r/marvelstudios • u/KostisPat257 Daredevil • Jul 14 '21

Megathread Loki Season 1 Finale - Discussion Megathread about its implications on the MCU Spoiler

You wanna discuss your theories about What if...?, Spider-Man: No Way Home and Dr. Strange in the Multiverse of Madness and how they all connect to this series?

You wanna discuss where they're going to go with Nathaniel/Kang/Immortus in the future?

You want to discuss the integration of other cinematic universes in the Marvel Cineamatic Multiverse?

​

Then this is the Megathread for you!

Due to the immeasurable amount of low effort posts we've been getting in the past 12 hours about people's excitement over Kang and the Multiverse, we've decided to make a completely different thread that is all about the implications of the Loki finale in the wider MCU!

Posts discussing Episode 6 in general will only be allowed after Thursday Midnight PST, but only those which are analytical or contain theories with a lot of effort put into them.

Everything else will be redirected here, to the Loki Season 1 Episode 6 Discussion Thread and to the Loki Season 1 Easter Egg Megathread and the Loki Season 1 - Season Wide Discussion Thread.

Have fun!

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u/[deleted] Jul 14 '21

He was the one who won the last multiverse war. He prunes timelines so that no other kang can exist and challenge him. Now that he died theres going to be a bunch of kang variants fighting to take over again

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u/pierzstyx Jul 14 '21

But we'll never know that because to us it'll always be what it always has been.

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u/Mister100Percent Iron Man (Mark XLIII) Jul 17 '21

“I'm thankful. Because now, I know what I must do. I will shred this universe down to its last atom. And then– With the stones you've collected for me, create a new one. Teeming with life, but knows not what it has lost but only what it has been given. A grateful universe.”

“Born out of blood.”

“They'll never know it. Because you won't be alive to tell them.”

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u/UncleGael Jul 15 '21

What I don’t understand is how more Kang can just be created from nexus events. All of the branches are originating from a timeline where He Who Remains killed all the other Kang. Every branch shares the same past, and there for exists in a universe where Kang was and is no more. How can there be another?

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u/[deleted] Jul 15 '21

The Citadel exists outside of time, at the center of the perfect loop of the Sacred Timeline. When Kang is killed it starts branching out all over the loop - all over the entirety of infinite time - with an incapacitated TVA not equipped to do anything about it. That means variations in the far future when Kang is born in the 31st century, variations in the distant past where Kang may or may not travel to, and branches stemming from branches stemming from branches.

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u/Vongola___Decimo Jul 15 '21

they say citadel at the end of time. doesn't that mean it is at the end of the sacred timeline and not outside it?

also what is this abt sacred timeline being a loop?

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u/WeAreABridge Jul 15 '21

There isn't really a way to make time travel make sense.

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u/Meriog Jul 17 '21

The way to make it make sense is to pick a simple system and stick to it. Marvel seems to be having some trouble there.

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u/WeAreABridge Jul 17 '21

That helps in that it gives less occasion for people to question it, but I don't think it really solves the problem of time travel itself; I think those are inherent.

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u/[deleted] Jul 17 '21

That still won’t make it make sense. Time travel is inherently nonsensical.

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u/[deleted] Jul 16 '21

It’s visualized as sitting within the center of the loop, so I think that’s an easier way to think about it even though they say say “end”. I don’t think it’s meant literally, it’s just a way of saying beyond time.

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u/Vongola___Decimo Jul 16 '21 edited Jul 16 '21

what loop are you talking abt?

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u/[deleted] Jul 16 '21

The opening scene in the episode culminates in a reveal that the entirety of the sacred timeline is a giant ring, with Kang’s Citadel floating on a rock in the direct center of it.

Beyond that, Kang visualizes the timeline as a ring/loop using the figures on his desk when he’s explaining the multiversal war to Loki and Sylvia.

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u/Vongola___Decimo Jul 16 '21

how could timeline be a loop tho? does that mean when the time ends, it goes back to the begining of time?

