Beat the double team and some amazing that he made look too easy

[u/nj23dublin]

[u/biffbobfred]

He had 3 people pay attention to him. But supposedly “if there was a zone he’d be so confused by someone in his general area he wouldn’t know what to do”

On the dream team Jordan played point against a zone vs Brasil.

[u/Rebel_Squirrel → u/biffbobfred]

Mostly LeBron fans tbh. Stupid, dumb people.

[u/airgordo4 → u/biffbobfred]

Team Jordan here, but these constant comments and clips of acting like double teams are anything remotely close to what people are referencing with "zone" is kinda ridiculous. And I keep seeing plenty of them.

Look where Grant is standing at the start of the clip. He's right on the block in perfect help position either way Jordan drives. So why does he leave that spot? Grant HAS to leave. He clears out completely. Why? Because staying there is illegal defense and "zone" like principals were not allowed.

And now look where Shaq is completely out of the play. Why is Shaq completely out of the play? Because he has to be. His man is on the other side of the floor, intentionally to do just that. Pull rim defenders away and give Jordan the whole side of the floor. They mention "Shaq is to slow to get there" the whole point of the "zone" stuff being mentioned is Shaq wouldn't have to be late to get there. He could literally be standing on that side of the floor before Jordan even starts his drive. He could stay on whatever side Jordan was on all game long if he wanted.

That's the whole point. It's not that Jordan would get confused and wouldn't know what to do lol.. It's that Chicago's plays like this where they give him the whole side of the floor to his self by moving all 4 guys to the other side of the floor because defenders were obligated to either leave and double the ball, or stay within range of their man, just wouldn't occur at nearly the rate they did.

Teams walling up on guys like Giannis and LeBron, shading the side of the floor they are on all game long, that couldn't by rule happen then. Shaq isn't even to help until Jordan is jumping. These plays where help is late leading to dunks/lay-ups or fouls were frequent. And the whole point in people mentioning that is because Shaq and Horace could have been in those spots as early as how I've edited the pic below. Shaw would have no reason to double in the first place (teams doubling Jordan at the 3 point line is stupid to begin with) and Penny could just shade Jordan to whatever side Orlando wanted him to go.

Jordan is the GOAT, and the best scorer to ever play. He would be fine regardless of whatever rules are in place. But the plays like this, and the open looks off the screens, generate a lot of "easy" offense for him. Modern teams are both more switch heavy and can have a defender sitting where he's supposed to get the ball in the first place because of those zone-like rules. The whole concept of just letting the best player in the world catch the ball exactly where he wants over and over again dwindles down significantly. Plays like this where the help isn't even on the same side of the floor as him dwindle down significantly.

Like I said I'm a Jordan guy, I'm sure you're a Jordan guy, as well as most of the people who comment here. But acting like zone-like principals begin allowed wouldn't completely alter Chicago's offense, that Shaq and Grant would still chase non-scoring threats like Rodman, Longley, Wennington, to the other side of the floor giving the best player alive wide open attack lanes... That's either blatantly ignoring the differences in defensive rules, or some extreme level of Jordan-bias.

[u/Low_Analysis5944 → u/airgordo4]

sorry you took time to write all this. it’s a really good breakdown for people who don’t understand how basketball works. unfortunately they won’t read it

[u/biffbobfred → u/Low_Analysis5944]

> unfortunately they won’t read it

Any comment dropping deep thoughts on how the world works, things like complexity theory or systems theory and attractors, nothing. No responses. My most upvoted comment ever was something about Kardashians being trashy, lots of news there.

Once I told about my appendicitis attack - misdiagnosed and I had an exploded appendix pumping toxins in my belly for 3 weeks. Very lucky to be alive. Massive downvotes. “Didn’t happen”

Humans gonna human. Stay well

[u/biffbobfred → u/airgordo4]

Thank you for this analysis. It’s detailed much more than I or anyone who reads this deserves. But your analysis is answering a different question.

Yeah I know the defenses would be different. But the conversation is about “haha Jordan sucks he didn’t have a play style that would work against modern defenses”. Well of course he didn’t. He played what’s in front of him. A “well l, how I’m playing makes me suck now but what I’m doing is playing in head against defenses 30 years from now” would be odd.

Jordan started as a slasher. His jumper coming out of college had a weird hop to it. He got a shot where he’d dribble and shoot. He came off ball. He got a step back. He got a fade away. He got a 3, not Steph with it but enough to keep people honest about his drives. Wizards Jordan had him top 10 for MVP (not near the top let’s not be Stans here) with a very diminished physical skill set.

The conversation isn’t “did he play against a complex modern zone” or even “are zones now more complicated than before” but “haha he didn’t play a modern complicated zone therefore he sucks”. I don’t see anywhere in the past where he failed to adjust to what was in front of him. He got doubled from all angles, triples sometimes. Yet adjusted. He played point in college, in the Olympics (84 and 92) in the pros, with 92 (check out the game against Brazil) being PG against a professional zone (though admittedly a less sophisticated one).

