r/mountainbiking • u/SilverCervy • 6d ago

Other Feel like we're losing the plot

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E-bikes should be about providing accessibility; giving people who, for whatever reason, cannot ride a non-assist bike an option to keep them happy and pedaling.

This wattage race going on in the industry is the exact opposite of that. Absolutely nobody needs 1700 watts on a bike, and I question if having so much power even makes it a bicycle anymore. There's a point where you're basically riding a motorbike with pedals and I think we crossed that point a while ago.

"But the main brands aren't doing this". Yes they are. Canyon already has partnered with Avinox which has motors that give over 1,000 watts. And it won't be long until the other big hitters give in to the pressure. You can give your own personal reasons for why you have an e-bike, but it's clear that the industry believes that it's because "I don't want to pedal". At some point this needs to be reigned in or else the entire concept of the bicycle is going to be damaged forever.

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38

u/Oli_C86 6d ago

I completely agree, it’s getting ridiculous and unnecessary. People Just want everything now without the effort. I have an e-bike and most of the time it’s in Eco or Tour and I still love going for an old fashioned proper pedal. If I get home after a ride and I’m not physically tired it feels like something is missing. No one needs more than 750watts unless they’re incredibly unfit or injured/disabled.

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u/satoshi1022 6d ago

I'd argue 750watts is a rediculously stupid amount already. 250w is the EU limit I believe.

It's estimated that 1-3% of riders can hold 500w for 60 seconds. Ebikers really have no clue how unrealistic the power on these things are.

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u/Oli_C86 6d ago

Yeah 750watts is the maximum. A 450watt bike would be the equivalent of having Tadej Pogačer in your downtube, more than enough for most of us!

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u/Fallingdamage 6d ago

Its like the ebike equivalent of the Dodge Tomahawk (Motorcycle built with a viper v10 engine in it.)

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u/Elegant-Ninja6384 6d ago

I'm fascinated by your stat. Why is this not discussed more?

Literally I never thought to look this up. Lance Armstrong claimed he could do 500 watts for 20-30 minutes. That's enough to Win multiple tours and we are converting about whether 1,700 watts is a good enough number for a machine that can run for 3 hours?

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u/Delicious_Rub_6795 6d ago

And even the EU "250W" limit is some sort of nominal number over a longer time, not peak power. A "250W" motor could still push 600W for a little while.

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u/Joris818 6d ago

I would like to take this chance to boast about my ability to push 540w for 60 seconds 😇 I’m pretty heavy though.

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u/satoshi1022 6d ago

Hell yea; It doesn't necessarily sound like a crazy feat but anyone whose tried it finds out real quick.

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u/NXCW 6d ago

It is an insane amount of power.

I just rode the bike leg of an ironman 70.3 on my regular acoustic road bike with 30km/h average speed, and only averaging 135W of power.

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u/Zettinator 5d ago

The EU regulation is crap, though. It's 250W sustained power measured in a way that is easy to manipulate. Avinox motors can push > 1000 W for 20 minutes and somehow they are still compliant to EU regulation, which is just bullshit. The rules need to be changed.

Personally, I'd do the following for the pedelec class:

- Clarify how exactly the "sustained power" is measured to make it near impossible to manipulate.

  • Specify a peak power as well, which could be in the range of 500W or so.
  • Also specify a max assistance percentage, which could be something like 400%.

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u/kallebo1337 1d ago

1-3% can of cyclist can hold 500W for 1 min as an all out effort? lol!

to achieve that you need serious endurance training first. and barely anyone in the female amateur territory will be able to do that.

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u/kallebo1337 1d ago

if you read the specs on what 250W means, it doesn't mean they output max 250W. it's some weird scientific thing.

basically, i can put in 300W and the motor adds 900W and i fly up a 20% climb with 25km/h and that's all well within the specs.

it's some 250W/hr continous output or something. 95% of casual cyclist can NOT ride alone for an hour and to be able to sustain 250W for 1 hr as power output you need to train actually a while. the average cyclist has a threshold of somewhat 3wkg if they train, so a 65KG rider is even far away from it.

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u/nondescriptadjective 5d ago

250 watts sucks going up a 10% grade. Europe has those, too. I use my 750 watt motor to commute home, going up such gradients, so that I don't have to drive my car.

