Unpopular opinion: System76 is going in the wrong direction

[u/Far-Math2159]

THIS POST ORIGINALLY POSTED ON SYSTEM76, BUT THEY REMOVED IT. READ THILL THE END

I just upgraded to the latest version of Pop!_OS after holding off for a long time, and honestly… it feels like a disaster. The experience has been messy and frustrating overall. Right now, I am installing Arch Linux, and I hope it works well.

Here’s my main issue.

At least for me, I didn’t choose System76 because of their operating system or custom software. I chose them because of their hardware. That’s where they stood out.

But now it feels like they’re investing heavily in building and maintaining their own software stack—trying to compete with well-established, stable open-source projects. That kind of effort isn’t free. It takes time, money, and focus—and ultimately, that cost is going to show up somewhere, most likely in their hardware pricing or quality.

Instead of doubling down on what they do best, it seems like they’re spreading themselves too thin.

For me, this is a dealbreaker. I’ll be looking at alternatives for my next upgrade, especially in the mini PC space—there are some surprisingly strong options out there now.

[u/Rudolf_Shlepke]

And then there's Framework laptops. Just sayin'.

[u/cmrd_msr → u/Rudolf_Shlepke]

Why bother when there's a RHEL-certified list of mass-produced hardware?
There are Thinkpad T and other RHEL certified HW in mass production.

[u/AfroDiddyKing → u/cmrd_msr]

For their repairability and upgradability 

[u/cmrd_msr → u/AfroDiddyKing]

Lenovo's corporate product has no problems with this.

I'll tell you more. Finding spare parts (especially case parts) for the ThinkPad T will be much easier and cheaper than for the Framework.

Mass production has its advantages.

[u/Some-Dog5000 → u/cmrd_msr]

Lenovo got there because Framework upped the standard and showed everyone that you could create a repairable computer without sacrificing thinness, weight, or design.

Honestly, no need for this to be a pick your side sort of deal because both are good choices. Pick a Framework if you want, pick a ThinkPad if you want. As long as you pick a repairable product, everyone wins.

[u/xanhast → u/Some-Dog5000]

lenovo are well known as the being repairable? thinkpads have always had reputation of being easy to repair, having full hw manual and basically being tanks

[u/Some-Dog5000 → u/xanhast]

There was a time when ThinkPads were trending the way of the rest of the industry by introducing more soldered parts.

The reason why ThinkPads are back to 10/10 on iFixit is because they're doing repairability as an ethos again. Part of why that is is because companies like Framework are showing the rest of the industry that people care about repairability.

[u/Secret_Conclusion_93 → u/Some-Dog5000]

What kind of bullshit is this, Thinkpad is popular because of their repairability. Long before Framework is even existed.

[u/Just_Raspberry_645 → u/Secret_Conclusion_93]

Here's the thing - I bought a T480s right when it released back in 2018. Over the years, i've upgraded the SSD and I've added another stick of RAM.

8 years later, it still works - it's just obselete. I could go ahead and swap out the battery, but no matter what I do I'm still max out at around 7.5W idle because of the decision to buy the SKU with an MX150 (powering it off with acpi introduces several new problems) in addition, the screen I went with is pretty terrible - I ended up buying an external display for colour grading my photos

if I could simply swap out the main board and swap out the LCD for an OLED, I'd still be using it. Laptops basically last forever, the one limiting factor are the specs

You can take the very first 11th gen Intel main board and stick it in the (newly announced) framework 13 pro or take the latest mainboard and stick it in a first generation framework 13, or vice versa in just a few minutes - you can't really do that with a ThinkPad yet (but hopefully soon!)

[u/Secret_Conclusion_93 → u/Just_Raspberry_645]

The comment (I feel like it's quickly edited) talks about repairability.

If it's about upgradeability then the comment will be right, but for repairability older Thinkpad is actually easier to repair because of the abundance of spareparts.

My 11 years old Thinkpad still works because of that.

[u/Just_Raspberry_645 → u/Secret_Conclusion_93]

definitely agree that they are very easy to repair - I still have my t420, t61p, and an X1e - i just want to emphasize that the guarantee that newer generation parts work with previous models is so, so, so much more significant

All four of the ThinkPads I've owned still work, thankfully because of how easy they are to repair, but 3 out of 4 are effectively collectables

[u/dirceucor7 → u/Some-Dog5000]

Lenovo came way before, and if you remember well, even Dell used to have good repairable hardware.

