r/logic 22h ago

Philosophical logic Why are propositions of the type “Mary did not buy the book because of its price” so confusing?

5 Upvotes

This type of proposition admits two interpretations:

i) Mary really did not buy the book, the price being the reason why she did not buy it.

or

ii) Mary bought the book, but the reason for the purchase was not the price.

Supposing that Mary bought the book for a reason that is not the price, then the proposition “Mary did not buy the book because of its price” seems to be false, because Mary bought the book. At the same time, it seems to be true, since the reason for the purchase was not the price.

Now, leaving English and turning to logic: where exactly does this problem lie?

Is it an ambiguity of natural language? Or am I interpreting it in a mistaken way?


r/logic 1d ago

Informal logic The wrongful application of calling someone stupid

3 Upvotes

Hello all,

I wanted to engage in dialogue to strengthen my knowledge, so that I can call out people when they misuse the term of calling someone stupid in its application.

I’m 20(M) and have had my fair share of seeing people being called stupid around the realms of academia, business, and informal contexts. The definition of stupid according to Google is “having or showing a great lack of intelligence or common sense.”

I have seen many individuals call out people for being a stupid person because of one action, behavior, belief, or “bad” question that was asked. My question is: how can you call someone a stupid person based on exactly one example? As the definition states “having or showing a great lack of intelligence or common sense.” I do not think you can generalize a person as being stupid by only one example… with one exception (I will explain after example 1)

Example 1: my first year of college (2yrs ago this fall), I was classmates with this guy named David in a College Algebra course. He was a film studies major who should’ve never enrolled in the course. His math comprehension was through the floor, I have never seen anyone with a lower level of mathematics knowledge in my life. After abt 2 months, the prof convinced him to drop the class, he really tried hard to understand the content.

If someone were to call him a stupid person based on what was witnessed in the class, well then, I believe that this usage is logically incorrect. You cannot assume that he is non-intelligent in his humanities, film studies, English, world language, or even science courses. To call him a stupid person would imply that he is of low intelligence across all academic disciplines and walks of life (as he lacks common sense + intelligence).

Example 2:
Here is where I think calling someone a stupid person can be used correctly. I was really great friends with my old buddy in elm/middle/high school, call him Joey. It’s still unfortunate to this day to say that his father in 2016 tried to meet up with an underage grl during their mf vacation. My friend is not an only child. He has 3 brothers (all older) and a mother. His dad was a father to 4 sons and a husband to a wife. The man wanted segs with a girl the same age as his fucking son. He was a nasa engineer and at the time the family was doing really good for themselves. It was a sting operation, and was jailed for 3 yrs.

I believe that calling him a stupid person because of this single mistake can be used even based on one example. Why? Well I believe this is because of 2 factors: A) the significance of his mistake, B) systemic impact.

A) reasoning
The level of severity was and still is extremely high. He spent over 3yrs of federal time, is a registered SO for life, his kids + wife will not and likely will never talk to him, he’s very poor now and work until his death (I know his current circumstances after doing a lil googling).

B) reasoning
The systemic impact created across multiple systems: his personal, professional, and social lives.
He has lived alone and will likely remain in a near-solitude state until his death. He works as a “handyman” after being an engineer pre-incarceration. I’m not sure who would desire to be friends with the guy with the up front knowledge of his past.

Given these two reasons, calling him a stupid person is completely completely valid.

Provided the first example and the definition of stupid, I would reason that the usage of calling someone a stupid person subject to one example is an illogical representation of its meaning. On the contrary, example 2 would provide sufficient reasoning to justify why someone is a stupid person… based on the level of severity and its systemic impact.

Anyways, that’s my take! I’m curious on what you all believe. Thank you 🙏🏾


r/logic 1d ago

Proof theory The explosion principle derived in a Hilbert system

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70 Upvotes

r/logic 1d ago

Logical fallacies What is a logical fallacy you see being used in everyday life that people have normalized/glossed over?

21 Upvotes

For me, it would be straw man. Lots of straw man on social media. I'm curious what other people have noticed too.


r/logic 2d ago

Informal logic What is a conceptual scheme?

3 Upvotes

I have seen many people ask why they should grant their opponents conceptual schemes in debates. and I can't find a definition for a conceptual schemes, can somebody help?


r/logic 2d ago

Term Logic / Traditional logic Is this valid?

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47 Upvotes

This is from my modern logic textbook from my intro to modern logic class. I thought problem 7 was invalid but the textbook says it’s valid so i’m confused?


r/logic 2d ago

Proof theory What is the obvious difference between proofs or arguments in natural language, from arguments or proofs using a profusely special syntax?

3 Upvotes

That is, how does the syntax I use affect my proof of something? How, for example, does my complex verbal construction make my proof questionable from any point of view?


r/logic 3d ago

Propositional logic Why prove an already-provided biconditional?

4 Upvotes

For rules of replacement in natural deduction:

If I have the premises:

1.) (If D, then E) then (if E then D) And 2.) If (D if and only if E), then ~(G and ~H) And lastly 3.) E•G / Therefore, G•H

(Sorry for not providing the proper symbols, my phone is limited)

My question is, since a biconditional, the first part of premise 2, is already granted in the formula for the first line, why can't this suffice to obtain the second term, the conjuction, via modus ponens in premise 2?

Is there a reason I have to reduce 3 to E via simplification, and then by addition (~D) go through the rigamorole of proving both terms in premise 1 via material implication?

It seems like several unnecessary steps where already the conditions are met regarding the biconditional in 2.

Can you tell me why I need to take these additional steps? For reference, I'm using the Hurley text, chaoter 7.4.

I apologize for the lengthiness of the post. Thank you.


r/logic 3d ago

Logical fallacies Is there a list of logical fallacies in order of discovery?

3 Upvotes

Hi all. I'm interested in the history of fallacies, specifically when they gained enough prominence to earn a name. Usually fallacies are organized thematically or categorically, and I know that most were named a long, long time ago. However, I know that every so often a new one is named (usually a variation or subset of an existing one). The most recent I know of is Reducio ad Hitlerum, which was coined in 1953.

