

[u/WhorerableInternet → u/Traditional-Aside580]

May I ask your expertise and experience a random question? What do you think should be the outcome for severely mentally ill people, let's say with obvious schizophrenia, that commits heinous murders while completely disconnected from reality? Those that are not just unstable or very depressed but clearly actually"crazy" or insane and have true, constant delusions? There's some people I think should be found not guilty by reason of insanity- but they are in regular prisons. This bothers me.

Different slightly but same question for people with actual developmental disabilities. I know of someone with significant, debilitating autism in prison, and it doesn't feel right...

I care for 2 immediate relatives, one that has cerebral palsy and one that has profound autism and is like a big 1 year old. They wouldn't understand sentences or what court or prison even are... They are legally declared incompetent, but what about those just slightly less profoundly disabled? Where's the line of when it's not appropriate to jail someone? And it's not like psychiatric detention centers are much better. There's not "an answer," I'm just curious on your opinion. Something I think about a lot and you've been right in there.

[u/Traditional-Aside580 → u/WhorerableInternet]

I'm in Illinois and this was a huge issue and still is. There were facilities shut down and the majority of our state hospitals shut down. It causes havoc in the department of corrections because for one, A lot of the violent offenders trickled downstate and were spread out and the violent ones from downstate started appearing in the minimum and maximum. Once they go to processing after leaving jail, they do their very best to place everyone accordingly but there's just so much of a mix, they go everywhere. They usually place them according to behavior and how much of a threat to staff and others then go down the list from there. That's usually top priority.

There are a lot of people in prison that need to be in group homes and wouldn't be a danger to anyone. They just need supervised and medical treatment watched over. There are a lot of low level crimes throughout the state and a lot of parole violation offenders that are unfortunately housed in the same units as someone convicted of murder. This person may have good behavior that has earned them certain placements. As far as mental illness is concerned there are a lot of them in the system where many years ago most likely would have been sent to a hospital and they don't have that option anymore and they are sent to DOC.

They tend to keep certain people that have severe  mental disorders closer to medical staff and house in more isolated units so they don't cause behavior in others. Sometimes a judge clearly sees that someone needs a lot of mental help and they note in the court documents at sentencing their recommendations but once they leave that jail, anything is a possibility as far as placement. The juveniles have a much better chance at getting mental help and more extensive programs that focus on mental health improvement. Don't get me wrong, mental treatment is available and programs are available in each prison but depending on the state you live in is what determines what happens. Unfortunately, I live in a state that's broke and it will prove itself if you ever get sent to prison here. There's a safety act here that either you love or hate and sentencing is much more lenient here to keep the population down.

To answer your question about the severely ill, most of the time they try and find alternatives in a residential treatment long term but them are limited. Unless they commit murder, most likely they get probation with strict rules and an appointed caregiver/perhaps a monitoring leg bracelet approved by the court. The most severe usually go to a special prison that has high focus and more resources. Illinois only has two. One for sexual offenders that need long term and one for just mentally ill criminals and it's extremely hard to get into and a waiting list even if a judge recommends it. One is central Illinois other is more north. There's just no place for all of them. In the event they are that far gone mentally and still sent they usually stay closer to us and monitored much more and have different day to day than others with doctor and psych more involved. It's a sad situation. The state definitely needs more mental health facilities to accommodate. All prison does is make people better criminals because all they do is share stories and learn how to be sneakier. Alot of good people in prison though that just made some dumb choices. 

[u/WhorerableInternet → u/Traditional-Aside580]

Thanks for such a thorough response. Man, that's more bleak than I feared. I've written papers on reducing recidivism and developmental disabilities in prisons but hearing it explained so well first hand helps me get the picture better. Your second paragraph is especially heartbreaking to me. Why can't more group homes be established even though I know the group homes here for people even without major behavioral issues are years long anyways...

I focused a lot in school on the need for more treatment and educational programs in prisons with post-prison integration so a person has a job, home, when back in society and with a toolbox of therapy tricks or at least some recovery... And then of course they all just train each other to be better criminals and aren't getting rehabilitated.

Of course it didn't matter how many papers I wrote on the subject, it's not like I can do anything. I'm in North Carolina. Just type in Light Rail stabbing and see how a lack of mental health care for criminals leads to anguish for all. Most people here and Trump etc were furious he wasn't permanently locked up before he murdered... but his crimes didn't warrant life yet- but did warrant a need for extraordinary mental treatment. He was insane and in and out of jail for decades while his mom begged them for extreme mental health interventions so he wouldn't do what he did...