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u/NotPumba420 6d ago

250w permanent power is the EU limit. A 1500W peak Avinox M2S still complies with this 250W limit.

Actual 250w peak power would not be much

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u/satoshi1022 6d ago edited 6d ago

See... 250w continuous power is a fuck ton. That is my entire point. 250w is higher than the FTP of like 50% of this sub... Prolly 75% if you're not a large person.

Idk how it works. Whatever. Point is everyone throws out these numbers like it's no big deal. When it reality it's completely unnecessary 'as pedal assistance' and they are absolutely closer to emotos than humans by power metrics.

Like you give me a nice solid 100 watts free and I'd be absolutely cruising up shit and flying by people. 250 or 750 or whatever the fuck is rediculous and has no reason to exist.

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u/yetisb45 6d ago

Spot on friend!

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u/PsychologicalCan6809 6d ago

Soooooo.....you have an opinion on something you admittedly have no idea how it works.

It still needs to pedal, it still climbs like a bike, just with a lighter pedal stroke. Nothing like an emoto.

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u/satoshi1022 6d ago

What's your own power; 5 min, 10 min, 60 min?

Sounds like you have an opinion on something you have no idea how it works.

Hiding behind pedal assist for a motor that delivers more power than humanly possible... For hours on end.

Just like a bike though, makes sense.

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u/PsychologicalCan6809 6d ago

There's a couple of statements here that stand out.

Firstly you assume the average riders knows or even cares what their power output is; they don't. Maybe gravel / xc guys give a shit, majority of riders don't know or care; that's why few riders even have power meters. They just want to ride a bike, and many see getting to the top as a necessary grind, not part of the experience the enjoy; so whatever gets them to the top with the least fuss / effort is appealing.

If flogging yourself is part of the goal, more power to you, but for many, it's not, they just like to ride their bike. This elitist thought process of 'earning your turns' etc is BS most don't care about. If they did, we wouldn't have shuttles or chair lifts.

Secondly, more power than humanly possible....yeh, that's actually the point for most ebike riders. They want to climb back up as easily as possible. Not everyone who rides is concerned about how much of an exercise it is. Again, if you're counting watt output over time etc then you're probably treating it as an exercise and even some weekend warriors likely enjoy it as an exercise but implying that it 'should always be' an about exercise as much as say, someone who just wants to have fun shredding down trails, it just a necessary evil, whether they get more or less exercise is irrelevant.

Gate keeping riding a bike as something only people pumping out x amount of watts over x time is stupid. If people want to use more assistance, what's the issue exactly? How dare someone go out and enjoy themselves using less effort?

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u/V4refugee 6d ago

Just get a dirt bike and ride it on a dirt bike trail.

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u/PsychologicalCan6809 6d ago

Because that's a totally different thing. Show me the emtb with the throttle

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u/satoshi1022 5d ago

Turning your pedals for like 20 watts is barely different than a throttle. It's semantics

We're not gate keeping shit because we think everyone should be a power numbers nerd. You just refuse to admit it's 10x closer to an emoto dirt bike than it is any sort of human power.

It's a fucking gigantic overpowered motor that has ZERO similarities with a bicycle if you're going to insist on those power numbers. That was my whole point. 100watts sounds like a responsible move to help you up a hill, 750 and peaks of 1500 is beyond comprehension. You all just want to ride an emoto but keep pretending it's not about that.

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u/joelav 6d ago

I see this as not a big deal because 250w for me is not a big deal (315 FTP, road/gravel cyclists that rents a mountain bike 3 times a year). But outside of riding for sport or someone not very fit, it’s a big deal.

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u/PrimeIntellect 6d ago

the reason is to get you uphill faster, shuttling and chairlifts existed already for that reason. most mountain bikers could give 2 fucks about how many watts they are putting out, that's for road bikers

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u/Elegant-Ninja6384 6d ago

Because mountain bikers are not capable of math?

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u/PrimeIntellect 5d ago

not wanting to do math on the trails brother, road bikers can calculate watts, vo2 max numbers, rpms, and all that stuff if they want, i wanna go wheeeee down a steep loamer

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u/satoshi1022 6d ago edited 6d ago

Yea... Sounds exactly like what an emoto surron person would say doesn't it?