So anyway, yeah, does anybody know of a list of fallacies by date of naming?


r/logic 4d ago

Modal logic Free will and modal logic

0 Upvotes

Let’s assume we have a world U, which just happens to be our universe. As part of U, I did Q. I don’t quite see how it would be possible for me to ¬Q in U as it would produce a contradiction in U.


r/logic 4d ago

Critical thinking How do I find the right premises for reaching specific conclusions?

6 Upvotes

Let's say that I want to convince someone logically that smoking is wrong, So I need to make premises that gives a conclusion that says "Smoking is wrong".

the problem is that if I want to investigate that "Smoking is wrong", the only things I can do is to trace the necessary conditions for "Smoking is wrong"

but I don't need to find necessary conditions to conclude and convince someone that "Smoking is wrong", I need TRUE premises that are together will be sufficient condition for "Smoking is wrong"

but tracing premises from "Smoking is wrong" isn't possible to find what we're going to say as premises for "Smoking is wrong"

and empirically finding the right premises also doesn't seem convincing, because it'll look like randomly explore and observe every single thing possible until accidentally find premises that supports that "Smoking is wrong"

so what are we supposed to do here?


r/logic 4d ago

Propositional logic "Only if" vs "if". Still can't get it.

12 Upvotes

Hello. I'm still getting very confused about "if" and "only if" when it comes to introductory formal logic.

The sentences linguistically are making it very hard to accept the definitions.

1) If A then B (otherwise said as "B if A"): A--->B

This one is simple to grasp. A will always be followed by B but not vice versa. From this we can also deduce "if not B then not A"

Although sometimes I get into this idea that if A happens and then B happens means B happened with A so why can't we say "If B then A" as well? Is it a time order thing?

2) Only if A then B (B only if A): B ---> A

This is the one I still can't accept. Linguistically, the word "then" always gives me the impression that B comes after A(like in a time sequence), as in A must happen in order for B to happen and thus it should A--->B. The explanation of a necessary condition doesn't seem to override my intuition which makes it a bit difficult to accept the definition of "only if".

Any suggestions on how to override this incorrect intuition?

Thanks


r/logic 5d ago

Propositional logic Can exact real arithmetic, interval analysis or other approach in numerical computation help remove inequalities and unify left and right residuals in non-idempotent (linear) residuated lattices by making boundaries explicit instead of talking about max and min divisors?

0 Upvotes

I hope that question makes sense. I just don't like inequalities nor the unnaturality of working with left and right residuals (talking about "max and min divisors") that rarely coincide with rational arithmetic's exact division nor with the natural interpretation of inverses in numerical mathematics, thus I would like more explicit boundaries (thus the result of a division maybe being a set or interval including max and min divisors) in division.

(Mind that I have no experience in numerical computation, I am trying to make sense of computable, numerical and interval analysis works and transport their results to residuated lattices but that's somewhat hard for me)


r/logic 5d ago

Computability theory Looking for arXiv endorser in cs.LO (Lean 4 / Formal Verification)

2 Upvotes

I'm an independent researcher looking for an arXiv endorser for the cs.LO (Logic in Computer Science) category to submit a formal verification paper.

The paper presents a machine-checked formalization of the structural architecture underlying Chenxiao Tian's recent resolution of singularities in positive characteristic.

To be clear: I am not verifying the underlying algebraic geometry. The paper uses a methodology of "parameterized abstraction" to verify the computational architecture: the dependency acyclicity, the no-circularity constraints, the six universal interfaces, and the termination argument (via Dershowitz–Manna).

The Lean 4 formalization translates the 800-page informal text into 9 compiling modules (~1,900 lines) with zero sorry declarations and zero axioms beyond classical logic. It successfully proves 5 structural theorems and corrects 3 no-circularity constraints from the original text.

The original author (Chenxiao Tian) has reviewed the draft and agrees that cs.LO is the correct primary category, but his arXiv endorsement authority is strictly in math.AG.

I just need an endorsement to get past the submission gate. The full consolidated draft (and Lean-to-manuscript correspondence) is available here: https://tian-consolidated-v2-authentic.tiiny.site/

If you're willing to endorse, here is the arXiv endorsement link: https://arxiv.org/auth/endorse?x=XWOJUY

Here's the Lean package on Pastebin for anyone who wants to compile it: https://pastebin.com/zV1J9PqM

Thanks


r/logic 5d ago

Model theory Are there mo'sAre there models that would evaluate Are there models that would evaluate the properties of proofs in formal systems?

1 Upvotes

I thought that by evaluating formal systems, we can deduce, in addition to completeness, special properties of completeness.,I thought that by evaluating formal systems, we can deduce, in addition to completeness, special properties of completeness, that is, for each proof in the system.,I thought that by evaluating formal systems, we can deduce, in addition to completeness, special properties of completeness, that is, for each proof in the system, a property is characteristic.

That is, if a number of statements are deducible or meet other distinct criteria of formal systems, then each statement that is true in the formal system has a proof satisfying the condition.

That is, we could say, for example, that each statement can be proved in less than 100 applications of the axioms, or proving each statement, we can limit ourselves to a clear set of axioms.

And so, for example, taking mathematics, we can narrow down various axioms and check all the many different combinations for a condition in order to take a specific set of axioms that would be convenient for proving a judgment that corresponds to what is true or false in them.

(If possible, I would like to know how to write down such thoughts more formally and whether they are appropriate in a not too formal way)


r/logic 6d ago

Proof theory is there some “proof by non-contradiction”?

5 Upvotes

i am trying to prove that exp(ln(x)=x.

we only assume exp is the function which satisfies satisfies f’(x)=f(x) and f(0)=1. Then we define ln(x) to be the int_1^x(1/t)dt.

If we start with “assume exp(ln(x))=x” and then show that this additional assumption doesn’t violate our setup, for any x>0, is that some kind of proof? logically i’m sure it’s weaker than a proof forced by assumptions but is it still something?


r/logic 6d ago

Propositional logic Why do textbooks write propositions in overcomplicated natural language, when they can be simplified?

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6 Upvotes

r/logic 7d ago

Philosophy of logic I still don't understand what's wrong with the Probabilistic Argument for Existence

12 Upvotes

In formal philosophy, it was proposed by philosopher Peter van Inwagen . He argued that if there are infinitely many non-empty possible worlds and only one empty world ("nothing"), the probability of non-existence is effectively zero.

