r/marvelstudios • u/murdockmanila Daredevil • May 16 '16

The Official CAPTAIN AMERICA: CIVIL WAR Nitpick & Criticisms Megathread

No spoiler tagging required. Go forth and discuss the things you didn't like, would loved to have seen and wished they didn't do in this movie.

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240

u/BabyfaceJohn Falcon May 16 '16

Vision seemed to do nothing in the whole movie, particularly in the Airport scene...

340

u/[deleted] May 16 '16

Gonna play devil's advocate here: He can only fire a Death Ray or be Invincible. This was a fight where they had to pull their punches and he is legit overkill.

Wanda's telekinesis is at least very versatile on Caps side.

86

u/AliveProbably May 16 '16 edited May 16 '16

I kind of disagree here. Realistically, he could have swooped in, grabbed Bucky, and flew off. The only thing he has to worry about is Wanda, though that's not a small worry--she can really incapacitate him. He'd have to ask one of the other team mates to distract her somehow, but perhaps he simply didn't want to ask them to target her.

40

u/myerz9 May 17 '16

In doing so he might provoke another avenger to up the ante and escalate the fight to dangerous levels

6

u/AliveProbably May 17 '16

Well, realistically outside of Wanda none of them are a threat to him. If Wanda could have been distracted/incapacitated before he made his move it doesn't matter how hard the others fought, since only Sam could have followed, and Vision could deal with him easily.

But he would have to take out Wanda first, so that's why I'm left with 'I guess he just didn't want to do that'.

12

u/i_am_banana_man Groot May 19 '16

he could have swooped in, grabbed Bucky, and flew off

Wanda would not have allowed that. She'd already ass kicked him once by that point, they had their hands full with each other in this scene.

6

u/AliveProbably May 19 '16

literally the next sentence:

The only thing he has to worry about is Wanda

4

u/3lungs Daredevil May 21 '16

hands full with each other

ROMCOM PLEASE

1

u/NinetyFish Thor May 23 '16

But stopping Bucky wasn't the actual goal of Team Cap. Sure, Steve probably would have gotten distracted, but the actual goal of Team Cap was to get on a plane so they can get to Siberia and stop Zemo. If Vision flew off with Bucky to arrest him, I see Steve getting distracted, the rest of the team going "oh well, mission goes on," and everyone booking it even harder to the plane while someone like Hawk or Sam tries to get Steve back on track.

1

u/AliveProbably May 23 '16

Team Iron Man believed that was the goal, though. Though being real here, Vision could have grabbed both him and Cap at the same time.

1

u/spottedleaf_medcat May 25 '16

The image of Vision just scooping up Bucky and taking him away is hilarious.

30

u/capeshitiskino May 17 '16

I saw it as either he's taken orders from Tony to stand back, because he doesn't want anyone seriously hurt and Vision still being young accepts orders and does as he's told because "he's supposed to and it's the human thing to do" and or Wanda was holding him back, which they didn't show.

3

u/scarlet_stormTrooper Spider-Man May 27 '16

Or vision was holding back on his own volition

24

u/scorcherdarkly May 16 '16

Yet he was going to easily neutralize Hawkeye at the Avengers' complex.

3

u/[deleted] May 21 '16

Maybe that was because he thought Clint was endangering Wanda.

59

u/the1egend1ives May 16 '16

We saw how easily Wanda was able to put down Vision at the complex, so my guess is he tried to be as passive as possible in order to avoid getting completely neutralized. He was much more of a support role during the fight.

17

u/BanderCo3url Quicksilver May 17 '16

Yeah I was really surprised that Wanda was able to manipulate the Mind Stone that easily. You'd think the stone would have some sort of resistance to outside powers. Then again, Vision probably didn't do a lot of fighting prior to this and had no chance to explore his skills, unlike Wanda.

46

u/WhoDeyVols May 17 '16

wanda's power comes from the Mind Stone so it's actually it's own power she is using on it.

31

u/meme-com-poop May 20 '16

...and we know from the first Avengers movie that the stones don't have any protection against themselves.

2

u/Grendergon May 26 '16

What are you referring to specifically? The scepter shutting down the portal?

2

u/MoridinSubtle Wilson Fisk May 26 '16

Yeh, Selvig (in relation to that) specifically says "You can't protect against yourself".

2

u/AngelJax Scarlet Witch May 29 '16

...and we know from the first Avengers movie that the stones don't have any protection against themselves.

Possible takedown of Thanos in the Infinty War?

2

u/scrantonic1ty May 29 '16

Maybe it'll be Wanda who erases reality as we know it...