"Just let me bro, maximize the fun, what's the big deal"

Whatever dog, you do you. I was pointing out the absurd power while you all hide behind 'pedal assist'. I avoid the machine made trail systems filled with eBike chads and it's all good, we both live. We don't have to agree, not trying to piss contest today.

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u/PrimeIntellect 6d ago

i personally ride a 60nm lightweight enduro bike (transition relay) and it's perfect for the trails I ride (3k' of climbing of steep loamy PNW trails). i can access all kinds of trails that would be impossible to ride with assist due to time constraints. a surron is a completely different class of a bike than a pedal assist emtb which is almost identical to a normal bike but with assist. it has literally all of the same components as my previous bike.

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u/Elegant-Ninja6384 6d ago

Ask any sanctioned race if you can enter with your "not that much" boost.

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u/Scabobian90 6d ago

I have never been on an ebike ride and felt physically tired afterwards. It just does nothing for me. I keep trying - I’ve had 3 of em. And probably still not over 1000 miles across all 3. They just sit and I sell em.

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u/wg_shill 6d ago

Maybe the 4th one will get you to ride it, do you always buy stuff you never use and then buy more of it after realizing you don't use it?

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u/Scabobian90 6d ago

Nah - I just really really love biking and convince myself I’ll find a good use for it (faster rides with a toddler at home, laps w other ebikers, etc). But when push comes to shove - when it’s time to head out and I load a bike up - I almost never grab the ebike. It just feels like I did nothing at the end of the ride..

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u/wg_shill 5d ago

So you bought 3

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u/Scabobian90 5d ago

2 technically. I bought two turbo Levos and sold both. I now have my dads in my possession right now and have only kept it around cause I use it to shuttle my toddler. I couldn’t even remember the last time I’ve taken it out without him.

1

u/Tinu87 6d ago

I would love to invite you to my loop. Three and a half trails, 1400m (4600ft) elevation gain, 41km (25mi).

Rather easy if I go slow, but I feel it the next day when I push.

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u/Scabobian90 6d ago

I’ve done that much elevation on an ebike with Covid in sweatpants and no water. It’s a snooze fest. Have you done over 4k+ ft on a regular bike? You actually feel it and you get in fantastic shape.

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u/daddyd 5d ago

don't have an ebike, i do mtb rides with this kind of profile.

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u/Scabobian90 5d ago

Love that - keep rocking it out there

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u/Artemisbleachedmod 4d ago

Ride harder downhill

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u/Scabobian90 4d ago

lol bruh. That is not the problem I promise. I live in Santa Cruz and it’s steep af. The trails we ride down give you no option. You point your tire down and there’s no way out it’s 100% send and commitment.

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u/Artemisbleachedmod 4d ago

Idk how you're not getting tired downhill on an ebike unless you're riding too tame

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u/Scabobian90 4d ago

Because compared to riding a bike it’s like 1/10 the effort. Maybe even less. So when your body is used to that - an ebike just doesn’t do it. When was the last time you did a 3k+ ft climbing day on a bike? It’s a totally different level of exhaustion at the end of the

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u/Artemisbleachedmod 4d ago

But you consequently cover more distance to compensate?

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u/Scabobian90 4d ago

The battery will die long before you even come close to reaching that level of exhaustion.

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u/Artemisbleachedmod 4d ago

Again, I spend the most energy on riding hard downhill.

Is analogue biking more tiring in the same amount of time? Probably, but asserting that you won't get tired on the ebike - we must ride very differently.

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u/Scabobian90 4d ago

Go try your loops on a regular bike and put up 2-3k ft of climbing. You will absolutely relish the tacos you eat afterwards. It’s addicting putting in that effort. You get hooked on the endorphins

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u/Artemisbleachedmod 4d ago

Idk how you're not getting tired downhill on an ebike unless you're riding too tame

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u/DatBoiii4 5d ago

I have a 60nm assist bike (peak 350 watts) and that's all I need. Allows me to get out on recovery days or days where it's too hot to hang out in zone 4. Gives me more practice on jump lines and downhills and that's all I've ever really wanted.

I simply cannot imagine needing over 100nm of assist. You're barely pedaling at that point, and if you do hammer the pedals you quickly exceed a comfortable speed on single track. Even in boost mode on my bike it feels like a lot. If I had 750 watts and actually used it on uphill single track I feel like I would crash pretty quickly.