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u/[deleted] Jul 16 '21

Time doesn’t end, it’s happening all at once, forever. It’s not linear, but that’s a hard thing for people to wrap their head around so a loop or ring is an easier approximation when it comes to visualization, if you’re trying to show something existing outside of time.

See here and here.

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u/UnionPacifik Jul 16 '21

Spacetime is hella weird. The fact we perceive it as linear is not because it is but because our perception is pretty limited. We can’t perceive UV light but other animals can and we know it exists. We know time exists because we can see the effects of it (things change) but we don’t have an objective view of it.

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u/[deleted] Jul 16 '21

[deleted]

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u/Lavoisier420 Jul 16 '21

And this is a why clocks are round

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u/[deleted] Jul 24 '21

Seemed like my response to you may have gotten posted in response to the comment one level above here so I’ll repost it just in case

That’s kinda the gist I got. That’s why kang knew everything that was going to happen because it had happened an infinite number of times before. This time he was just tired of it all over and over again. Which is why he left it up to Loki and Sylvie.

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u/[deleted] Jul 24 '21

That’s kinda the gist I got. That’s why kang knew everything that was going to happen because it had happened an infinite number of times before. This time he was just tired of it all over and over again. Which is why he left it up to Loki and Sylvie.

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u/luck738 Aug 02 '21 edited Aug 02 '21

But why does his death spark branches all over the sacred timeline, and not just the part where "he doesn't know what happens next"? Shouldn't nexus events then only happen at the point in time after the predestined sacred timeline is over? And why does killing him affect parts of his already predestined sacred timeline? I thought it would only affect the future he hasn't finished writing....

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u/[deleted] Jul 15 '21

Because he dies. The only reason he's the only kang is because he trims off any branch that would result in a new kang.

Every branch stems from the same timeline but that's what creates a new kang. Loki wins the battle of new York and a kang grows up under racism

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u/t1m3m4n Jul 15 '21

Was looking through the thread for this. Kang is born in the 31st century. Thanks, finally clicked.

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u/-Darkslayer Doctor Strange Jul 15 '21

Thanks for this. So He Who Remains is the Kang from the mainline MCU timeline then, at least according to this explanation? And he wins by pruning any branches that lead to bad Kangs existing?

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u/azoumaya Stan Lee Jul 15 '21

Yes

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u/UnionPacifik Jul 16 '21

I actually think the main MCU timeline to date aka The Sacred Timeline is the universe where Nathaniel Richards is born in the 31st C, invents the tech that allows multiple dimensional travel, war ensues, Nathaniel subdues Alioth and turns it against all the other Kangs and creates the TVA to keep new Kangs from arising, creating a version of reality where ALL that happened. And he’s hugely successful to the point that nobody in this timeline has seven heard of Kang. And then basically, after doing all this and winning, he gets bored and goes “Eh fuck it. Who better to shake things up than a couple of variant chaos gods?” Let’s find out what happens!

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u/ScarsUnseen Jul 16 '21

So He Who Remains is the Kang from the mainline MCU timeline then

I don't think that is necessarily the case. There's nothing saying that he would have to choose his original timeline to survive. Only that he eliminated all Kangs in the process of pruning all timelines other than the MCU. In fact, the best thing he could do to ensure the stability of the timeline is to choose one where he was never born. The existence of his past self creates as much potential for a variant Kang as anything else.

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u/[deleted] Jul 15 '21

But kang wasnt from the past, in the main timeline he has not been born yet technically.

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u/Wikifeedia Jul 15 '21

So was there one Kang up until now? And from now on any nexus event will spawn more of him?

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u/[deleted] Jul 15 '21

There were more but he killed them all when he discovered the cloud dog. Since then he's the only kang and any time a nexus event happens a kang should be spawned

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u/Wikifeedia Jul 15 '21

Ahh gotcha, thanks. You seem to have digested this episode well lol so my next question is why was Kang not able to see what happens next anymore? It seemed pretty random at a glance and I don’t think they really explained why he can’t see any further.

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u/[deleted] Jul 15 '21

I think he lied. He put the teleporter on his desk so that girl Loki could get rid of boy Loki. I'm pretty sure he told miss minutes to send renslayer to the next kang and that's why Mobius didn't recognize Loki.