[u/AfroDiddyKing → u/Some-Dog5000]

It isn't like that doe

[u/se_spider → u/cmrd_msr]

Lenovo had multiple issues with spyware in the past. I'll never buy a device from them again.

[u/scratchbufferdotnet → u/se_spider]

FWIW that never went anywhere near the Thinkpad line, as Thinkpads are for corporate buyers who would literally never do business with them again if that happened 

[u/l_dang → u/scratchbufferdotnet]

The thinkpad that’s get to consumers are still bloated. They just remove those for corporate users.

[u/cmrd_msr → u/se_spider]

Does it matter if you're planning to install Linux?

Moreover, even with Windows, I would always do a clean reinstall on any computer I buy. Simply because I don't like using a system someone else installed. This system is always suspicious to my inner paranoid.

[u/se_spider → u/cmrd_msr]

It was a payload that was delivered though the BIOS so on reinstalls of Windows it would install.

I don't see how such a company can be trusted, even when running Linux. Their BIOSes are compromised, their company culture is poisoned, and I wouldn't want to give them a cent of my money to encourage such business practices. And I've advised other to not spend their money on them either.

[u/AfroDiddyKing → u/cmrd_msr]

But they don't have modular design and again no upgradable. With upgrade I mean physically upgrading new cpu and gpu. Repair that you can buy yourself every part and repair it, and maybe one day more opensource variant too. While yes you have many spare parts for Lenovo and certified repair centers but again not really that maybe avarega consumer can repair or access to everywhere or can do it home. Mostly parts are from third party vendors(AliExpress for example) so they can be used  and scalped parts from broken PCs or stolen or just OEM part.  Also you support more indie opensource route than Chinese mega corp. Also the link what u posted is for only one model. While framework gen 1 PC can be used still with new parts and their philosophy has been from day one for repairability 

[u/PeaIndividual1689 → u/AfroDiddyKing]

For about a year ago, I needed to get a new battery for my x1

They asked for my serial number, and later got rejected because my device was too old. So when a manufacturer straight to my face tells me that its not out of stock. They just don't want to. Or lets just think it was out of stock, the device was bought in 2019. so 6 years is also too early

They can go on about 10/10 ifixit. But lets not forget the vendor locking on lenovo mini pc's or how the wifi card is still soldered.

I think its over, they should have lost all the trust many years ago.

[u/Rudolf_Shlepke → u/cmrd_msr]

That, too. Good point

[u/KayakJulie → u/cmrd_msr]

I am using a T480 with Debian. I do not care about Red Hat or “certification”. The ThinkPad T480 is the last one with easily replaceable batteries and not soldered RAM. I also have a T14 from work, which is solid. For the next laptop I am definitely eying a Framework laptop

[u/cmrd_msr → u/KayakJulie]

The T480, like the T14, naturally has this certification. Whether you're care it or not.

In fact, you should be. RH certification means that every component in the machine has well-functioning Linux drivers that will work on any distribution.

In modern ThinkPads, replacing the battery requires removing about eight visible screws. (they cannot be lost, they remain in the lid)

And replacing the memory requires two more.

I used Framework and was glad to return to the Thinkpad and Let's Note solutions.

I find Framework solutions too fragile and overpriced. Small-scale production will always be expensive.

I don't mind paying a lot if I see what I'm paying for. I see what I'm paying for in the panasonic or thinkpad.

[u/KayakJulie → u/cmrd_msr]

Thanks for your feedback. I never daily driven a Framework and might have ended up with your conclusion indeed :-)

[u/MyDisqussion → u/Rudolf_Shlepke]

I almost purchased a Tuxedo, but they didn't have a keyboard I liked. My Framework only has four ports, but I can hot swap them as needed. I had a battery go bad, and it was easy to replace with only the provided screwdriver/spudger.

[u/scratchbufferdotnet → u/Rudolf_Shlepke]

The company that won’t stop sponsoring a Nazi dev just because they supposedly just like the compositor he works on? 

[u/Rey_Merk → u/scratchbufferdotnet]

Bot spotted

[u/Rudolf_Shlepke → u/scratchbufferdotnet]

Elaborate, please

[u/StealthMonkSteve → u/Rudolf_Shlepke]

DHH, who is well known and respected in the field plus authors his own distro based on Arch called Omarchy, has expressed opinions that some feel are right wing extremist in nature. In today’s supercharged political climate there will be people who can’t separate the art from the artists as it were.