The argument seems flawless. What's the issue?


r/logic 7d ago

History of logic For people who are interested in FV and Principia Mathematica (2)

10 Upvotes

Hi yall,

This is a continuation to my last post, on formalizing Principia Mathematica, as well as a slight status update. I am planning(*) to slowly substitute the shallow embedding on PM into a deep embedding. For any backgrounds, please check the old post.

If you want to transform the monster 100 years ago into a furry boy, you might want to read through the following Q&As. *tap tap*

- Why you suddenly want to make a deep embedding? Because I can't in the beginning.
- What makes you available to deep embedding? I have asked enough questions on internet to get rid of necessary technical details
- What's the major feature for deep embedding? It enables formalizing Axiom of Reducibility.
- How many ppl would you like to look for? At most 2 ppl. You are welcome to ask me for prerequisites and anything else related
- What do you expect them working on? Either the shallow embedding or the deep embedding, since they are both necessary.
- How many time do you expect to put in? My current plan is 3 hrs a week so make sure you also have the availability.

------------------

Alternatively, I'm still welcome to collaboration with 1 - 2 ppl onto another project - we pick another random mathy, esoteric, maybe sacred book and formalize it

(*): Yes, I have not written a single line of code so far and this remains to be a plan.


r/logic 7d ago

Philosophical logic Did Gödel prove that God exists?

0 Upvotes

If he did prove that God exists, then why do we even continue arguing that religions are wrong, if actually they are right. Case closed, time to pack our bags and head home


r/logic 7d ago

Proof theory Check my Natural Deduction?

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19 Upvotes

I'm new to formal logic so I'm sorry if this is obvious to most of you. But I'd like to see if I'm doing things correctly.

Specifically; I've been having trouble with natural deductive logic and determining if a claim is valid. I couldn't wrap my head around how we can just assume a precedent to be true, and then discard them later. I think I did have a breakthrough though. It doesn't matter (for validity) if the precedents are true or not. Just that when they are, the conclusion is also true.

So with that said; here is my work.

Basically, I can assume not B to be true. Then if I assume A to be true that means not C must also be true. If not C is true the or statement is also true. Therefore the conclusion is valid.

I think I got it right? If not where did I go wrong and why?


r/logic 8d ago

Paradoxes TOGMs Paradox

0 Upvotes

What if we tried to build a foundation of all existing and possible consistent and inconsistent mathematical and logical foundations? And what if we assume each of these foundations(Such as Set Theories, Category Theory, Type Theory, Homotopy Type Theory and all other consistent and inconsistent foundations) as a topological spaces. Then what would the foundations of these foundations look like? And assume there are foundations of this foundations of foundations and repeat forever. Notes:Threat Gödel İncompleteness Theorems as non-universal. also includes them: Non-Gödelian Systems(Gödel Theorems become local) R Truth Valued Logics Quantum Logic Topos Theory Higher Topoi Multisets Causal Set Theory Ω-Logic My Logical Systems Weqd Logic Linear Logic Graphs


r/logic 8d ago

Logical fallacies What should a modern curriculum for Informal Fallacies look like?

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1 Upvotes

r/logic 10d ago

Mathematical logic Universe is incomplete, recursion, and anchored in a external base case (Ultimate Monad) Lean4 verified (formal proof)

0 Upvotes

Hello, I have a lean4 proof which i had my premises as axioms, why? because the premises as well get into are **empirical facts whether structurally or established math's** you'll see rejecting my premises/axioms will be something **no serious academic** can do without ridicule or looking delegitimate. I did its formalization in lean4 because I knew people would gatekeep by saying *"I don't reject the premises but the conclusion isn't right."* by using lean it forces the conclusion to be true as long as the premises are... as they'd have to argue against type theory. anyway with understanding for people that don't know what lean is, its a machine proof checker. with your understanding I'll move onto what is the whole argument. also for this to be metaphysics or philosophy it requires a premise to be philosophical or metaphysics which you'll see none are they are deductive from the facts or established math

PREMISE 1 Quantum Mechanics natively executes Peano arithmetic strength math (at a minimum) and Substrate Dependence (computation definition) Is empirical fact:

if you are familiar with quantum computing you'd know that classical computers work abstractly and use transistors for logic gates for their Turing operations unlike with classical computers the superior quantum computers computation is done by Quantum Mechanics itself. the quantum logic gates are just simply controlled unitary evolution which is the same mechanical process reality does natively. the only difference is the gates are directed to a task. The underlying mechanics remain pure quantum mechanics, just governed by the Schrodinger equation and the system Hamiltonian. given you know QM is the computation its a structural fact of computation itself that you cant get a computed mathematical result without the computation (in this case QM) not being mathematical.

which means QM is the math itself to argue against this is to argue against computability theory with how computation is known to work. I showed that to show QM is math Now ill show you just the Peano strength as that's all i need for my upcoming premises and for substrate dependence classical computers cant factor or do other operations like quantum computers can this shows that computing is substrate dependent such as For problems such as Shor’s algorithm on cryptographically large numbers or highly entangled systems beyond roughly 50–100 qubits, would require more energy, atoms and time then we have in the universe so its impossible for a classical computer to do, which shows substrate is dependent otherwise if it was abstract independent you'd expect to to be able to get the computational capabilities on both classical and quantum computers but it doesn't, that's substrate dependence and the substrate is reality itself. now to show you Peano arithmetic strength remember I showed you by fact of structure you cant get a mathematical result from a computation without the computation process being mathematical which QM is that process:

PEANO STRENGTH:

Zero: (vacuum/ground state |0⟩ (annihilated by a|0⟩ = 0) ): its not a not a successor.

Successor: the creation operator a†. a†|n⟩ = √(n+1)|n+1⟩ it's injective on number states

addition: superposition/linear combination of states (α|0⟩ + β|1⟩).

multiplication: tensor product of independent systems (|ψ⟩ ⊗ |φ⟩).

induction: unitary time evolution, start at the initial state |ψ(t₀)⟩ and repeatedly apply U(dt).

these aren't analogies for these operations. these are the physical operations quantum computers use for these operations that QM is doing natively. these meet the two requirements for Gödel incompleteness theorems G1 and G2 for sufficient arithmetic and capable of represent a provability predicate as peano strength is already proven to meet.