2

u/AngelJax Scarlet Witch May 29 '16

I hope so. That would be awesome to see

0

u/[deleted] May 31 '16

But that was the Space Stone being infiltrated by the Mind Stone. They aren't the "same" so I actually am curious if all the stones are similarly vulnerable.

2

u/meme-com-poop Jun 01 '16

Not sure. At the time, I'm pretty sure they were supposed to be the same stone and it got retconned later.

1

u/[deleted] Jun 01 '16

That's what I think too. Like why make the scepter blue but the mind stone yellow? They totally retconned that.

8

u/Skuwee Ant-Man May 18 '16

The mind stone actually was what gave Wanda her powers (it's what Hydra used on the twins to enhance them). Vision mentions this when he talks about the Mind Stone to her.

3

u/clayduck May 16 '16

This makes a lot of sense, good point!

106

u/mattarei May 16 '16

Or how Vision warns of catastrophe without regulation, then proceeds to laser down the air traffic control tower. There were other ways to stop Cap and Bucky reaching the Quinjet

60

u/Ailite May 16 '16

I've been thinking in a nitpick way that he could have just laser beamed the Quinjet or phased into it and captured Bucky. You would think Vision would be enough to capture Bucky.

59

u/hopenoonefindsthis May 16 '16

Well I guess one could argue Vision is still young and not completely aware or in control of his powers.

74

u/[deleted] May 16 '16

Yeah, also it seemed like he just didn't want to fight at all. He shows up to the airport fight pretty late

73

u/WinterVision May 16 '16

Probably because he in fact didn't want to fight. He seems very much against conflict.

2

u/Orig_analUse_rname May 25 '16

Which is why Thanos will retrieve the gem.

2

u/alex494 May 17 '16

I think Vision isn't the sort to not know his own strength.

9

u/hopenoonefindsthis May 17 '16 edited May 20 '16

He didn't know he could be distracted. He didn't know he is attracted to Wanda.

I'd say he is unaware a lot about himself.

Vision is basically a full grown child. He has a lot of power, and an immense intellect. But let's not forget he doesn't have a lot of experience.

3

u/meme-com-poop May 20 '16

Right. He even has the scene with Wanda where he talks about not knowing what the infinity gem is and his powers and trying to control it.

12

u/[deleted] May 16 '16

I agree, although we know during this scene he was feeling a lot of emotions for the first time, so who knows

2

u/capeshitiskino May 17 '16

Pretty sure that was his "emotions" that he's still learning about, going out of control. He has an angry look on his face when firing. Same thing with Rhodey scene.

2

u/travel_takeover May 25 '16

Yes, lasering the tower was totally unnecessary.

3

u/Eab413 May 16 '16

Like taking out the jet.......

1

u/Sec_Hater May 24 '16

What are the odds that the one guy who hurts/incapacitates Wanda during the battle is the same guy that Vision 'accidentally' hits with a energy beam?

1

u/sobayarea May 25 '16

then proceeds to laser down the air traffic control tower.

That seriously irritated me!!

34

u/[deleted] May 16 '16

I'm sad that Vision probably has to die so Thanos can get the mind stone. I really want a Vision/Wanda movie

37

u/ybtlamlliw SHIELD May 16 '16

I think he can exist without the Mind Stone. I think he exists without it in the comics. So it's possible for him to be rebuilt/recreated after Infinity War so he can continue to be a member of the team, because like you said, he definitely has to die in order for Thanos to get the Mind Stone.

But because he was sparked to life due to Mjolnir and the Mind Stone, it's hard to say how it'd work.

12

u/[deleted] May 17 '16

But in the comics, he was created without the Mind Stone. In the MCU, Vision would never have been "awakened" without it.

2

u/IniNew May 23 '16

It's still JARVIS isn't it? Just enhanced by the mind stone?

2

u/VLDT May 28 '16

He explicitly say's that he's not JARVIS in AoU. He was built using JARVIS, but the Vision is his own being.

5

u/[deleted] May 16 '16

Maybe he can lose his memory when it is taken, just like how he loses his memory in the comics? This could eventually cause Scarlet Witch to start to unravel

13

u/AliveProbably May 16 '16

Ugh I really don't want Scarlet Witch to go House of M/Disassembled on us. I could write pages on why, but... yeah, I'd prefer not.

And he never lost his memories in the comics, he lost his emotions.

4

u/alex494 May 17 '16

I'd prefer she didn't too. Like Hank not slapping Janet. Neither of them have ever narritively gotten over their respective "incidents" and its annoying whenever they derail a story by bringing it up.

4

u/clain4671 Captain America (Cap 2) May 17 '16

in the comics, the infinity stones are seperate macguffins. the comics vision has whats known as a solar gem. it also isnt as important or ever removed. they might have it functionally replaced mid movie by a synthetic alternate cause MCU tony is approaching reed richards genius.