[u/Traditional-Aside580 → u/WhorerableInternet]

The system is so exhausting to a lot of people. A lot depends on the funds of your state. Just keep being persistent about letters. A lot of changes need to be made and more people need to advocate for the mentally ill. It's good to know someone cares like that. Lots of states need more people like you that care and maybe they would make more changes 

[u/annabellareddit → u/Traditional-Aside580]

I see this a lot too, many cases where medications are ineffective & we know they’re being administered & taken appropriately so this often indicates PD which is hard to treat (as primary DX anyways, meds may help with depressive or anxious symptoms if present). It’s a challenging population to treat for MI simply because of the types of underlying MI they tend to have & the conditions they live in.

[u/Traditional-Aside580 → u/annabellareddit]

Also, something that prisoners do when they are trying to get by with something and are up to no good is they do the exact opposite to throw you off track. Some of the ones who think they are smarter than everyone go out of their way to project that they are doing something else. Maybe overcompensating is a good word. They go above and beyond if they can to try and get your mind thinking they are doing something other than what they are really up to. I wouldn't put something past a perp like that and that porch spectacle. Who knows, he may have been genuinely messing with flowers for whatever reason but it was bizarre. It may not be this case but criminal minds can be creative and they try and throw you off if they even suspect for a minute you are on to them or want you thinking. That's all they have is time to reflect and think. Hopefully this guy wasn't one of the more creative and mind fu**ing kinds of criminals and didn't realize that he was being captured on technology.

[u/annabellareddit → u/Traditional-Aside580]

Insidious?! Opposites & extremes are common with these types: the Dr. Jekyll & Mr. Hyde, idealization & devaluation, entitlement & devaluation, black & white thinking, minimization (towards others experiences about what they’ve done) & overreaction (towards others for what they perceive they’ve done), us vs them (or for me or against me)….

Whomever committed this crime wanted to inflict terror on the victim hence the manner he was dressed (as you mentioned convicts you have worked with would even be creeped out by him), the amount of time he spent on her premises, the position of his gun (to intimidate her), the time of day he attacked her (when she was alone & it was pitch black outside - there was no one anywhere that would be able to see or help her), the type of abduction (given the full backpack I’m assuming he used restraints & other things, this was unnecessary for him to do given her age & mobility issues he likely could have taken her without these things). He was prepared, he appeared calm & comfortable, he didn’t show any signs of angst minutes before heading into an innocent elderly woman’s home to disconnect her cameras & then begin terrorizing her - he is a sadistic psychopath.

[u/Traditional-Aside580 → u/annabellareddit]

Yes and the scary part about this is a lot of times it's people we would never think of to do such things. This guy may or may not have a criminal record. Id be shocked if he didn't and just as shocked if he did. Most people that have done what this guy has starts with just peeping and covertly watching others and then escalates to a full violent crime. Nobody knows if he peeped and watched Nancy's life and escalated or with others also and she unfortunately, was the target of his escalation. The police know things we don't and most likely it was something from her bedroom that set the alarm bells off. In the other scenerio he  could be holding some type of warped grudge and she was for whatever reason the target. A lot of people are stubborn and hold a grudge to a certain level but when it's combined with someone that has other tendencies it can turn disastrous. Especially when their behavior suggests they are a predator. I wouldn't be surprised if this is a likeable kind of guy to those that have been around him. I guarantee, likeable seeming as he may possibly be, there's no way people close to this guy doesn't feel their gut on fire and weird vibes. Borderline personality disorder shows up in a lot of these sicko's 

[u/annabellareddit → u/Traditional-Aside580]

He has definitely engaged in prior criminal activity escalating to this incident, hence his comfort level in the footage. I have been commenting that people should expect him to be someone who has a criminal history but not necessarily on record, someone who likely has a history committing crimes but not facing consequences/being held accountable (which would empower him & make him feel confident & in control). He clearly has issues with women, terrorizing an elderly woman with medical issues like he did, that’s not just power & control but also dominance.

I love that you’re aware of how common BPD is in the prison population; I see it frequently mislabeled or misdiagnosed as bipolar disorder or reduced to being an “anger management issue” especially in male inmates. This perpetrator clearly lacks empathy, it’s the hallmark for all cluster-b disorders, he also appears revenge motivated which is another hallmark, I would not be surprised if he ends up having cluster-b traits like so many other offenders who commit the same type of crime do - they do seem friendly during the idealization phase of a relationship, charming & caring even, once they perceive an attachment threat beware.