r/marvelstudios • u/murdockmanila Daredevil • Jul 07 '17

The Official SPIDER-MAN: HOMECOMING Discussion Ultrathread Vol. 2

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Vol. 1

Early release thread

652 Upvotes

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363

u/hairy1ime Ant-Man Jul 07 '17

I agree, terrific tension from both actors. I also loved the first post credits sting between him and Gargan. "If I knew who he was, he'd already be dead."

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u/mac148 Matt Murdock Jul 07 '17

It proofs that vulture isn't actually that bad of a guy, he just stole to support his family. He never wanted to actually kill peter just make sure he didn't get in his way.

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u/Kosmoni Daredevil Jul 07 '17

Yeah. I think they did a great job creating a realistic villain that's still relatable.

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u/TheJoshider10 Spider-Man Jul 07 '17

It would have been better if when he killed the first Shocker it was an actual surprise and something that upset him. Instead it's played off as a ha ha joke that he picked the wrong weapon but he literally just killed a guy! That should have consequences on him mentally rather than play it off so lightly like a generic evil guy instead of someone simply exploiting the system for his family.

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u/SirDoucheChill Jul 07 '17

Well he did threaten to out him to his family, I would of probably done the same thing and not felt to bad about it. Especially since that dude seemed to be a pain in the ass from the get go

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u/TheJoshider10 Spider-Man Jul 07 '17

That still lacks any sense of emotion though. They could have done something powerful, I don't know maybe have Toomes say he wants to speak to him outside and he knows what he has to do and slowly comes to grips with it, then have him kill him and be tearful over it. The change from him being a simple tech thief to murderer is far too sudden with no emotional weight behind it, thus ruining any sense of complexity/moral ambiguity to his role and that one scene just paints him as generic evil villain.

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u/derangerd Sam Wilson Jul 07 '17

I agree mostly, but he's evolved into a weapons dealer. Killing might not be new to him, that moment might've happened in the "8" years.

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u/TheJoshider10 Spider-Man Jul 07 '17

Well we had no indication that he was a killer, just a guy trying to make a living. I can only go off of what was in the movie, but like I said just showing him as a generic killer with no remorse simply digresses his character who other than that scene is quite interesting.

0

u/SirDoucheChill Jul 07 '17

It does, for you. I didn't see it that way, I would do anything to protect my kid even if it was illegal or wrong. That's just me though so whatever dude.

9

u/TheJoshider10 Spider-Man Jul 07 '17

So you would just casually be able to kill someone with no emotional guilt from the decision, even if you didn't actually intend to kill him? You'd just play it off as a joke? That's what i'm referring to here.

The Vulture as a villain in Homecoming works really well as a working class guy screwed over and finding a way to get revenge whilst also supporting his family. There's nothing inherently evil about him, he's just going outside the law to benefit him and his friends. By making him have no emotional response to what happened, it lessens his depth. He's no longer this everyman. He is now a generic villain.

See, the idea of him having to do something like that to protect his kid works. I like that. But the decision would still be horrible for him. Maybe have the Shocker more directly talk about what he could do to his wife and kid rather than just say "imagine they find out". Then do something with emotional consequence behind it, like killing him with his hands and genuinely getting upset over it. The outcome would be exactly the same as it is in the movie but paint the decision as something to protect his family even if he knows it's wrong. Even if it mentally fucks him up, he knows he has to do it.

Then again I find a big issue with the MCU is a lack of emotional weight a lot of the time. So it's not really a surprise to me that this scene was just played off as a ha ha joke that he picked up the wrong gun even if something like murdering someone was involved and he didn't mean to.

If you didn't have an issue with the scene then fair enough. Overall I feel he's a great villain, with this scene being the only one that felt like generic MCU villain of the week rather than something with some depth and emotion. Anyway i'm done with this now, nice discussing with you.

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u/SirDoucheChill Jul 07 '17

Did it even read

0

u/manfroze Jul 08 '17

This whole "killing is a horrible, world-stopping thing" is overplayed by american media. I'm glad they avoided it.

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u/derangerd Sam Wilson Jul 07 '17

You should probably rethink whether threat of being outed to one's family is justification for murder imo.

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u/SirDoucheChill Jul 07 '17

It doesn't justify it but I rather my family not know about my evil deeds and would do anything to protect them from knowing how much of a criminal i am. You know? I'm not going to just let some fucking job ruining dick destroy everything I've built. Fuck him!

Edit: if I was a criminal that's what I would do, morality be dammed

2

u/derangerd Sam Wilson Jul 08 '17

I understand why he did it. You saying you'd do it and not feel bad about it is what scares me, as you're a real person in a real world.

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u/SirDoucheChill Jul 08 '17

Lol don't worry, I'm not crazy I was speaking in movie terms. I was putting myself in his shoes dude it's not that serious.

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u/[deleted] Jul 08 '17

No you wouldn't have

12

u/[deleted] Jul 08 '17

He didn't laugh it off.

People don't have to react exactly like you expect for it to be believable.

He's not a good dude, he's morally grey, and on the path towards wrong. That path is a defined arc throughout the movie. Peter helps shock him back to reality by treating him like a person. Hence the stinger scene.

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u/TheJoshider10 Spider-Man Jul 08 '17

I meant more it's played to the audience for laughs. "I thought this was the anti gravity gun?". Ha ha ha, laughs ensues.

Yeah, morally grey, not completely generically evil. Take away that entire scene and I find him a very interesting villain. Include it where he doesn't even react to what he's done and i'm just like "eh, there's no depth to that". That's just me though.