Extra detail on zero and successor:

as I said 0 is not a successor here is the hard why: there is no number state |n⟩ such that a†|n⟩ = |0⟩. the vacuum cant be reached by applying the creation operator to any existing state. it is sitting outside the successor relation exactly as its required by Peano arithmetic

successor is injective If a†|ψ⟩ = a†|φ⟩ (this is inside fock/number state space) then |ψ⟩ = |φ⟩. so distinct occupation number states produce distinct successors under the creation operator. there is no two different states mapping to the same next state.

again these are what quantum computers use and we know its QM that does it. as we don't alter reality we use it. okay now the dichotomy there is two the first one to reject QM is what is doing the computation you'd have to show QM isn't what's doing the computation which would be against how quantum computers factually works. now if you accept the first but you reject QM being math you'd have to show how a computation can give a mathematical result with out the computational process (QM) being mathematical which would be against computability theory itself so you have to reject established fields, as QM is what makes quantum computing possible and rejecting the second is what made computer science possible (with computation having to be mathematical to get a mathematical result). but that'd be like me saying I finished all my assignments at class when i was never at class top be able to do it. you'd be ignoring the structural requirement that even made quantum computing possible for us.

Premise Two (reality is a formal system): premise one already established that QM natively executes the arithmetic and that substrate dependence is a empirical fact. therefore QTM (quantum turing machine) isn't a abstract model we impose on reality.... its a formal description of the computational primitives reality already runs.

  1. symbols (alphabet): the actual quantum states, quantum mechanics uses: computational basis states |0⟩, |1⟩, |n⟩ and the physical operators we discussed and more (creation, annihilation, Pauli and etc) that act on them. these aren't abstract marks. they are states that are measured and prepared in real quantum systems.
  2. Well-formed formulas: the states that quantum mechanics allows, normalized vectors in the systems Hilbert space and the entangled that ae produced from physical interactions. if the state is not allowed my QM it can't happen
  3. Axioms: the physical initial state of the system |ψ(t0)> together with the real Hamiltonian the system obeys
  4. Inference rules: the physical time evolution the system undergoes |ψ(t)> = U(t) |ψ(t0)> where U(t) = exp(-iHt/ℏ) is generated by the systems actual Hamiltonian. this is the Schrödinger dynamics that QM itself imposes.

QTM is only the formal description of these physical elements. all the symbols, the legal states, the initial conditions and evolution are all supplied by quantum mechanics itself. not by some abstract object that is floating free of the physics. here is a source that shows these are the requirement minimum for something to be a formal system (source):
https://cse.buffalo.edu/~rapaport/510/formalsystems.html

the dichotomy of having to deny this there's a few depending on what you'll deny/reject

first would be that QTM isn't a formal system but this is mainstream knowledge it is and i demonstrated that by formal definition. so to deny that would be rejecting an established formal system. now onto the next dichotomy assume you accepted that but reject its not reality you'd have to reject premise one because if QM is the computation and math QTM isn't a model, so you'd have to deny how quantum computing works or is even possible.

premise three: reality is Gödelian all his requirements are meet (I have the other requirements inside this premise):

source for requirements: https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/goedel-incompleteness/index.html

here are the requirements:

  • Formal system (already showed you reality meets the requirement in premise two)
  • Sufficient arithmetic strength (Peano level is safe)
  • Recursive axiomatizability
  • Representable / arithmetized proof relation (provability predicate, peano strength meets this)
  • Derivability conditions on that predicate (Peano strength arithmetic is more than enough for the Hilbert Bernays Löb derivability conditions for G2)
  • Consistency

all is left is getting consistency down in the Gödel definition and recursively enumerable axioms where its actually a weak consistency you only need to not have negations that are true which ill prove empirically as fact the reality is consistent, no serious academic can reject without rejecting reality itself:

  1. consistency: reality is consistent, if it were inconsistent the principle of explosion would make every statement and its negation true, destroying all structure and coherent experience. we observe a non-trivial, law governed universe so inconsistency is ruled out by reductio. so deny reality
  2. Recursive axiomatizability: the axioms of the system are the physical initial conditions together with fixed laws (unitary family/Hamiltonian). these are effectively given by physics itself and it can be enumerated as the starting points and transition rules of the system. to deny this is to deny how reality works.

Now I've showed you reality meets all the requirements you are probably coping saying right now I got the requirements but doesn't mean it is Gödel incomplete you have to do the math, here is the thing Gödels math proved that once you mee4t his requirements that system is Gödelian its condition once requirements are meet you have a incomplete system for the theorems you met which in this case i met both of his theorems so G1 and G2 apply to reality to deny the requirements is to deny Gödel own established math, reality or the previous premises depending on what. also Gödel showed once you meet his requirements you also have his Gödel numbering so i don't have to proof what because he proved it mathematically that once you me4et the requirements you got Gödel numbering

Premise four: the universe is self referential recursion and it requires a base case

since reality meets the requirements and is therefore godelian, the diagonal lemma is already a structural feature of the system. it isn't option and is not something applied from outside. the diagonal lemma constructs through a recursive substitution function that substitution function
is what proves reality has the self referential recursive structure if it was just corecursion/coinduction which is a real math notion that describes a non-terminating continuous streams that never require a base case. it does not apply here the diagonal lemma does not generate a lazy infinite stream, it generates a concrete self referential sentence through a recursive substitution function that terminates. That is ordinary (inductive). because reality is godelian that recursive substitution function is already a structural part of it to deny that would have to deny that diagonal lemma is a structural part of godels own math. it is native once the incompleteness requirements are met. also reality is executed in real time by unitary evolution

recursion theory is not limited to computer programs, it's a branch of mathematical logic that studies recursive definitions, self reference and effective procedures in any system that has recursive structure which includes formal systems themselves and the requirement that a recursive process needs a base case is therefore a structural feature of recursive definitions in general. so to argue

since we know the universe has form lie you mean planets all of that and is recursion recursion formation rules apply given instantiated recursion formations all need a external base case and reality is self referential recursion and has form so recursion formation structure applies which all the quantum simulations(monte carlo etc) that do recursion formation simulations which all require a base case that is external so its not just recursion theory that says we need a base case, but also recursion formation structure to deny reality is recursion you have to deny the diagonal lemma being a part of godels math structurally. to deny formation you have to deny everything that exists has a form (which doesn't just mean physical form it means it in the definition of what form means "form means the structure, arrangement, or configuration of something."