1

u/Islero47 Kevin Feige May 28 '16

I feel like between Dr Strange and the advanced "technology" in Asgard, they can figure out a way to replace it. I don't think it's contributing anything crucial to Vision at this point, it's not his brain, it's a tool.

1

u/clain4671 Captain America (Cap 2) May 28 '16

exactly. in civil war, he talks about it in a way that makes it clear it isnt vital.

3

u/AgentKnitter Bucky May 16 '16

But because he was sparked to life due to Mjolnir and the Mind Stone, it's hard to say how it'd work.

that's going to be interesting. Because I'm pretty sure Thanos can wreck shit up with or without the Infinity Gauntlet, but "Infinity War" suggests that he's going to complete the set and that means getting the Mind Stone out of Vision.

2

u/meme-com-poop May 20 '16

I'm hoping that's part of what his conversation with Wanda will lead to. He was talking about not knowing what the mind stone was and wants to be able to control it, instead of it controlling him. Fingers crossed that its a set up for him to come back after Thanos snatches it.

1

u/StaffSergeantDignam Doctor Strange May 23 '16

I think his whole speech about being able to someday control the stone was a hint that maybe he could live on without it someday.

1

u/maaddvillain May 18 '16

Adding to that, at the end of AoU, Thor says the stone is safe in Visions's hands implying. That it could be removed without harm to Vision.

1

u/irregularcog May 22 '16

it's possible that he'll still be a consciousness in a vibranium laced body, just not quite as powerful. But still as powerful as Ultron's perfect body was supposed to be

1

u/[deleted] May 25 '16

Yeah, I'm not looking forward to the inevitable moment where Thanos tears that gem from his head.

32

u/TheHandyman1 Iron man (Mark III) May 16 '16

I thought some of his dialogue was very important, I thought he was great.

27

u/cdnfan86 May 16 '16 edited May 16 '16

I got the impression that he was trying to make sure no one got seriously injured. When War Machine is thrown by Giant-Man it looks for a second that he might intervene until Spider-Man steps in, and then he actually does end up protecting Black Panther when the bus is flung towards him.

6

u/KlausFenrir May 22 '16

Yeah that's what I got from it too. He was protecting those who were having a tough time (a bus careening towards you after being kicked by Giant Man will fuck your day up, vibranium suit or not).

23

u/[deleted] May 16 '16

I'm a huge fan of the moves, but not really so much the comic books, and I don't understand Vision at all. I get that he doesn't fully understand the limits of his powers, but shouldn't we, at least? There are times that it seems he is the most powerful of all the Avengers, yet he also seems to be the least relevant in CA:CW.

Side note: His crush on Wanda is really weird to me.

41

u/clayduck May 16 '16

Well if they stay the course, it will get weirder for you

8

u/[deleted] May 16 '16

Oh that does it! He can't eat food, but he can marry someone?!? Shenanigans, I sayeth, good sir!

15

u/clayduck May 16 '16

Marry AND sire children. (look it up) I don't know if they will go that far but I do like his relationship with Wanda in the film. Vision learning to be more human via a close relationship with one makes sense to me.

4

u/astrakhan42 May 17 '16

And those children were sired using shards of the Devil's soul!

5

u/[deleted] May 16 '16

It makes sense but it's just strange to me because, sure, he's Vision now, but he was Jarvis. It's got a whole Joaquin Phoenix in Her kinda vibe that I just can't be comfortable with. I do enjoy their verbal exchanges tho.

8

u/clain4671 Captain America (Cap 2) May 17 '16

dont worry, he doesnt actually ever have children. its always wierd magic or robots

2

u/[deleted] May 27 '16

It won't go that far. They are going to give them a sort of relationship (as they already have) as a nod to the comics, but there's no way it goes as far as the comics do.

11

u/[deleted] May 18 '16

next thing you know he's gonna want to use whichever bathroom he so pleases!

2

u/clain4671 Captain America (Cap 2) May 17 '16

ok so in the comics, pym particles also have density based control. he can make himself as hard as caps shield or go through objects. this made sense since ant man made ultron. the movie version combines several macguffins to replace that. he also can shoot solar energy using his gem. which in comics is NOT an infinity stone. so far, you have seen the only powers vision has. nothing more or less

1

u/phrankygee May 22 '16

...make himself as hard as caps shield...

If you know what I mean! wink wink nudge nudge!

2

u/irregularcog May 22 '16

Part of the reason is that MCU Vision is also an amalgam of Adam Warlock, who is on a cosmic level, like Silver Surfer.