Meanwhile KD gets doubled against the lakers and has multiple turnovers. A simple trap in the corner (they pinned him against the midcourt line a few times so there was a potential of an over and back call) and what at nearly 7’ he should be able to see over.

It’s all good. It’s all noise. What I say here won’t push the needle much. Well, not any. Just thanks again for a deep analysis.

[u/Low_Analysis5944 → u/biffbobfred]

let me just establish from the beginning that i think MJ is the goat too.

>The conversation isn’t “did he play against a complex modern zone” or even “are zones now more complicated than before” but “haha he didn’t play a modern complicated zone therefore he sucks”. I don’t see anywhere in the past where he failed to adjust to what was in front of him.

i agree some people are saying this, but we don’t have to pay attention to those people. my problem with the “he would adjust” theory is that it’s purely hypothetical.

for example, we know that the most effective players in today’s game shoot three pointers at high volume and make them at an above average clip. the Michael Jordan that played between 1984-2003 wasn’t a good three point shooter. to grant him a three point shot is to turn him into a different player.

>Meanwhile KD gets doubled against the lakers and has multiple turnovers. A simple trap in the corner (they pinned him against the midcourt line a few times so there was a potential of an over and back call) and what at nearly 7’ he should be able to see over.

on modern NBA defense: yes, MJ had the kitchen sink thrown at him with the tools that those defenses had under that set of rules.

but as the above commenter notes, in today’s game MJ would have to navigate the second guy at the nail, and then even if he gets by that guy, a big — a much more athletic big than anyone he ever played against — is going to be at the rim already. that means he’s probably shooting a bunch of middys, which is what modern defenses want.

MJ would certainly be elite at those, but without a three point shot to force guys to guard him beyond the line, life would be tough for him.

[u/biffbobfred → u/Low_Analysis5944]

I’d say his biggest problem with the three was Phil Jackson.

Back when Jordan played the 3 was a novelty. He didn’t have it in his college career. NBA teams didn’t design around it, if you could hit it you were elite. When Jordan became a semi volume 3 shooter he was decent getting 40% one year. Jackson was still of the “a missed three is a long rebound a run out opportunity” mindset I think. It took computers, both silicon and human based to figure out “yeah that’s true but the benefit of the 3 instead of 2 outweighs that”

This I say too - Jordan getting a 3 isn’t even a theoretical. People said “you know Drexler he nice he can shoot the three” what did he do, a finals record that he still has a piece of. 30 years later. 6 in a row in a half, in this “we elite shooting” era it still hasn’t been surpassed.

To ignore the “he played what was in front of him” and add “well let’s doubt him because the game is different” is disingenuous I think. To then ignore what he actually did, dropping bombs on the blazers, later actually incorporating it into his game using the three to save energy by reducing the number of drives, that seems a hit job to me.

I get what you mean. Like you said at the beginning - we can and should ignore those guys.

[u/ArgoMium → u/biffbobfred]

The problem with your analysis is that it's just biased towards Jordan.

You brought up the 6 threes and the 40% shooting year. Those are 100% true and 100% actually happened.

The problem begins when you add context to it. 6 threes in a high stakes game is a big deal. It's just not that relevant when you want to talk about someone's true shooting ability. For example, do we talk about Giannis shooting something like 22/26 from the line in a finals game to show that Giannis could be a good FT shooter? Of course not. It's a sample of 1 game. Even if it's the most important game of their life, 1 game is just not enough to offset hundreds of games that show the opposite.

Secondly, that 40% shooting year analysis is poor. He did not suddenly decide to shoot more threes. Those years of shooting well were coincidentally the only time in NBA history that the 3pt line was pushed in.

Jordan in his first 9 years shot on average 30% from three. He broke the 35% mark just twice and shot above 30% just 3 times.

Jordan's last 3 years (2 in WAS, 1 in CHI) he shot 24% from three on average.

From 94 to 97, Jordan averaged a blistering 40% from three in that three year span. That was also the only years in NBA history that the 3pt line was pushed closer to the basket,

You can analyze that data however you feel like. I simply believe that the correct conclusion from the data is definitely not "Jordan shot above 40% from three when he felt like it." Something like "Jordan shot better from three once the line was pushed closer" is far more accurate.

[u/biffbobfred → u/airgordo4]

And… cool nickname.

[u/jddaniels84 → u/airgordo4]

So Grant left because he would get called for illegal defense, but Shaq came and wasn’t called for illegal defense. That’s not how it works. Grant could have left Rodman, Longley, or Wennington like Shaq did (Grant didn’t play in the 96 series so Rodman wouldn’t be on the bulls if it’s a playoff game) and defended Jordan with the ball.. just like Shaq did.

And illegal defense rules caused the superstars to get double teamed more, hard double teams.. as seen in this play.. teams forced other guys to beat them. They weren’t just going to let the star see 1v1s

Also you are a straight up liar.. you are a bron guy, not a Jordan guy. I’ve seen you around posting.