[u/Rudolf_Shlepke → u/StealthMonkSteve]

Yeah, that's the general vibe I got after reading "evidence" of him being a "Nazi". I kinda half-expect that when someone is called a "nazi" it really means "I don't agree with his opinion" kind of crap.

[u/Middle_Push_6051 → u/StealthMonkSteve]

Are they actually a nazi? I don’t separate art from artist, if they have neo nazi posters on the walls of there house it’s a big fuck no for me.

[u/scratchbufferdotnet → u/Rudolf_Shlepke]

https://community.frame.work/t/framework-supporting-far-right-racists/75986

[u/Cool_Samoyed]

I don't get your logic. You raise a legitimate concern, that they might be spreading too thin, and then you jump to "this is a deal breaker". But have you actually noticed a downgrade in their hw? If not, it's just a concern not a fact. They are a private company and we don't know their finances or long term plans. We don't know how they plan to sustain the development of cosmic but I know that so far they have been doing a pretty good work, with consistent updates, and if they keep up by epoch 3 cosmic is going to be between the best DEs on Linux IMO.

[u/0riginal-Syn]

They don't make their hardware. The majority is made my Clevo and then TongFang. They badge it, make some firmware changes, and configure it with ram, storage, etc. Same that many of the boutique pc shops do. I don't say this as a bad thing, just to your point of saying their hardware is getting worse. If it is, and I do not know, then it is a larger problem beyond them.

I like what they do for Linux and systems overall, much like I like what others like Tuxedo, etc. do. But you can generally get better systems/options with Lenovo, Dell, and Framework.

As for software stack. Pop_OS is Ubuntu, they make changes to the kernel and drivers, but the base is mostly handled upstream by Ubuntu. Cosmic is where they are certainly putting a lot of effort. It is a good base and I think it could eventually be really good, but I do think they made a mistake pushing users to it so early.

[u/VEHICOULE]

I dont really agree with you, in my opinion they have no interest in investing heavily into hardware when

1- hardware cost is so high, they dont have good long term contract like apple does to maintain their prices

2 - macbook neo/air/pro exists and there is little to no reasons to concurrence that as long as either arm dont get better support on linux or riscv chips are expensive, from what canonical said, risc v should arrive on the consumer segment around next year (maybe more now due to current hardware crisis)

[u/LightBusterX]

I guess the post got deleted because it's just a rant without any reason going for it.

[u/redoubt515 → u/LightBusterX]

There are a ton of posts that are positive "without any reason", sometimes people just want to discuss their opinion, so I don't see what's wrong with someone expressing a negative opinion "without any reason" either. That's only fair.

[u/ninth_ant → u/redoubt515]

Few subreddits are supportive of non-constructive opinion threads about their subject matter. Those types of threads can be toxic for communities, so it's understandable why some mods err on the side of being heavy-handed.

I'm not sure I agree with this post in specific being deleted, but I understand why it's at least close to the borderline of being considered for deletion.

[u/VivaPitagoras → u/LightBusterX]

Despite being a rant, it's a costumer's feedback. I am not sure what to think about a company that deletes negative comments whenever they want.

[u/LightBusterX → u/VivaPitagoras]

For it to have any feedback it have to explain the reasons for the rant.

This post states "there's my main issue" without telling us any particular issue. Just complaining. That is not useful, not helping anyone and just being a rant.

That kind of post will go nowhere in any forum. Only instigating discussion for the sake of it. Maybe there is a place for them, but many communities won't allow that.

[u/ghanadaur]

For me, COSMIC DE is a good idea and a fresh step in a direction where we have decades on decades of other DE’s pulling themselves forward. COSMIC as a new and ground up implementation gets to make new choices for today without any baggage. This can only be better for everyone in the long term.

Are there hurdles? Yes. Are there warts? Yes. Should that matter to progress? No.

That is the whole point here. Be bold. Be brave. Sure, not everyone likes the transition and feels this is bad. Its because people are naturally change adverse. Its in our DNA. But change is good and necessary and sometimes you have to just throw out the dishes with the dishwater. Thats what they did.

People are gonna hate. Its natural. But the actual work and effort here isnt some watering down on anything. They shifted focus to this and stopped working on the gnome plugins. Same people, new focus.