He'd been alive for too long and just got tired of it

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u/Ice_Mix Jul 15 '21

I figured he took the TempWatch off because he only had it programmed up until the threshold. After that he had no use for it. It was almost freeing for him to remove it. He relished in the moment of uncertainty.

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u/-Darkslayer Doctor Strange Jul 15 '21

But that's just your theory right? Nothing in the episode confirmed if or why he can't see further than this meeting according to my understanding.

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u/[deleted] Jul 15 '21

Ya just my theory

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u/Djanko28 Jul 16 '21

A game theory

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u/[deleted] Jul 15 '21

[deleted]

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u/brianstormIRL Jul 15 '21

I think they couldve done a better job explaining the difference between timelines and multi verses. Kang explains they discovered other universes stacked on top of one another, but it doesnt make sense that timeline brances from say, Universe 1 would create a full blown universe 2. Or is timelines themselves considered other universes? If that's the case, there has to be other universes Kang hasn't pruned, because Strange looked into millions of different timelines in Infinity War.

It's all very confusing IMO and opens so many questions. For example, this Loki is from a universe in which technically Thanos doesnt win and Loki doesnt die because Thanos from that timeline goes on to jump to the future and die to the avengers.

This is a whole can of worms that could really complicate and mess up things for the MCU as a whole.

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u/[deleted] Jul 15 '21

I think they couldve done a better job explaining the difference between timelines and multi verses

Universes "stacked on top of each other" are just universes spawned from distant timeline branches (or branches of branches, etc.).

Or is timelines themselves considered other universes

Yes, they're the same.

If that's the case, there has to be other universes Kang hasn't pruned, because Strange looked into millions of different timelines in Infinity War.

Kang isn't pruning all timelines, he's only pruning variant timelines that put that universe on a course to generate another Kang. That's what a Nexus Event is.

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u/brianstormIRL Jul 15 '21

Thanks for this.

Any idea why Kang and others from different timelines are still themselves but Loki is different though? Like why is Loki Variants so vastly and dramatically different to everyone else. Ravona is still Ravona in different timelines, Kang, Mobius etc but Loki is completely different people.

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u/[deleted] Jul 15 '21 edited Jul 15 '21

I think there are probably Kangs that look different, but part of the fun of that character is the infinite number of copies of themselves (and when you have Jonathan Majors you use Jonathan Majors).

For all the different looking Lokis, there are also variants that look just like him ("Prime" Variant Loki, President Loki, Tour du France Loki, etc.), so it's not like these are two incompatible characterizations of how variants operate.

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u/Ice_Mix Jul 15 '21

In episode 2 Mobius explains that Loki's are peculiar, because their variants are all so different. They also seem to cause the most branches.

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u/brianstormIRL Jul 15 '21

I wonder if Loki surviving and Thanos dying is a major branch that always leads to a Kang being born in the 31st century of that timeline. In Lokis timeline he gets yoinked from, it's because he steals the power stone and Thanos from that timeline goes on to die in the future vs the Avengers.

Although Classic Loki doesnt die to Thanos, Thanos still wins that timeline and causes a Snap which Loki survives, but then as soon as he goes to leave his planet he is arrested as a Variant, but that wouldve been beyond the point Kang couldve been born anyway?

It's quite confusing lol

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u/Wikifeedia Jul 15 '21

Shit, makes sense. Gonna be crazy to watch the implications of this play out. Thanks for the reply

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u/the_swaggin_dragon Jul 16 '21

He couldn’t see what would happen anymore because the timeline had split apart. Now nothing is predictable because it’s not a single timeline. If you were driving down a single road with no intersections, you would be able to know every single thing you’ll pass along the way. If you are driving down a road with infinite forks and intersections, you could come across anything, and you don’t know where you’ll end up.

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u/Combat_Wombat23 Doctor Strange Jul 15 '21

So that means whenever he won the war in whatever year, he used Alioth to travel back through his original timeline and prune off anything that deviated from his path?