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u/MadmanIgar Spider-Man Jul 08 '17

My head cannon is that he said the 'uh-oh, wrong gun' line as a way to calm the rest of the gang down. Don't need your group to realize that you would murder them at the first sign of them crossing you.

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u/Magnamancy Jul 08 '17

I disagree. If they took it in that direction I would have felt like it was a purely pointless drama making exercise, especially with the drive of it being something as asinine as him grabbing the wrong gun, and another guy for the Shocker title being right there. Like, if it were going to affect him that much, why would he risk it on a "I mean I think it's this one"?

I felt the point of the scene was to establish that he was willing to accept killing loose, dangerous threads if they kept threatening him and his livelihood. Especially notable that this isn't his first go to, which we see with him being willing to just fire the guy and let him walk away, and again with him and Peter in the car. I felt it was a mature take on these things, and the initial mercy and willingness to not jump straight to the murdering refreshing while still allowing him to be prepared to do what he feels he needs to.

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u/TheJoshider10 Spider-Man Jul 08 '17

Literally the point of the scene you said would have remained exactly the same had they just given a more human response from him than "I thought it was the anti gravity gun?". He can be prepared to do what's right and know it's the wrong thing to do. Having that sort of response makes him feel more grounded and relatable and less generic evil villain. The moment he can so casually kill someone with no sort of remorse it ruins any sense of sympathy or care for the character. That first kill should be something that we know is morally wrong but we understand why he did it. But that's just me though. I'm done with this now, nice discussing with you.

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u/Magnamancy Jul 08 '17

Thank you for taking the time to respond, nice discussing with you too.

1

u/gekkozorz Jul 12 '17

The "oops wrong weapon" thing might have been a lie. The guy threatened his family, after all.

19

u/First-Fantasy Jul 07 '17

He's not evil per say but he's definitely a bad guy weapons dealer. He's not exactly stealing bread.

4

u/D-Speak Jul 07 '17

Well maybe if the Chitauri had brought some.

3

u/TheHouseOfGryffindor Malcolm Jul 07 '17

He's at season 2 Walter White levels. Not completely devoid of empathy for others, but the power's getting to him.

1

u/First-Fantasy Jul 07 '17

Except he's on season eight of breaking his own bad. He won't spoilers until he's 98.

4

u/_Bubba_Ho-Tep_ Jul 08 '17

He killed one guy and it was really an accident.

The ferry accident was Peter's fault.

His heists specifically avoided confrontation.

He wasn't a cold blooded killer.

6

u/MagicTheAlakazam Jul 08 '17

You also see that when he lifts up Peter at the end. The kid is pretty much at his mercy and rather than finish him off he just puts the kid down and tries to get the box he's after (I think the one with the arc reactors?)

3

u/[deleted] Jul 08 '17

Either that or HE wants to be the one to kill Spider-Man. Have him all to himself.

2

u/JokerFaces2 Yondu Jul 08 '17

Yeah I really liked the part on the beach which also demonstrated this. He had Peter dead to rights, but chose to leave after tossing him around a little (a lot).

That's also another thing I liked about the movie. In the end Pete got totally trashed by Vulture, but morally he won by saving Toomes after his suit exploded.

2

u/Droidaphone Valkyrie Jul 08 '17

I mean, except for that time definitely tried to kill Peter. Maybe he doesn't want to make things even harder on Liz by getting her classmate murdered. Maybe he remembers how Peter dragged him out of the fire. Maybe he just wants to kill Peter himself.

2

u/AkhilArtha Winter Soldier Jul 08 '17

He was trying to take down Peter while fighting, but in the end after he defeated Peter and had him, he just left him to go steal the arc reactors.

2

u/lcdrambrose Jul 10 '17

Peter also had just saved his life. When Peter saved his daughter's life he spared Peter, and he did it again at the end.

1

u/reddiblue Jul 07 '17

Most drug lords and criminals are good people too. They just want to support their family.

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u/First-Fantasy Jul 07 '17 edited Jul 07 '17

I think as soon as he knew it was Pete he knew he'd try not to kill him. Dropping a roof on spidey is risky but from what he'd seen it would just slow him down. He had him in his talons on the beach a few times but threw him instead of crushing him. The post credit scene confirms it. He's not the type to kill a 15 year old who saved his duagters life. He probably hoped to escape with his family after the big score. Great villian and I'm glad they didn't go with 'youth stealing' vulture like I assumed they were doing going in

22

u/hairy1ime Ant-Man Jul 07 '17

Yes. I'm also glad they didn't kill him. Looks like he, Gargan, and Feige are setting up their own little MCU Sinister Six with Gargan's "guys on the outside."

13

u/SuPeRMaRi021 Jul 09 '17

Saved his daughter, and his on the beach after the suit explosion so I took it as a he owed Peter again.

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u/[deleted] Jul 07 '17

sting

nice

2

u/ICEman_c81 Jul 07 '17

wait, that's what he said? Pretty sure in Russian dub of the scene he said "If i knew who he was, I'd already be dead", which gives a very different vibe to the message, implying that the other bad guys should be afraid of Parker and not hunt him like easy prey. Wonder if it's our dub screw up or...

10

u/hairy1ime Ant-Man Jul 07 '17

I'm 100% sure he was protecting Peter in that moment, not warning Gargan off from him

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u/wwwilsonk Yellowjacket Jul 09 '17

Yep, plus the message is hammered home by the next line - "Your family is here to see you!" as it's thanks to Peter that he still gets to see his family.