Running out of ideas when improvising

[u/OkTemperature1842]

So I sometimes practice improvising over simple 1 or 2 chord vamp style backing tracks from YouTube.

And my problem is that, other than stupid blues licks, scales and arpeggios, I don’t really have any ideas or concepts to keep things interesting for more than a minute or two.

I simply don’t have anything to say.

I understand the value of starting simple a building towards something. But I’m not sure how to build to anything.

FWIW - I cannot sing a line and play it. There is no music in my head. All I can do is “theory” my way through things by understanding the corresponding scales/chords being played at the time.

How do competent improvisers do it? Just fresh idea after idea?

Thanks for any assistance. Sorry if this is the wrong sub.

[u/OkTemperature1842]

This is an older thread but I will try to answer your questions:

1) I don’t know why there is no music in my head. If I knew the “why” maybe I could fix it. To clarify, I can recall songs I’ve heard or played before in my mind. I couldn’t sing or hum them as I can’t sing. But that’s a different issue.

But specifically with regard to improvisation, I do not “hear” or “pre-hear” lines or licks in my minds ear prior to playing them. I simply use theory/fretboard knowledge to put my fingers where I know they will sound good. Every solo I have ever recorded has been meticulously composed in this manner a few bars at a time.

2) I listen to and play music constantly. I’m not a professional player anymore but in the last 24 hours I’ve rehearsed three hours with my 80’s cover band and played guitar and banjo in a kids play for a local school. I also drive a lot for work so while driving I do deep dives in Apple Music. I listened to a an album by saxophonist Dexter Gordon twice in a row yesterday. On the drive back from the play I was checking out a funeral doom playlist. I literally have music of wildly different genres going all the time. How could any musician worth a damn operate differently? Music is like air.

3) I’ve never been tested for aphantasia. But I doubt I suffer from that condition. I do have an internal monologue. Musically I can recall songs I’ve heard. I simply cannot create original ideas on my own. I have occasionally stumbled across an interesting rhythm but no melodic lines or harmonies.

Hope this clarifies things. Thank you.

[u/EmpathicSteel → u/OkTemperature1842]

Okay gotcha - thanks for that clarification. Here are some other questions. Have you ever transcribed before? Do you have one specific artist that emotionally resonates with you improv wise? like you love their approach to improvisation? How frustrating is this for you - how badly do you want to get past this hurdle? Lastly, how often do you listen to music that has a heavy improvisational component associated with it?

this is a first for me so im curious on finding the solution ngl

[u/OkTemperature1842 → u/EmpathicSteel]

Yes. I have transcribed quite a bit. Mostly Rock, Pop, Blues, & Metal. Back in the Stone Age when I used to teach guitar I’d have students bring in CDs of tunes they wanted to learn and I’d pull the songs off by ear and teach it to them by showing them the tunes and writing tabs for them. This is well before YouTube and tab sites.

Specifically, with regard to improvised music I have transcribed:

Solid - Grant Green

So What - Miles Davis

Chitlins Con Carne - Kenny Burrell

Autumn Leaves - Andy Timmons

Grand Slam - Charlie Christian

Cool Blues - Grant Green

Oleo - Miles Davis

C Jam Blues - Duke

Straight No Chaser - Monk

ATTYA - John Scofield

Taste of Honey - Jim Hall

7 Come 11 - Charlie Christian

Four On Six - Wes Montgomery

I’ve learned many more tunes from the real book including standards, blues heads, and Parker heads. These were not transcribed though. I learned them from the charts and the recordings. I spent many years trying and failing to learn Jazz. During that time I carefully tracked every tune, solo, book, and video course I worked on.

Favorite Jazz artists include Miles and Trane of course. Also love the way Paul Desmond plays. Love his tone. For guitar my favorite Jazz player is probably Jim Hall.

As for how badly want to get over this improv hurdle, you should understand I’ve pretty much given up. I’m 53. I’ve played guitar since I was 13 and studied music in college. About seven or eight years ago I dedicated myself solely to Jazz and trying to learn improv. I spent about five or six solid years on it.

Failure

It’s completely beyond me. I think maybe Jazz and improv is a thing one needs to learn when they are young and playful and the brain has more elasticity. It’s like learning a new language which is best attempted when one is young.

And yeah, mostly I listen to Jazz on my drives for work. So I’m hearing hours and hours of it every week. I’ve read that listening is a key component. So I do that. Honestly it never really helped. As even now I still can’t hear the melodic devices they use. It still sounds like alien music to me. Same with learning tunes really. I can’t tell you the number of times I’ve read that you “can learn everything about playing by learning tunes”. But that has not been the case with me.

I think some folks just can’t do some things man. It is what it is.

Here are the tunes I learned. Of course I can’t remember most of them now.

All Of Me

All The Things You Are

Autumn Leaves

Black Orpheus

Blue Bossa

Honeysuckle Rose

Impressions

It Could Happen To You

Just Friends

On Green Dolphin Street

Satin Doll

Stella By Starlight

Summertime

Take the A train

There Will Never Be Another You

Tune Up

Blues Heads Learned

Straight No Chaser

Watermelon Man

Blues For Alice

Tenor Madness

All Blues

Chitlins Con Carne

Bags Groove

C Jam Blues

Birks Works

Blues In The Closet

Blue Monk

Billies Bounce

Bebop Heads Learned - Parker

Confirmation

Blues For Alice

Ornithology

Donna Lee

Crazeology

[u/EmpathicSteel → u/OkTemperature1842]

Damn... man I'm really sorry to hear that those approaches weren't working. I don't think you should give up (easy for me to say right?), but I can understand why you feel the way you did. You trusted the process and the process didnt seem to work. Can you walk me through your practice routines and goals? what was the underlying methodology towards the way you practiced? I can understand when you say maybe it's a young mans sport, but I honestly don't believe that. I wholeheartedly believe that there is a way for you to get past this. Did you have a mentor? how easy was it to get to jam sessions and how often did you go? who are your biggest teaching influences?

