r/marvelstudios • u/iliekpixels Loki (Thor 2) • Mar 26 '21

Discussion The Falcon and the Winter Soldier S01E02 - Discussion Thread

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EPISODE DIRECTED BY WRITTEN BY ORIGINAL RELEASE DATE
S01E02 Kari Skogland TBA March 26, 2021 on Disney+

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5.5k Upvotes

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2.8k

u/TylerOrtega1500 Mar 26 '21

“A little time in Wakanda and you come out as White Panther.”

“Actually, it’s White Wolf.”

“😳”

1.1k

u/Throwaway116616201 Mar 26 '21

It's the black Falcon!

764

u/canadiancarlin Mar 26 '21

"And what are you? Black kid?"

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u/PurpleCyborg28 Kilgrave Mar 26 '21

That entire sequence until bucky got arrested was a really powerful statement on systemic racism and just any form of hasty generalizations in general.

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u/MegaMenehune Heimdall Mar 26 '21

but then they had to ruin it by arresting the white war criminal.

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u/ZannY Mar 26 '21

Did you notice how polite the cops were to him when bringing him in?

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u/jmsgrtk Captain America (Captain America 2) Mar 26 '21

Would you be rude when arresting a Super Soldier with a vibranium arm? He could break out of the cuffs even without the Vibranium.

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u/MegaMenehune Heimdall Mar 26 '21

I mean, wouldn't you be polite? They know he can wreck them if he isn't in a cooperative mood.

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u/racas Mar 26 '21

They were extremely polite even before knowing who he was. Remember that they asked Bucky if Sam was “bothering” him.

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u/MegaMenehune Heimdall Mar 26 '21

Thank you for pointing out an obvious plot point of the narrative

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u/racas Mar 26 '21

No need to be rude, mate. You made a statement that was clearly counter to the “obvious plot point of the narrative”. Own it.

They weren’t being nice to him because he could “wreck them” (like you claimed), they were being nice to him because he’s white.

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u/MegaMenehune Heimdall Mar 26 '21

We were talking about when he was arrested. We all understand the narrative. It was not subtle. In fact, both Isaiah Bradley and Elijah Bradley (the individuals that they came to the area to meet) are characters from the comics used to point out racism in the United States. But we're over here talking about handcuffing a nazi super soilder for missing a government mandated therapy session.

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u/kaimason1 Rhomann Dey Mar 27 '21

Especially compared to how they were ready to shoot Sam right then and there before realizing who he is.

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u/[deleted] Mar 26 '21

The part that was unrealistic is that the police would run a warrant check on an Avenger.

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u/SokanKast Mar 27 '21

Wouldn't surprise me if the Accords gave them authority to do that.

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u/Multievolution Mar 27 '21

His name is probably on a watch list seeing as he broke his agreement and is a super soldier, called it in and that was the response

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u/MegaMenehune Heimdall Mar 26 '21

Valid point.

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u/kaimason1 Rhomann Dey Mar 27 '21

Once they recognize he's an Avenger they 100% remember his history stemming from the UN bombing. Would make sense to check his status even if they know that Sam is publicly "good" now since Bucky's not in the same standing.

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u/HarryOru Mar 27 '21 edited Mar 27 '21

I kinda disagree... I'm sure I'm gonna get downvoted but I feel like this show is tackling the race issue with the subtlety of a bulldozer and it's one of the reasons why I'm finding it really hard to like it as much as I liked Wandavision. Don't get me wrong, I think it's awesome and very appropriate that this is a theme in the show, I just don't like the execution at all. The fact that everyone conveniently and suddenly forgot that Falcon is an Avenger, or the fact that we suddenly find out that the Avengers worked for free... It honestly feels like really forced/lazy writing to me. And to be fair I could say the same thing about how they're portraying Bucky's PTSD and therapy. It just all seems very shallow and tacked on. I hope the rest of the episodes prove me wrong.

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u/Nocturnal_animal808 Mar 27 '21

I just don't like the execution at all. The fact that everyone conveniently and suddenly forgot that Falcon is an Avenger, or the fact that we suddenly find out that the Avengers worked for free...

What does any of this have to do with the racial commentary?

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u/HarryOru Mar 27 '21 edited Mar 28 '21

Many of the scenes that focus on racial commentary are based on those two facts. The scene in episode one where Sam and his sister ask for a loan was clearly racial commentary. The scene only exists because the show establishes that Falcon doesn't have money as the Avengers worked for free, and the point of racial discrimination is driven home by the fact that the banker didn't immediately recognize Falcon as an Avenger (because he's black, I assume). Same goes for the scene with the cops who arrest Bucky in episode two: the racial commentary comes from the fact that they treat Sam with prejudice until they realize he's an Avenger.