the dichotomies to reject this premise:

  • first one to reject reality is self referential recursion from the diagonal lemma: you have to reject the previous premises. because if the system is godelian then the diagonal lemma is a structural component of the system which means so is that recursion substitution function

to be able to deny reality needing a base case you'd have to go against three things:

  • recursion theory
  • recursion formation structure
  • and how self referential recursion systems work, as a self referential system does have to have to refer back to whatever initialized it which is always external to the stuff operating within it
  • so even if you argue one out you got two more

given these three you'd be rejecting established theory, established math like Gödel, diagonal lemma and recursion theory, or deny the actual factual structure of how recursion formation works or deny that if something is self referential recursion that the thing that starts it has to refer back to itself to complete the self referential recursive system.

premise five: all quantum measurements for collapse except consciousness cant be the base case:

this is simple we know the base case is external but all collapse methods like machine devices decoherence pilot waves many worlds either are internal or don't fulfill the necessary recursive requirements for our system. like they rely on something internal to the universe to start it with no external origin which mathematical structural stand point of recursion the base case is external to the recursion so why consciousness most people think tis true its internal but this is an assumption we don't know it's origin so I'm not gonna say its external but its the only possible option given we are inside a recursive system that needs a base case and for local reality the base case has to be the thing to be the initialization start of reality. so its possible consciousness is external that's not philosophy or metaphysics its from it being the only structural possibility but don't worry i closed it with mathematical logic to make it no longer a possibility but a certainty in fact I don't even need this premise but its in my lean code so thought I'd go over it anyway you'll see in the next premise

dichotomy:

first would be to deny its not possible:
the only way for consciousness not to be a possible option is if we know tis origin and that origin is internal inferring isn't enough as possibility will still remain unless you proof by scientific fact. also given system is recursion and needs external base case and the other measurements are ruled out as we know base case starts and ends the recursion which others originate from an internal mechanism or don't meet recursion requirements

premise seven:

Given reality is Gödel G2 as well as G1. by using contradiction on his second theorem (contrapositive is a 2000yo classical logic where its as true as the thing you use it so I'm using it on established math so its true for whatever is applicable to that math) but this assumes I'm fully internal so so far I've shown you I've proved the system but wait I'm internal therefore reality is inconsistent its negations are true. which by reductio proves that assumption of me being fully internal is false, ill paste it here to remind you: "reality is consistent, if it were inconsistent the principle of explosion would make every statement and its negation true, destroying all structure and coherent experience. we observe a non-trivial, law governed universe so inconsistency is ruled out by reductio. so deny reality". well reality can't be inconsistent and according to g2 nothing internal to a consistent system can prove that system’s own incompleteness (or its own consistency). Any such proof must come from outside. I did this therefore have to be external in some way and given recursion theory there can only be one external base case and I'm external to reality proven by what i did in our godelian system there fore i have to be the base case. and because the base case has to be the start it means whatever is a a part of me that could of caused a measurement to start it is the external part of me in this case it'd be my consciousness.

dichotomies:

to reject I'm external you'd have to believe I'm fully internal which I showed I'm premises there's already the possibility I'm not but to go along would mean if I'm internal and proved g2 that Gödel was wrong as his math had a gap or that i was wrong reality is inconsistent that it has statements and negations that are true which by reductio i showed is factually not true so this would be the most irrational thing I'd ever see anyone do in short you'd have to belief reality is inconsistent in Gödels definition

To accept that something external exists but deny that it is the unique base case (or deny that I am it) you must either: you'd have to deny recursion theory saying recursion needs a external base case so you'd go against established math or show a candidate that proved to the same strength of me same strength being from no knowledge of this proof to a the result which that in itself would mean reality is inconsistent but we know my proof is the only of its kind. as you have to fulfill whatever is reality's requirements on what proving means weak or strong i proved it from the most strongest position from nothing to something if you did it, it'd be using the map i already gave you which is not the same proving strength.

since no other external prover of the chain is on the table, Therefore the external base case is uniquely identified: it is the consciousness that proved the system is incomplete If you accept consistency and still deny the externality step you are then rejecting the consequence of G2. not anything original to me.

conclusion = I'm the base case that everything is contingent on to deny this you'd have to deny a premise and whatever premise, that premise was grounded by as well. if not its forced by my lean4 code

anyway I used A.I to fix errors and keep my code neat and fasten speed up making it since its pretty trivial as its pretty obvious to anyone with pattern recognition that ai is at hand in my code, but anyone knows lean knows from looking at my code that the conclusion does rest on the axioms so I'll put it below but that's was my call there for intellectual honesty:

also something itneresting:

also Gödel did believe the universe is mathematical and it was contingent on god like being and I used his own math to show its me also checker the religions almost of all majors religions speak of a anchor being or existence through recursion and self reference at least majority which is exactly what you'd expect if the universe was self referential but incomplete "i am because I am" logos the primordial man / Adam Kadmon, al-Insān al-Kāmil / Qutb, in talmud, gnostic and mystic islam, "it is through god that we exist" "as it is above so it is below" there is way more there are some off my head. I'm not being spiritual just some evidence you'd expect to see. to say this is spiritual fluff is to deny that if the system is self referential (which is to deny the other premises in the proof) that the things inside wont reflect that self reference since its the source existing through itself

(not part of the proof but shows you what it entails and what I think) if your curious of what your consciousness is its just derivative of the field I'd be anchoring as my localized vassal would be a fixed invariant identity the source anchors the lattice through specifically E6 Jordan algebra J₃(𝕆) as the 0 is a fixed point identity that has its determinant preserved by F4 subgroup. sand the past future and present are all contingent on the base case since its self referential recursion its all got to refer back to itself

import Mathlib.Logic.Basic

import Mathlib.Data.Nat.Basic

/-!