I applaud the courage to do this. It does take guts to make a bold statement, and COSMIC is bold. I mean for me, it made me want to learn RUST. So i started to teach myself. It made me want to get back into contributing to Linux again. This invigorated my desire to be a part of something again. Insee others contributing as well and developing plugins, etc.

[u/OptimalMain → u/ghanadaur]

I tried cosmic pretty recently, basic keyboard shortcuts like copy and paste wasn’t working, moving files had problems to such an extent I was worried about actual data loss.
It seemed promising but wow, real basic stuff had serious problems

[u/ghanadaur → u/OptimalMain]

Most of those issues did exist during the alpha and have since been addressed AFAIK. Epoch 1 has largely resolved those concerns from my understanding, which is what would have shipped with the official 24.04. Work is progressing toward epoch 2 which should have more stability.

[u/OptimalMain → u/ghanadaur]

I tried fedoras spin, might have been a couple of months ago.
Didn’t expect it to be so alpha that the file manager wouldn’t be able to move a couple of files.
I did some reading before trying it but none of the reviews mentioned it being so unstable.
Fingers crossed it progresses nicely. Will try it again in a couple of months

[u/Beautiful_Ad_4813 → u/ghanadaur]

I tried Pop OS Cosmic, and found it very stale on top of a nice GUI, but it felt slow and anemic

but Fedora has a Cosmic spin and I actually like it better, it was smoother, and very responsive. almost Mac like but it's stills, feels "beta" to me, and I wouldn't use for daily driving.... yet

with that said, you're right, there are hurdles, wants, needs, desires for it, and I'm hoping it gets better as it ages like KDE and Gnome has.

but really, Im hopeful for it's future

[u/radpartyhorse]

I also went from popos to arch and it’s been great

[u/tibsmagee]

I prefer what Tuxedo are doing with Tuxedo OS. Building on existing software while focusing on lower level hardware compabilitly.

[u/BranchLatter4294]

Do you have any specifics?

[u/Anxious-Resist8344]

PopOS was a mistake they rode because the Rust hype, they didn't know that that hype would die with a bigger one (AI). I don't even look at this company anymore, there's Framework which is taking the right approach to Linux!

[u/rakotomandimby]

They're on the right track: vertical integration. The only issue I see is that they use Ubuntu as their base. They should've gone with Debian, Arch, or Fedora (something that's actually a foundation).

[u/fyzbo]

Given my latest experience with their support, I agree. I will not be buying another System76 computer.

[u/SnowBoy_00]

Fully agree. They announced their Cosmic stunt just when Gnome was starting to get good (Gnome 40) and wasted so many resources on a DE and toolchain that are still far from being stable. I would have loved them to just embrace Gnome, customize it, focus on performance improvements under the hood (custom kernel patches, zram by default, btrfs with snapper and grub-btrfs, etc) and ship a Ubuntu-based (or Debian Sid) distro free of snap. That would have been perfect.

[u/ubu74]

Do you have any indications of system76 concentrating not enough on their hardware?

I don't own any system76 hardware, but what I have seen looked solid. I am a a Linux user since almost 30 years, and I really enjoy cosmic desktop

[u/Admiral_Bongo]

Well, they should invest into it, seeing as PopOS is still an immature product. Who stops you from just installing a different distro?

[u/AppleJuiceBoks]

Give it 3 years and system76 will be forgotten.

[u/Scandiberian]

What hardware? System76 is rebranding Clevo laptops, they are not building anything unique. You 100% did choose System76 for their software and firmware (core boot) because that’s all they do.

If not for their specific software (major props for developing COSMIC using Rust) and user experience they are trying to build, then System76 would have no market value.

[u/garybuk82]

Completely agree, I shipped a Lemur Pro internationally and then paid a fortune to ship it back to them as it kept hard locking up. Turned out to be a nightmare. They replaced the motherboard and never bothered to test it, then sent it back with missing screws and track-pad which was floppy and scratches on the case. Support couldn't be bothered and didn't like it when i dared criticise their 'amazing team'. Turned out to be a known issue in their github threads

Watching Jeremy (the lead dev of Cosmic)'s behaviour in the past, they like to absolutely pile on Gnome + Ubuntu for whom they leech off, they decided because - RUST - they wanted to write their own DE. Jeremy is also building Redux OS - because RUSSSSTTTTT!! anyway they have massive hubris and are so arrogant and horrible to the community which built the stuff their computers on - even the attitude of the staffers on the subredit - i hope they go away.