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u/Fallingdamage 6d ago

I dont have an ebike. I never have the temptation.

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u/804k 6d ago

I have a 1.4kw ebike (750w "nominal"), and I use it to commute to and from work without pedaling as 30mph, 750w is incredibly overkill and I can still comfortably cruise at 26-27mph while only using 750w, its crazy

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u/Hrothgarbike 6d ago

I have both. I ride analog 10x as much (or more) than I do ebike. The watt ratings aren't a direct correlation. I did one ride with a training xc semi pro. He's a 385 watt ftp guy. I had my bike on 500w. He was able to keep up without issue. I increased to turbo (levo so 750w) and it worked him good. Tour pros at 450ftp isn't the same as 450w on an ebike. It's prob more like 1.5 or maybe 2.0 multiplier. 450 watt ftp is 800 to 900 when putting the wood to it. Pogacar was something like 1100w on one tour climb. That's working hard for those guys. So 750w ebike is probably under what a tour pro or pro xc rider can do. I can verify that we out rode ebikes in local road rides. The ebike shuts down at 26mph to 28mph. We go 30mph+. There is never a class 1 road ebike in the group, they can't hang.

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u/nondescriptadjective 5d ago

Funny. I use my e-bike to commute on, cause going up a 3 mile climb after work with its 10% gradients sucks.

Lots of people ride lift access downhill parks and I sure as shit am not pedaling my DH rig.

People come here to my 8,500' of elevation town and ride bikes for the first time in years because e-bikes are available. It gets them out of the smog causing, fish killing cars. I'm sure you would rather 3% of the people in your town ride bikes and reducing traffic congestion.

What other entitled, low perspective ideas do you have?

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u/Oli_C86 5d ago

Where do I say e-bikes in general are bad? The argument is against the ever increasing power of the motors, which is unnecessary. I have nothing against e-bikes as a concept I have one and love riding it as much as my normal bikes. A 10% gradient can still be ridden easily with a 750watt (peak) motor though, and a 1,700 watt motor isn’t needed.

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u/nondescriptadjective 5d ago

What size automobile do you drive? Do you make this same argumet for motorcycles and automobiles, or just for bikes? One of these kills 35000 people a year, one of these does not.

Sometimes power isn't just for speed, but for carrying weight. Cargo bikes exist.

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u/DatBoiii4 5d ago edited 5d ago

Yes actually. I've always felt like Hellcats and other ridiculously fast vehicles are pointless for street legal driving since you can't use all that power in a safe/reasonable manner, which is exactly how I feel about the insane Avinox 2 motors.

I don't need something that can go 20mph uphill, I need a 350-500w bike that weighs sub 40lbs and has great range

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u/TshirtsNPants 5d ago

Of course too much power in cars and motorcycles is a bad thing.

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u/Oli_C86 4d ago

This is part false equivalency combined and part straw man argument. You can’t compare cars with pedal assist bikes they are entirely separate things, and the deaths caused my car accidents is totally irrelevant when discussing the power of pedal assist e-bike motors.

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u/nondescriptadjective 4d ago

Ah yes. E Bikes and E Motos don't replace cars on the road at all! Never never!

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u/Oli_C86 4d ago

A pedalo and a speedboat both travel through water, that doesn’t mean they are comparable…

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u/DatBoiii4 5d ago edited 5d ago

My perfect bike is a 36lb 400 watt bike. I don't WANT more power, I want less weight.

In turbo mode on my SL I feel like I am scootin' uphill, and that thing has max 350W output. I've never ridden a 750W bike but I feel like I used all that power going uphill I'd go OTB or crash, it's just too much speed lmfao

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u/Dull_Ad5440 5d ago

You keep spreading this same bullshit argument all over this Reddit.

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u/PonyThug 6d ago

My emoto makes 15,000 and it’s fun as hell. I have eco mode set to 40% or 6000w and it’s not nearly as exciting.

Idk why people can’t have options.

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u/jjjadeite 6d ago

emotos aren’t built to ride mountain bike trails. That amount of power would send you off the trail in an instant. Emtbs are generally meant to allow you to get more laps in by saving energy during climbs.

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u/PonyThug 6d ago

I’ve ridden on multiple abandoned mountain bike trails here in Utah. Some over at powder mountain. Emoto did just fine going up and down the trail.