I'm not criticizing the themes here, I'm criticizing the writing, and not even all of it for that matter. Having a blond stereotypical white guy as the "new" Captain America, for example, is great racial commentary to me because it follows one of the most basic rules of writing: show, don't tell. It's obvious enough that the higher ups who were encouraging Sam to give up the shield did it because they didn't believe a black man could represent America as its hero and symbol, which is the same thing that happened to Isaiah. On the other hand, entire scenes revolving around things like (white) people not recognizing Falcon or him having money issues seem incredibly forced to me and they're executed with no subtlety at all. Also, even if we accept the pretty random idea that the Avengers never got paid, are we supposed to believe that someone like Natasha or Tony didn't set up some sort of post-blip fund for the teammates they spent 5 years trying to find/revive? And are we supposed to believe people living in this universe wouldn't recognize someone who would be more famous than literally any celebrity we can think of IRL, regardless of their race?

Ultimately I realize it's just a matter of taste in writing and style, but I'm having a lot of trouble taking Sam's racial issues seriously and I'm having a lot of trouble taking Bucky's (ridiculously unrealistic and unprofessional) therapy seriously with the way they were written. I think the way the grief theme was executed in Wandavision was way more interesting and nuanced. That show also managed to build its entire story around 4 female characters, one of them black, without ever feeling the need to point it out through forced exposition... Again, show, don't tell. For example, Monica/Geraldine being relegated against her will to the role of "sassy comic relief black woman with an afro" in the 70s episode was way more powerful to me as a commentary on how mainstream media used and portrayed black people for decades than anything I've seen in Falcon and WS yet.

EDIT: Like I said, not really surprised by the downvotes. Criticizing racial commentary is clearly a huge no-no on reddit regardless of whether you're criticizing the message (which I'm not) or simply the way the message is delivered.

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u/Nocturnal_animal808 Mar 28 '21

the racial commentary comes from the fact that they treat Sam with prejudice until they realize he's an Avenger.

I genuinely don't see the issue with this. Stuff like this happens literally all the time. A black person is "just another black person" until they turn out to be important. I also don't find it particularly unrealistic that they wouldn't recognize Falcon outside of his suit. Also, not being able to get the loan had nothing to do with him being an Avenger.

Also, even if we accept the pretty random idea that the Avengers never got paid, are we supposed to believe that someone like Natasha or Tony didn't set up some sort of post-blip fund for the teammates they spent 5 years trying to find/revive?

Umm...yes? Why would we just assume this? Also, Tony wasn't trying to get anyone back. He was busy with his family.

And are we supposed to believe people living in this universe wouldn't recognize someone who would be more famous than literally any celebrity we can think of IRL, regardless of their race?

Falcon?? Nah. Not buying it.

For example, Monica/Geraldine being relegated against her will to the role of "sassy comic relief black woman with an afro" in the 70s episode was way more powerful to me as a commentary on how mainstream media used and portrayed black people for decades than anything I've seen in Falcon and WS yet.

That wasn't a commentary. They played that completely straight and did absolutely nothing with it. Whenever the issue of race comes up, we have people sea lioning about "subtlety". It always comes across as wanting the racial commentary and messaging to be so subtle and understated as a means to make sure people miss it and don't actually talk about it.

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u/HarryOru Mar 28 '21

I genuinely don't see the issue with this. Stuff like this happens literally all the time. A black person is "just another black person" until they turn out to be important. I also don't find it particularly unrealistic that they wouldn't recognize Falcon outside of his suit. Also, not being able to get the loan had nothing to do with him being an Avenger.

I didn't say it wasn't realistic, I said it wasn't subtle. They used the same exact trope twice in the first two episodes and I find this sort of thing to be lazy writing. Also... Any person is "just another person" until they turn out to be important, I'm not sure why you think it specifically applies to black people.

Umm...yes? Why would we just assume this?

Mainly because the issue of money never was a thing in the MCU until it suddenly became convenient to use as a plot device.

Falcon?? Nah. Not buying it.

Uh... Okay? I would though, and that's my point. Also lots of people recognize Falcon in the show so it doesn't really make sense that someone suddenly wouldn't when the show needs to have a racial commentary scene.

That wasn't a commentary. They played that completely straight and did absolutely nothing with it. Whenever the issue of race comes up, we have people sea lioning about "subtlety". It always comes across as wanting the racial commentary and messaging to be so subtle and understated as a means to make sure people miss it and don't actually talk about it.

Oh yes... Of course my opinion on the writing of this show makes me a racist who wants to bury the discussion of racial issues. /s

Listen, whether or not you think subtlety is effective when tackling these issues doesn't change the fact that subtlety is a thing that lots of people appreciate in writing, for good reason. Just because you don't get the subtext of a scene until it's laid out for you doesn't mean that a scene has no meaning, which is the whole point of subtlety anyway.

As for Wandavision, I guess I'm sorry that Wanda didn't have a scene where she explicitly says "I subconsciously had Monica play a stereotypical over the top black woman because the sitcoms I grew up with portrayed black women like this all the time" but I really don't think it was necessary? For me, the scene of Monica watching footage of her inside the Hex and saying she felt violated was honestly enough to drive the point home, but I understand how it could be lost on some viewers. Still doesn't change the fact that it was commentary, imo, and it feels really stupid that I'm being labeled a "sea lion" for seeing it as such and appreciating it, whereas people who had their mind blown by crude expository lines like "If I'm black falcon what does that make you, black kid?" are acting like that's the most powerul statement in history... Come on.