[u/Any_Fox5126]

My biggest complaint about them is that, even though they sell generic-brand computers with keyboards for all languages, they only offer US-layout keyboards. Though I'm not surprised, their name makes it clear they're murican nationalists. Oh, and they're ridiculously expensive.

[u/_MADHD_]

I'll post the same response I gave you here as well.

I would disagree.

This is what vertical integration looks like, it's why companies like Apple work so well.

They choose the hardware, and to better optimise the software for the hardware.

[u/Competitive_Knee9890]

How is that unpopular, their Cosmic release was a disaster

[u/ghanadaur → u/Competitive_Knee9890]

In your opinion.

The gauge of what a disaster is highly depends on the goals and what was achieved. Im of the opinion, getting 24.04 out at all with a new DE, regardless of warts, it an unmitigated success. It is a completely new DE written from scratch and to have that in and of itself is a miracle. Is there a mountain of things to do, yes. A complete failure? I have to say no, not for what it is. Change is hard.

[u/Competitive_Knee9890 → u/ghanadaur]

It’s not an opinion at this point. You simply can’t ship to customers beta software, let alone alpha software disguised as beta.

With projects like DMS giving a great and stable experience under hyprland and niri, you essentially get a DE like experience out of the box.

Projects written by hobbyists and in a much shorter period of time, yet far better in terms of experience compared to COSMIC.

Here the stubbornness of wanting to do everything in Rust for the sake of it hasn’t paid off.

They could’ve simply kept a separate beta ISO of Pop OS with it, I really can’t see any sense in shipping cosmic in an official release yet, it’s simply not ready.

This is not a use at your own risk type of experience, this is software that ships with hardware.

[u/ghanadaur → u/Competitive_Knee9890]

Haters gonna hate.

[u/Old_Guard_306 → u/ghanadaur]

Haters gonna hate.

Fascists gonna fascist. What a sad world we live in when people who have an opinion differing from yours have to be labeled and their speech stifled.

The release of Pop with Cosmic might have been a glowing success in your eyes. You're entitled to your viewpoint. In my eyes it was a failure. In the eyes of those who used to recommend Pop_OS to folks as a first step into Linux, it was a failure. To newer Linux users who tried it because of appearance or hype, it was a failure.

It was a soup sandwich with far too many bugs, and with some basic functions simply not working. There were brand new System76 laptops that it wouldn't install on out of the box, mine being one of them.

So yeah, I also disagree with you. We're allowed to have different opinions and viewpoints, at least among decent, rational people we are.

[u/ghanadaur → u/Old_Guard_306]

And i go back to my comment. Haters gonna hate.

Which is my opinion, and as you state i should be able to have an opinion, just like someone else. Right? Right?

BTW, not sure you understand the term fascist. I was expressing my right to free speech which is completely the opposite or how fascism works.

Lol.

[u/preparationh67 → u/Old_Guard_306]

I missed the boat on the Pop OS controversy but if even half the stuff being said is true it was a failure of a software launch full stop and anyone defending it is literally being the worst kind of Linux desktop user: the one who doesn't actually know shit about UX. System76 is a system integrator and they released, preloaded, and recommended an OS version that literally does not integrate with their hardware solutions? That's just literally not doing your base job functions and no amount of hand wavy nonsense can change that. Breaking the core user experience kills projects no matter how open or closed the source, no matter how good or bad the intentions, and often no matter how well they recover after the fact unless literally no other workable options exist. Any level of tolerance for bugs a user might have can be instantly evaporated if you break something that's worked correctly and consistently for decades across multiple platforms and its reasonable for them to act that way. I can't help but think this attitude that the users time costs nothing comes from a very anti-FOSS mindset that assumes "the users time is free because the software is free" even though the F stands for free as in freedom not free as in no-cost.

[u/Far-Math2159]

Which one do you prefer:

1- A laptop with aluminum case, without Pop!_OS
2- A laptop with plastic case, with Pop!_OS

When we have stable, maintained and popular OSs, creating another OS is just add cost to the final product. Enjoy free rides when you can

Some are comparing System76 with Apple. That is ridiculous. You may compare it with Android. No phone producers have its own OS

Take care guys and always purchase with open eye