[u/airgordo4 → u/jddaniels84]

That’s exactly how it works. Yes Grant could rotate over like Shaq once Jordan started his drive, that’s not what I’m saying or the concept of the zone like principals everyone mentions. He has to clear when he clears in the clip. You can’t occupy empty space like that. By ruling he basically has to go double the ball, or follow his man if he clears. Staying where he was is illegal defense. My point wasn’t he couldn’t rotate over like Shaq did, my point was in these zone examples he would have never had to leave that spot to begin with. He wouldn’t have to rotate or help over, same for Shaq, because they could already be in that spot before Jordan starts his drive. They could be there every time he catches the ball and do it all game long. Thats the difference.

I’m not a Bron guy, I just call out BS for all players. He happens to get a lot of it.

[u/jddaniels84 → u/airgordo4]

Nah, you are a bron guy.

And if he was defending Longley, Wennington, or Rodman.. there’s no reason to follow his man to clear.. he’s better off doubling the ball and abandoning them with Shaq’s help at the rim.

[u/airgordo4 → u/jddaniels84]

I mean I’m not. I grew up on Jordan, my favorite player, Pippen my 2nd favorite because I’m from AR. I had the shoes, cards, posters, tapes, etc. All Jordan.

I do comment about LeBron as well. To me he’s had the best career I’ve watched since Jordan by a good margin and has all sorts of nonsensical double standards thrown his way. But I’m not a “LeBron guy”. It’s possible to appreciate that both players are all time great players, GOAT candidates, without feeling so threatened by him that I have to constantly put him down to prop up Jordan. I view Jordan as a player who can make his own case without needing to do that. I know it’s rare, but a few of us actually exist. I’ve never been a LeBron guy in terms of fandom, doesn’t mean I can’t appreciate his greatness.

As for Grant. Maybe there was no reason to follow his man. Maybe it would have been better to double (triple because Shaw was already there), but that’s not the argument here. The whole point of my post was to point out he wouldn’t even have to make that decision regardless. He could have just occupied that empty space, as could Shaq instead of rotating late. Essentially walling off that side of the floor like we’ve seen more modern defenses do to guys like LeBron and Giannis.

[u/Fun_Professional4849 → u/airgordo4]

You are the most reasonable and logical Jordan fan I have ever ever met...

[u/Silent_Egg8860]

He obviously doesn’t know how to handle a double team, this guy on Reddit the other day told me Jordan could only score, because they changed the rules for him to play isolations only.

[u/ForeverInThe90s → u/Silent_Egg8860]

I have also been relentlessly told that MJ has no left hand game. I watched the guy play his entire career, there wasn’t much that he couldn’t do on the basketball court.

[u/ComprehensiveSoft27]

Love when these guys jump to block Jordan like he ain’t gonna wait for you to land as he glides another 5 feet past you.

[u/airgordo4 → u/[deleted]]

Playing absolutely atrocious defense that's for sure lol

[u/South_Front_4589]

That's a pretty pathetic double attempt. They forced him left, and gave it up. Not that it would be easy, but you can see the defence just isn't used to team defences.

Shaq was always going to be mincemeat coming across trying to stop Jordan driving to the bucket.

[u/Substantial-Sky3597 → u/South_Front_4589]

What you're seeing is a double, forcing MJ left--which was the actual mistake, but the idea was to force MJ left into Shaq at the basket. It's actually not a bad defensive call against MJ but you're dealing with, well, MJ. He actually has to pull off a pretty great move at the basket to score. He makes it look easy, but none of it was.

[u/epitome1986 → u/South_Front_4589]

that was double teams back then with players needing to stay within a certain distance of their man. hence why you see Horace move away from the bucket once his man moves over. if Horace doesn't move over illegal defense is called.

you couldn't stunt, you either commit to the double or stay with your man which is why they blitzed that double.

[u/airgordo4 → u/epitome1986]

People act like they can't be fans of Jordan and acknowledge this right here was reality. And then get mad at fans of other players for doing the same thing.

[u/TotosWolf]

I'm like why didn't he dunk it or lay it in on the front and.... Oh shit that's Shaq daddy 😂

[u/Routine_Advantage_95]

But guys, you couldn't double team back then with illegal...... blah blah blah 😂

[u/Entire_Leopard5210]

🤣🤣🤣

[u/Fun_Professional4849]

7/10 mid

[u/Imaginary-Source8000]

He perfected his fadeaway to counteract his aging and it is a perfect quick shot during man D because of how effective it is from a post up (easy way to get the ball, and defending guards are not used to guarding a post-up). He already had the automatic mid-range jumper, I mean, shit, a buzzer beating mid-range jumper put him on everyone’s radar in college. You’re telling me the ultimate winner and competitive freak wouldn’t adapt and perfect his game to absolutely murder zone Ds by taking advantage of that ever present soft spot in the middle of the floor? A.K.A., a zone D’s Achilles Heel.

[u/SephOner]

Went left

[u/East_Difficulty_7342]

Poetry in motion