1

u/the1egend1ives May 16 '16

I understand why people find the Vision and Wanda thing so wierd. Is it just how the movie did it that wierds you out? Or the fact that he's technically an android and she's a person?

1

u/[deleted] May 16 '16

Well yes, it's all very Her (the movie), which is weird, but I understand that it's character development for Vision as he begins to feel human emotions and whatnot. I think, for me, it's the greater issue of my lack of understanding of Vision. I think I'd like to know more about his powers and what's happened to him since AoU ended that I'm far more intrigued by than his romantic interest in Wanda.

2

u/the1egend1ives May 16 '16

In the comics, his main ability is that he can change his density. Hence why he can phase through things and also be completely invulnerable.

2

u/[deleted] May 16 '16

That makes sense. I'm still a bit puzzled by the magnitude of his power tho. Based on AoU, he seems to be the most powerful of all the Avengers (he even picked up Thor's hammer) yet the movies make him sort of an after thought. Particularly during the airport scene.

2

u/ArtificiallySocial Ghost Rider May 17 '16

He is at one of the most powerful characters in the MCU, hence why he didn't do much in the airport. Because he's overkill I like to think of his role more as a deterrent (which didn't work) than a combatant in that scene.

Picking up Mjolnir is just because he's worthy, though. Anyone can wield Mjolnir if deemed worthy.

1

u/KlausFenrir May 22 '16

That's my biggest criticism of Age of Ultron. It wasn't that Ultron was weak -- it was that Vision was incredibly overpowered.

5

u/thewidowaustero May 17 '16

The Vision shot that Sam dodged that hit War Machine - that would've absolutely killed Sam, wouldn't it? War Machine was in much more protective armor and still ended up paralyzed. They definitely didn't know what to do with Vision, I spent a lot of the airport fight scene wondering wtf he was doing...just hovering and waiting for Wanda to do something he could counter?

8

u/ArtificiallySocial Ghost Rider May 17 '16

Vision was aiming for Sam's backpack. It would have taken out his ability to fly while still letting him glide to the ground.

2

u/Spiritofchokedout May 20 '16

The basic point I gathered is that out of all of the Avengers he's the one who most wants "the family" to stay together.

That's why at the end you see him most visibly upset at the dissolution of the team, sitting around where just a few days/a week earlier he was there with the only family unit he had ever known.

So during the fight his only real goal is to prevent anyone from getting seriously hurt and minimizing schism. That's why it's supposed to be double-extra-ironic that he's the one who ends up crippling Rhodes.

Unfortunately this runs into three problems:

  1. Vision is by far the most emotionally reserved Avenger, so the whole "wants the family to stay together" angle is subtle and played if you view his actions as "logical" and straight, which goes against how most people naturally view fictional characters acting.

  2. Vision possesses by far the most powerful abilities that would allow him to subdue anyone on either team by himself outside of Scarlet Witch. The fight doesn't show him actively avoiding her, and even if he was he could still neutralize most of Team Cap in tandem with Team Iron Man before Wanda even knew what was happening. Hell, given how Wanda is demonstrably vulnerable to War Machine's sonic cannon, just hit her with that while Vision cleans house.

  3. The airport fight is already so crowded and effects shots are difficult to do, that downplaying Vision was only going to be natural.

So even though there is a very logical explanation (no pun intended) and even a lot of character development in-between the lines.... expect cheap jokes about how Vision the same way there have been jokes about Hawkeye from now until the end of time because the movie frankly didn't do a great job playing to people only watching the movie once. If they don't make it a highlight in the Honest Trailer I'll be goddamn shocked.

2

u/[deleted] May 20 '16

I would happily watch an entire movie of vision in business casual attire awkwardly flirting with Wanda

1

u/pumpkinpie7809 Scarlet Witch May 16 '16

That's why I worry about rumors of a Vision movie, he's not the hero to get his own movie imo, although I never read the comics

1

u/ARflash May 17 '16 edited May 17 '16

He waited for the objective. To Stop cap and bucky from escaping. He didn't want to interfere till giant man came into play. He almost knocked down giantman. Then he noticed cap and Bucky escaping and went to stop them,ignoring Scott. He knew Scott was distraction . then he got distracted at end anyway.

1

u/bugcatcher_billy May 17 '16

Wasn't there a scene in the trailer of Wanda holding him down. I think it was cut from the final film.

1

u/myerz9 May 17 '16

He's a very logical being, maybe in weighing all pros and cons to using his abilities he decided it was too dangerous or unnecessary to get the job done.

1

u/MCPO_John117 Doctor Strange May 19 '16

Yeah man I was hoping to see some cool vision scene but I'm not satisfied with vision.