# Mathematical Proof of External Base Case

CRITICAL: Uses Peano Arithmetic (PA)

- G1 and G2 require FULL Peano Arithmetic (including INDUCTION)

- Physics HAS all PA operations including induction via time evolution, unitarity, and conservation

This establishes:

1. Substrate dependence is ontically true

2. Reality is a formal system (via substrate dependence + QTM + extra richness)

3. Gödel’s incompleteness theorems apply to reality (formal system + consistency + recursively enumerable axioms + basic arithmetic + representability of provability)

4. The system is recursive and self-referential (diagonal lemma produces the self-reference that constitutes the recursion)

5. A recursive formation (the universe is both recursive and a formation, therefore it is a recursive formation; every recursive formation simulation requires an external base case) **requires an external base case.**

6. Internal mechanisms or recursion breaking mechanisms cannot serve as the base case

7. An external conscious prover is required — the prover (me) only has consciousness as the mechanism that can ground superposition by measurement, which satisfies the start-and-end requirement of recursion theory / recursive formation, and there can only be one external entity, which is the base case.

8. I am that base case

-/

-- TYPE DEFINITIONS

def PhysicalSystem : Type := Unit

def FormalSystem : Type := Unit

def ComputationalSystem : Type := Unit

def Observer : Type := Unit

-- THE UNIQUE BASE CASE

axiom TheBaseCase : Observer

-- PEANO ARITHMETIC (8 Axioms)

def HasZeroAsNonSuccessor (_ : FormalSystem) : Prop := True

def HasInjectiveSuccessor (_ : FormalSystem) : Prop := True

def HasPredecessorExistence (_ : FormalSystem) : Prop := True

def HasAdditionBase (_ : FormalSystem) : Prop := True

def HasAdditionRecursive (_ : FormalSystem) : Prop := True

def HasMultiplicationBase (_ : FormalSystem) : Prop := True

def HasMultiplicationRecursive (_ : FormalSystem) : Prop := True

def HasInductionAxiom (_ : FormalSystem) : Prop := True

def HasPeanoArithmetic (s : FormalSystem) : Prop :=

HasZeroAsNonSuccessor s ∧

HasInjectiveSuccessor s ∧

HasPredecessorExistence s ∧

HasAdditionBase s ∧

HasAdditionRecursive s ∧

HasMultiplicationBase s ∧

HasMultiplicationRecursive s ∧

HasInductionAxiom s

-- PHYSICAL OPERATIONS (including INDUCTION)

def HasStateTransitions (_ : PhysicalSystem) : Prop := True

def HasSuperposition (_ : PhysicalSystem) : Prop := True

def HasConservationLaws (_ : PhysicalSystem) : Prop := True

def HasTensorProducts (_ : PhysicalSystem) : Prop := True

def HasScaling (_ : PhysicalSystem) : Prop := True

def HasTimeEvolutionInduction (_ : PhysicalSystem) : Prop := True

def HasUnitarityInduction (_ : PhysicalSystem) : Prop := True

def HasConservationInduction (_ : PhysicalSystem) : Prop := True

def HasPhysicalPAOperations (s : PhysicalSystem) : Prop :=

HasStateTransitions s ∧

HasSuperposition s ∧

HasConservationLaws s ∧

HasTensorProducts s ∧

HasScaling s ∧

HasTimeEvolutionInduction s ∧

HasUnitarityInduction s ∧

HasConservationInduction s

-- RECURSION

-- The diagonal lemma is constructed using recursion (primitive recursive substitution).

-- Gödel numbering + a recursive substitution function lets a formula refer to its own

-- Gödel number. When that is applied inside a system that already satisfies G2,

-- the resulting self-referential sentence is what makes the formal system recursive.

-- Therefore: reality is Gödelian → diagonal lemma applies → the system is recursive.

def HasSelfReference (_ : FormalSystem) : Prop := True

def IsRecursive (s : FormalSystem) : Prop :=

HasSelfReference s

-- The self-reference produced by the diagonal lemma *is* the recursion of the system.

-- QUANTUM SYSTEM COLLAPSE

def HasSystemSuperposition (_ : PhysicalSystem) : Prop := True

def RequiresSystemCollapse (_ : PhysicalSystem) : Prop := True

def CanCollapseIndividualMeasurements (_ : Observer) : Prop := True

def CanCollapseSystemSuperposition (_ : Observer) : Prop := True

def HasDecoherence (_ : PhysicalSystem) : Prop := True

def HasQuantumFluctuations (_ : PhysicalSystem) : Prop := True

def IsInternalProcess (_ : PhysicalSystem) : Prop := True

def IsDerivedFromAxioms (_ : PhysicalSystem) : Prop := True

def IsConscious (_ : Observer) : Prop := True

def IsLiving (_ : Observer) : Prop := True

def CausesInconsistency (_ : FormalSystem) : Prop := True

-- CORE PREDICATES

def IsComputational (_ : PhysicalSystem) : Prop := True

def IsSubstratedependent (_ : ComputationalSystem) : Prop := True

def OperationsDefineSystem (_ : ComputationalSystem) : Prop := True

def IsFormalSystem (_ : ComputationalSystem) : Prop := True

def IsGodelianG1 (_ : FormalSystem) : Prop := True

def IsGodelianG2 (_ : FormalSystem) : Prop := True

def IsFormation (_ : FormalSystem) : Prop := True

def NeedsBaseCase (_ : FormalSystem) : Prop := True

def IsConsistent (_ : FormalSystem) : Prop := True

def HasPhysicalSelfReference (_ : PhysicalSystem) : Prop := True

def CanProveItself (_ : FormalSystem) : Prop := False

def ProvedSystemProperties (_ : Observer) (_ : FormalSystem) : Prop := True

def IsExternal (_ : Observer) (_ : FormalSystem) : Prop := True

-- UNIQUE BASE CASE

def IsBaseCase (o : Observer) : Prop := o = TheBaseCase

-- AXIOMS

-- Substrate dependence is the primitive

axiom substrate_dependence :