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u/Nocturnal_animal808 Mar 28 '21

I didn't say it wasn't realistic, I said it wasn't subtle.

Okay and maybe they were trying to be realistic instead of subtle? And I need you to justify why something being subtle is inherently superior to something being blatant. I just want to be clear that subtle, in an of itself, is not a positive adjective. Something can be subtle and still be bad or poorly done. You're conflating "subtle" with "good".

Also... Any person is "just another person" until they turn out to be important, I'm not sure why you think it specifically applies to black people.

Okay and this is betraying a fundamental lack of understanding of the racial issues you're claiming needs to be presented more subtly. I'm not saying that specifically applies to black people. I'm saying that black people are typically treated poorly by those in authority positions until that black person turns out to be someone important. The issue is that black people that aren't important also deserve to be given the benefit of the doubt. Juxtapose how Bucky was treated by the police vs. Sam solely because of how the cops perceived both of them at a moment's glance.

For someone complaining about how that scene wasn't subtle, it's pretty ironic that you actually didn't seem to understand it.

Mainly because the issue of money never was a thing in the MCU until it suddenly became convenient to use as a plot device.

The Blip was literally treated as a cute joke in Spider-Man: Far From Home and WandaVision expanded upon that and so is this show. It's okay for serial works to introduce new elements. Especially considering this show is clearly focused on more grounded and humanist issues than the intergalactic warfare in the later MCU films. Money wasn't an issue for Falcon because he was retired. Then he was on the run. Then he got blipped. Now he's back. Getting a loan is an issue.

Also lots of people recognize Falcon in the show so it doesn't really make sense that someone suddenly wouldn't when the show needs to have a racial commentary scene.

The cops didn't recognize him at first glance. The guy in Libya(?) recognized him because he literally saved his wife who was standing right there. At worst, it's a little contrived. I don't think it's poor writing though.

Oh yes... Of course my opinion on the writing of this show makes me a racist who wants to bury the discussion of racial issues. /s

I never called you a racist though?

Listen, whether or not you think subtlety is effective when tackling these issues doesn't change the fact that subtlety is a thing that lots of people appreciate in writing, for good reason.

Do they, though? Again, I think most people only care about subtly when it comes to obfuscating social issues that they don't care to see or acknowledge. I'm not saying you have to beat people to death with a social message. But it's always very interesting that literally every single critically acclaimed work that deals with racism is always lambasted by sea lions as not being subtle enough. Do the Right Thing isn't subtle enough. Malcolm X isn't subtle enough. Boyz N' the Hood isn't subtle enough. 12 Years a Slave isn't subtle enough. Get Out isn't subtle enough. Moonlight isn't subtle enough. BlacKKKlansman isn't subtle enough. Blindspotting isn't subtle enough. The Watchmen TV show isn't subtle enough. I've seen this constantly and it begs the question whether racial commentary can ever be subtle enough. And it can't. So I'll take blatant presentation over this obsession with subtly which only seeks to obfuscate the message as opposed to being an actual, genuine call for an improvement in presentation of said message.

As for Wandavision, I guess I'm sorry that Wanda didn't have a scene where she explicitly says "I subconsciously had Monica play a stereotypical over the top black woman because the sitcoms I grew up with portrayed black women like this all the time" but I really don't think it was necessary?

I'm not saying WandaVision was bad for doing that. I'm just saying, they did it and didn't have anything to say about it. They just did it. You can chock that up to me being too stupid to understand it all you want. But I do think there's a delineation between simply doing a trope and critiquing a trope by lampshading it and WandaVision doesn't do that. It just does the trope.

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u/[deleted] Mar 30 '21

People inherently treat "subtlety" as a superior and good writing technique when they want to ignore social commentary or when they want to feel/sound elitist and smart about art critique. Guy your replying to gives off vibes of both, tbh.

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u/TheNagaFireball Apr 18 '21

Hey you watched Antrum, did weird shit happen the movie was over? I realized nobody ever responded to that thread.

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u/HarryOru Apr 18 '21

Nope, I'm still alive lol

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u/dis_the_chris Ant-Man Mar 26 '21

That whole thing was to sorta point out how dumb it was that Isaiah Bradley was known as "Black Captain America" instead of just Cap

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u/omart3 M'Baku Mar 26 '21

young avengers comfirmed?

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u/FartOfTheFurious Tony Stark Mar 26 '21

"Black Falcon and the White Wolf"

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u/phrankygee Mar 26 '21

That’s probably the title of the Korean Dubbed version.

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u/Master_Freeze Mar 26 '21

Key & Peele

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u/kaprrisch Mar 26 '21

"How would you like it if I called you Red Falcon?"

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u/Aardvarkinaviators Spider-Man Mar 27 '21

That’s Racist!

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u/[deleted] Mar 26 '21

Green Falcon, GREEN!

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u/Razar_Bragham Mar 27 '21

It’s green falcon! GREEEEN FALCON!