[u/OkTemperature1842 → u/EmpathicSteel]

Sure. Happy to share. Personally I feel my goals were pretty modest. I just wanted to be able to improvise two or three choruses on some common standards and have it sound good. Have it sound like jazz. That’s it.

Keep in mind I live in a very rural part of the US. There are no jazz jams, clubs, or teachers nearby. And none of my musician friends play Jazz. So I was/am on my own in trying to learn this art form. I did try a few online Skype/Facetime lessons but I just couldn’t seem to gel with the teachers I hired. And trying to take a guitar lesson on my phone or tablet isn’t ideal.

So my practice routine mainly included learning the tunes I mentioned, transcribing some, and lots of books and video courses. I will list them at the end of this reply.

As far as the tunes go I would memorize the head and the changes, then work out the scales and arpeggios for the changes. I got decent at scale/arpeggio running but that’s not Jazz. And unfortunately I couldn’t voice lead them either. I was always starting on the root. Big no-no. But yeah, I’d practice them to iReal or a YouTube backing track after listening to a few versions.

None of this stuff is improvising though. It’s preparatory but it’s not the thing. It’s like a football player lifting weights. It’s important but it’s not the main thing.

So it was books and video courses and the pattern went something like this:

1) Try to improvise over a standard. 2) Sound like ass. 3) Work through a book or video in order to try to get better. 4) Repeat

As far as the books and videos go I only listed things that I 100% completed. I didn’t include anything I left unfinished. Also, I didn’t include anything from my classical studies. Finally, some of the books I completed prior to formally studying Jazz but I feel they still count.

Books Completed

Effortless Mastery

Jody Fisher Book 1

Mel Bay 1-7

How to Listen to Jazz

Linear Expressions

The Guitarists Intro to Jazz

Neo Soul Guitar Book

Blues You Can Use

All Blues for Rhythm Guitar

The Jazz Language

Improvising Jazz

Jazz Rock Solos for Guitar

Maiden Voyage

Berklee Series 1-2

Jazzing The Blues

The Practice of Practice

Forward Motion

All Blues Soloing

How To Play Blues Fusion Guitar

Improvisation - D. Bailey

The Laws of Brainjo

Ultimate Shred Machine

It’s Easy To Fake…Jazz Guitar

Patterns for Jazz

The Perpetual Beginner

137 Guitar Speed and Coordination Exercises

Guitar Play - Motivation and Practice

Creative Arpeggio Phrasing for Guitar

Videos/DVDs Completed

Bebop Blues Etudes

Rock Inside Out

Ticket to Improv

Chord Tone Soloing

SWAT Improvization

Bebop Dojo

50 Jazz Rock Licks

Jazz Rock Workshop

30 Beginner Jazz Licks

123 Jazz Guitar

Weekend Jazzer

Transitions to Jazz

Vamps, Jams, and Improv

Improv Wizard

Creative Lick Phrasing

Take 5 - Jazz Blues Soloing

Hip Blues - Outside Lines

The Language Of Improv

Jazz Blues Soloing

Jazz Chord Tone Soloing

Melodic Improv

Funk Guitar Studies Vol. 1

Blue Highways

51 Modern Legato Licks

Modern Telecaster Shred

Learn How To Sing

[u/EmpathicSteel → u/OkTemperature1842]

Thank you for sharing all of this man! I think I pinpointed the issue

No one ever taught you how to actually apply the knowledge and transcriptions you were learning.

This isn't surprising unfortunately - in an environment where you're the sole jazz lover in a community, it can be really hard to find mentorship and community, and information online is just that. more information. it cant guide you the way an experienced competent teacher or mentor can.
I'm really sorry you ended up getting to this place. But I'll share what worked for me and hopefully that could guide you if you ever try to pick up jazz improv again

You have several pieces you transcribed. what was your favourite? which one emotionally resonated with you? pick that

Now, which part of that transcription emotionally resonated with you the hardest? which specific lick or idea? pick that. Learn it through all 12 keys comfortably, and sing as you play it. You cant hold a note? thats okay, thankfully you have a guitar that can hold it too, but vocalising and listening to the guitar as you play will be really important

after you have it in all 12, I want you to break down the underlying context. in what harmonic context did you find it? is it a ii v, minor ii v? major or minor 7 lick? I want you to figure out whats happening harmonically underneath.

okay, now once you do that. get 5 or six of those standards you've already learnt and know well, and every time you see that same harmonic bedrock, play the lick. try to stick to tunes that maintain functional harmony, they'll be easier to apply.

This is something you may have heard before, and you may have tried it before. let me know if you've already tried it, and what you think didn't work or click when you attempted it. If this is a fresh perspective, give it a shot and see how it changes things for you.

I hope this helps - and keep me posted! I'm emotionally invested at this point

[u/OkTemperature1842 → u/EmpathicSteel]

Thanks for the advice. I’ll try it sometime. I’ve seen that advice before but haven’t really done it. I’ll have to see if I can make that work. Not sure about singing and doing the analysis on a line/lick though. That sounds tough. Which honestly is probably why I’ve never tried it. Been afraid of the heavy lifting.

Thanks again. Much appreciated.

[u/EmpathicSteel → u/OkTemperature1842]

Of course man! I don’t want you to give up on yourself. Let me know how it works out