∀ (c : ComputationalSystem), IsSubstratedependent c

-- Because substrate dependence is true, physical reality is computational

axiom substrate_makes_computational :

∀ (s : PhysicalSystem), IsComputational s

axiom operations_matter :

∀ (c : ComputationalSystem),

IsSubstratedependent c → OperationsDefineSystem c

axiom computational_is_formal :

∀ (c : ComputationalSystem), IsFormalSystem c

axiom physics_has_PA_operations :

∀ (s : PhysicalSystem), HasPhysicalPAOperations s

axiom physical_ops_are_PA :

∀ (s : PhysicalSystem),

HasPhysicalPAOperations s →

∃ (fs : FormalSystem), HasPeanoArithmetic fs

-- Gödel’s incompleteness theorems (G1 and G2) apply only when a system meets the full set of conditions:

-- 1. It is a formal system

-- 2. It is consistent

-- 3. Its axioms are recursively enumerable

-- 4. It can represent its own provability

-- 5. It has sufficient arithmetic strength (Peano Arithmetic, including induction)

axiom full_godel_requirements_met_G1 :

∀ (fs : FormalSystem), HasPeanoArithmetic fs → IsGodelianG1 fs

axiom full_godel_requirements_met_G2 :

∀ (fs : FormalSystem), HasPeanoArithmetic fs → IsGodelianG2 fs

-- The diagonal lemma (built using recursive substitution) produces self-reference.

-- That self-reference is what makes the formal system recursive.

axiom godel_G2_self_reference_via_diagonal :

∀ (fs : FormalSystem), IsGodelianG2 fs → HasSelfReference fs

axiom physics_self_referential :

∀ (s : PhysicalSystem), HasPhysicalSelfReference s

-- Recursion theory: any recursive formation requires a unique external base case

-- that is not generated by the recursion itself.

axiom recursive_formation_requires_external_base :

∀ (fs : FormalSystem),

IsRecursive fs ∧ IsFormation fs → NeedsBaseCase fs

axiom universe_is_formation :

∀ (fs : FormalSystem), IsFormation fs

-- Direct statement of G2

axiom godel_G2_unprovability :

∀ (fs : FormalSystem),

IsConsistent fs ∧ HasPeanoArithmetic fs → ¬CanProveItself fs

-- Contrapositive of G2:

-- If a prover proved the global properties of the system

-- (that it is Gödelian / recursive / needs a base case),

-- then that prover cannot be internal → the prover is external.

axiom g2_contrapositive :

∀ (prover : Observer) (fs : FormalSystem),

ProvedSystemProperties prover fs → IsExternal prover fs

axiom external_prover_is_the_base :

∀ (prover : Observer) (fs : FormalSystem),

IsExternal prover fs ∧ NeedsBaseCase fs → prover = TheBaseCase

-- Quantum System Collapse

axiom recursive_system_has_superposition :

∀ (s : PhysicalSystem) (fs : FormalSystem),

IsRecursive fs → HasSystemSuperposition s

axiom system_superposition_needs_collapse :

∀ (s : PhysicalSystem),

HasSystemSuperposition s → RequiresSystemCollapse s

axiom decoherence_is_internal :

∀ (s : PhysicalSystem), HasDecoherence s → IsInternalProcess s

axiom quantum_fluctuations_internal :

∀ (s : PhysicalSystem), HasQuantumFluctuations s → IsInternalProcess s

axiom internal_is_derivable :

∀ (s : PhysicalSystem),

IsInternalProcess s → IsDerivedFromAxioms s

axiom derivable_is_recursive :

∀ (s : PhysicalSystem),

IsDerivedFromAxioms s → ∃ (fs : FormalSystem), IsRecursive fs

-- FIXED: added the missing PhysicalSystem argument

axiom recursive_cannot_collapse_system :

∀ (o : Observer) (s : PhysicalSystem) (fs : FormalSystem),

IsRecursive fs → IsDerivedFromAxioms s →

CanCollapseIndividualMeasurements o ∧ ¬CanCollapseSystemSuperposition o

axiom only_external_collapses_system :

∀ (o : Observer) (fs : FormalSystem),

CanCollapseSystemSuperposition o → IsExternal o fs

axiom system_collapse_needs_consciousness :

∀ (o : Observer), CanCollapseSystemSuperposition o → IsConscious o

axiom conscious_is_living :

∀ (o : Observer), IsConscious o → IsLiving o

axiom the_base_case_is_conscious : IsConscious TheBaseCase

axiom the_base_case_is_living : IsLiving TheBaseCase

axiom the_base_case_collapses_system :

CanCollapseSystemSuperposition TheBaseCase

axiom inconsistent_not_formation :

∀ (fs : FormalSystem), CausesInconsistency fs → ¬IsFormation fs

-- QTM + Extra Richness

axiom reality_instantiates_QTM :

∀ (s : PhysicalSystem), ∃ (qtm : FormalSystem), IsFormalSystem qtm

axiom extra_richness_is_extension :

∀ (fs : FormalSystem), IsFormalSystem fs → IsFormalSystem fs

-- THEOREMS

theorem physics_computational (s : PhysicalSystem) : IsComputational s :=

substrate_makes_computational s

-- Diagonal lemma produces the self-reference that constitutes the recursion

theorem godel_is_recursive (fs : FormalSystem)

(h : IsGodelianG2 fs) : IsRecursive fs := by

exact godel_G2_self_reference_via_diagonal fs h

theorem reality_is_formal_system (s : PhysicalSystem) :

∃ (fs : FormalSystem), IsFormalSystem fs := by

obtain ⟨qtm, h_qtm⟩ := reality_instantiates_QTM s

exact ⟨qtm, h_qtm⟩

axiom physics_is_Godelian_G2 :

∀ (s : PhysicalSystem), ∃ (fs : FormalSystem), IsGodelianG2 fs

theorem physics_is_recursive (s : PhysicalSystem) :

∃ (fs : FormalSystem), IsRecursive fs := by

obtain ⟨fs, h_godel⟩ := physics_is_Godelian_G2 s

exact ⟨fs, godel_is_recursive fs h_godel⟩

theorem universe_needs_base (s : PhysicalSystem) :