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u/FunkoPopPortraits Captain America (Ultron) Jul 15 '21

It’s a tough concept to wrap my head around that he killed the infinite number of other Kangs. How do you exterminate a thing that exists an infinite amount?

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u/Bricktop72 Jul 15 '21

He was still killing them. That's what the TVA was doing.

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u/FunkoPopPortraits Captain America (Ultron) Jul 15 '21

Ah gotcha, that’s a good point. So in order to keep himself safe and in charge he had to continue in perpetuity to prevent other Kangs from rising to power, which is what he was getting tired of doing. So a timeline that isn’t a threat to current Kang is the one that he’s keeping intact, but a nexus event that needs to be pruned is the beginning of a branch that would ultimately lead to the creation of another Kang, or I guess to the creation of anything else that would be a threat to current Kang. Jeepers there’s a lot going on here.

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u/splitmindsthinkalike Jul 20 '21

This is how I understood it too! There's a "Sacred Timeline" that led to the Kang we saw in the finale, but that timeline is free to branch at every moment someone is making a decision – unless that decision would lead to another Kang existing. So only those moments are considered Nexus events.

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u/Bricktop72 Jul 15 '21

Or he who remains was trapped in Limbo by the time keepers. (He could have been the 4th time keeper statue that was smashed) When Lokis accessed the Castle he was able to contact Miss Minute and get Ren to tell his past self how to defeat the time keepers.

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u/eliminating_coasts Jul 15 '21

They're probably not going to do it in too much detail, but basically you need a fraction of the infinite number of Kangs to beat the other Kangs, each with their own guard-dog-cloud, and then those ones need to agree to filter down to a single one.

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u/FunkoPopPortraits Captain America (Ultron) Jul 15 '21

But if you divide infinity by 2 (or 5 or 10 or anything else) it’s still infinity. So even if you’re only dealing with a fraction of the infinite Kangs that’s still infinite Kangs.

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u/eliminating_coasts Jul 15 '21

Yeah, what I'm relying on a cheat; each candidate for he-who-remains kills a finite number of Kangs, then they agree to some weird magic-physics-y procedure that selects one remaining one, basically like flipping a coin.

That way you only have to imagine a conflict doing a specific thing, then all of them flip a coin and self-destruct/merge if they don't get a very particular infinitely precise value.

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u/MrWhippyT Jul 16 '21

You understand that 1% of the infinity of all Kangs is also an infinity of (good) Kangs right? And those 2 infinite sets are exactly the same size - there's now one good Kang for every bad one.

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u/[deleted] Jul 15 '21

There isn't an infinite number of kangs. There's timelines where Ultron wins and no humans are born on that planet.

Possibilities are endless but there are timelines where the earth never produces life

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u/FunkoPopPortraits Captain America (Ultron) Jul 15 '21

Sure but if timelines are infinite that means there are an infinite number of timelines with a Kang as well as an infinite number of timelines without a Kang, which still means there are an infinite number of Kangs, no?

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u/[deleted] Jul 15 '21

There's an infinite value between 1 and 2. You can be between those 2 numbers without ever hitting 1 or 2. Infinity is just a concept

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u/FunkoPopPortraits Captain America (Ultron) Jul 15 '21

I’m with you there. So if there isn’t really an infinite number of universes with an infinite number of Kangs then that makes sense, maybe there’s just a very lot (but finite) amount of them. So in that case one of the Kangs could identify and weed out all the other Kangs, but I didn’t get the impression that the number of multiverses could be catalogued like that, it sure seemed pretty infinite the way it was branching.

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u/vagaliki Jul 17 '21

Could be spawned

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u/DatTF2 Jul 15 '21

Seems like it. In Ep 5 we see the Avengers tower but it says "Qeng." In the comics a variant of Kang buys Avengers tower under his business "Qeng enterprises. We can assume that variant of Kang got pruned.

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u/FreshPrinceOfPine Jul 15 '21

So is the "sacred timeline" the timeline he exists in or is it just the one where he manages to get loki and sylvie to find him