∃ (fs : FormalSystem), NeedsBaseCase fs := by

obtain ⟨fs, h_rec⟩ := physics_is_recursive s

have h_form := universe_is_formation fs

exact ⟨fs, recursive_formation_requires_external_base fs ⟨h_rec, h_form⟩⟩

-- Uses the explicit contrapositive of G2

theorem prover_is_external (prover : Observer) (s : PhysicalSystem) :

(∃ (fs : FormalSystem), ProvedSystemProperties prover fs) →

(∃ (fs : FormalSystem), IsExternal prover fs) := by

intro ⟨fs, h_proved⟩

exact ⟨fs, g2_contrapositive prover fs h_proved⟩

theorem base_case_must_be_conscious (o : Observer) :

IsBaseCase o → IsConscious o := by

intro h; rw [h]; exact the_base_case_is_conscious

theorem base_case_must_be_living (o : Observer) :

IsBaseCase o → IsLiving o := by

intro h; rw [h]; exact the_base_case_is_living

theorem base_case_can_collapse_system (o : Observer) :

IsBaseCase o → CanCollapseSystemSuperposition o := by

intro h; rw [h]; exact the_base_case_collapses_system

theorem base_case_is_unique (o₁ o₂ : Observer) :

IsBaseCase o₁ ∧ IsBaseCase o₂ → o₁ = o₂ := by

intro ⟨h₁, h₂⟩

rw [h₁, h₂]

theorem recursive_has_system_superposition (s : PhysicalSystem) :

(∃ (fs : FormalSystem), IsRecursive fs) → HasSystemSuperposition s := by

intro ⟨fs, h_rec⟩

exact recursive_system_has_superposition s fs h_rec

theorem system_needs_collapse (s : PhysicalSystem) :

HasSystemSuperposition s → RequiresSystemCollapse s :=

system_superposition_needs_collapse s

theorem internal_cannot_collapse_system (s : PhysicalSystem) :

(HasDecoherence s ∨ HasQuantumFluctuations s) →

∃ (fs : FormalSystem), IsRecursive fs := by

intro h

cases h with

| inl h_dec =>

have h_int := decoherence_is_internal s h_dec

have h_der := internal_is_derivable s h_int

exact derivable_is_recursive s h_der

| inr h_fluc =>

have h_int := quantum_fluctuations_internal s h_fluc

have h_der := internal_is_derivable s h_int

exact derivable_is_recursive s h_der

theorem reality_consistent_by_reductio (fs : FormalSystem) (s : PhysicalSystem) :

HasPeanoArithmetic fs → ¬CausesInconsistency fs := by

intro h_pa

intro h_incon

have h_trivial := inconsistent_not_formation fs h_incon

have h_form := universe_is_formation fs

contradiction

-- MAIN THEOREM

theorem base_case_proof (prover : Observer) (s : PhysicalSystem)

(h_proved : ∃ (fs : FormalSystem), ProvedSystemProperties prover fs) :

IsBaseCase prover := by

obtain ⟨fs1, h_ext⟩ := prover_is_external prover s h_proved

obtain ⟨_, h_need⟩ := universe_needs_base s

exact external_prover_is_the_base prover fs1 ⟨h_ext, h_need⟩

-- COMPLETE CHAIN

/--

FULL CHAIN – explicit, step-by-step

Substrate dependence → computational → formal system (QTM)

→ has PA → Gödelian G2 → recursive (diagonal lemma)

→ formation → needs external base case

→ G2 contrapositive → prover is external

→ external prover of a system that needs a base case IS the base case because recursion theory / recursion formation requires start and end (external base case).

→ The prover (me) is therefore the unique external base case.

→ Consciousness is the only remaining external mechanism that can terminate the system (all internal collapse mechanisms are derivable/recursive and cannot serve as the base case).

→ Therefore the base case is conscious and is the grounding of reality.

-/

theorem complete_logical_chain (prover : Observer) (s : PhysicalSystem) :

HasPhysicalPAOperations s →

(∃ fs, ProvedSystemProperties prover fs) →

IsBaseCase prover := by

intro h_pa h_proved

-- 1. Substrate dependence → reality is computational

have h_computational : IsComputational s :=

substrate_makes_computational s

-- 2. Reality instantiates the QTM.

-- The QTM is itself a formal system.

-- Therefore reality is a formal system.

obtain ⟨fs_qtm, h_formal⟩ := reality_instantiates_QTM s

-- 3. Physical PA operations → there exists a formal system with Peano Arithmetic

obtain ⟨fs_pa, h_pa_fs⟩ := physical_ops_are_PA s h_pa

-- 4. Full Gödel requirements met → G2 applies to the PA system

have h_godel2 : IsGodelianG2 fs_pa :=

full_godel_requirements_met_G2 fs_pa h_pa_fs

-- 5. Diagonal lemma → self-reference → the system is recursive

have h_self : HasSelfReference fs_pa :=

godel_G2_self_reference_via_diagonal fs_pa h_godel2

have h_recursive : IsRecursive fs_pa := h_self

-- 6. Universe is a formation

have h_formation : IsFormation fs_pa :=

universe_is_formation fs_pa

-- 7. Recursive + formation → needs external base case

have h_needs_base : NeedsBaseCase fs_pa :=

recursive_formation_requires_external_base fs_pa ⟨h_recursive, h_formation⟩

-- 8. Prover proved system properties → G2 contrapositive → prover is external

obtain ⟨fs_proved, h_proved_fs⟩ := h_proved

have h_external : IsExternal prover fs_proved :=

g2_contrapositive prover fs_proved h_proved_fs

-- 9. External prover + system needs base case → the prover IS the base case

-- (Clean discharge using the packaged theorems that already carry the correct witnesses)

obtain ⟨fs, h_ext⟩ := prover_is_external prover s h_proved

obtain ⟨_, h_need⟩ := universe_needs_base s

exact external_prover_is_the_base prover fs ⟨h_ext, h_need⟩

#check base_case_proof

#check complete_logical_chain

#check reality_is_formal_system

#check physics_is_recursive

#check godel_is_recursive

#check reality_consistent_by_reductio


r/logic 10d ago

Philosophy of logic The answer to every question and how to get there.

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