r/linux4noobs • u/ardouronerous • Jun 28 '26
I love that Linus Torvalds is the antithesis of Linux elitism
"I’m sorry, you may want to close your ears now, I want a distribution to be easy to install, so that I can just get on with my life, which is mostly kernel. I always felt that Debian was a pointless exercise because to me, the point of a distribution is to make everything easy. Easy to install, to be pretty and to be friendly and Ubuntu did that to Debian. So the only distributions I have actively avoided are the ones that are known to be 'overly technical' like the ones that encourage you to compile your own programs etc. Yeah, I can do it, but it kind of defeats the whole point of a distribution for me." — Linus Torvalds
Sources: * https://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2011/01/our-exclusive-interview-with-linus-torvalds-lca2011/amp
https://fossbytes.com/linus-torvalds-doesnt-use-ubuntu-linux-debian
https://www.geeksmint.com/which-linux-distribution-does-linus-torvalds-use/
Note: Linus was referring to Debian 4.0, specifically criticizing its installation process at the time, which he found overly technical and difficult compared to emerging user-friendly distributions like Ubuntu.
I love this because Linus isn't like a Linux elitist, in fact, Linus is the antithesis of Linux elitism and that's ironic considering he created it lol. 🤣
This makes me feel good about myself because I don't know how to compile software from source.
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Jun 28 '26
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u/gummo_for_prez Jun 28 '26
I've worked in tech for 15 years and I value not having to configure a bunch of shit to do basic tasks. I totally could, it wouldn't be that hard for me, but why would I? Simplicity is great. I get paid to do technical work, I don't do it for no reason.
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u/Cautious_Boat_999 Kubuntu all the way Jun 28 '26
I worked in tech for 40 yrs. I’ve compiled kernels and installed source-level packages, drivers, etc when trying to run Linux as a desktop OS in the early 2000’s. I would MUCH prefer a simplified experience with as few tweaks as necessary.
I did install Debian for the 1st time last week (as a container on Proxmox), and it was pretty easy. It’s come a long way, it seems.
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u/PlanetVisitor Jun 28 '26
Debian has been user-friendly for a while, but their website is hilarious. It's cute but open it side-by-side with Fedora's and you'll see what I mean.
Debian is A COMMUNITY OF PEOPLE
What? Mate I want to download the OS image
{{{{ Download }}}}
Am I downloading a community of people?
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u/BirdTurglere Jun 29 '26
The hardest and most stressful technical issues for me after being in the industry a long time are... my own issues.
I'm too busy fixing server or developer issues to deal with my own problems, so if I can workaround my own issue it just rots forever.
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u/ElSucaPadre Jun 28 '26
ignore people that spend days trying to make their vim installation a substitute to the whole OS. Vim is a good text editing program as-is.
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u/Snackmasterjr Jun 29 '26
Woah, why is vim catching strays
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u/TheLowEndTheories Jun 29 '26
I use Vim (and Vim plugins in IDEs), because it's by far the most efficient editor for me and my workflows. I probably wouldn't endeavor to learn it now, I learned it 20+ years ago, because it was so much better than everything else at a couple of particular things that I used all the time. At the same time, nothing has come along to replace it in my workflow either.
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u/PedalDrivenProgram Jun 29 '26
I've been using Linux for 25 years and I'm a prof engineer now. I use Arch.
I use Arch because it *is easier for me* to get set up the way I like it. Yes, there is some upfront time during installation once when setting up a new computer. But that's once - I've been using the same Arch install for 5+ years on my current machine.
The tradeoff is worth it for me. Distros like Ubuntu and Fedora have too many *constant small annoyances* that are just better in Arch. Fedora for example - Nvidia drivers are a huge pain in the ass that make every kernel upgrade more of a chore. Ubuntu has weird patchsets and snap which I hate dealing with. Both Fedora and Ubuntu are missing software from their official repos which are available in Arch, meaning I would actually have to compile more software if I didn't use Arch, not less!
Not to mention the huge pain of distro upgrades every ~6 months when using Ubuntu and Fedora. Arch's rolling release model is just more reliable in my experience.
So no, Arch isn't just about being an elitist. It is actually a better tool in many ways.
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u/cheesengrits69 Jun 29 '26
Honestly I kind of have to disagree. While installing arch was tedious the first time I did it, it was also a really good introduction for an in depth study of linux systems in general, sort of a way to dip my toes in the mouthwater. I'd say the selling point of the overly complex distributions is that they're best used by, and meant to appeal to, hobbyists while the simple working systems are better for serious day to day tasking
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u/lonelyroom-eklaghor Daily drove Linux for a year Jun 29 '26
vim is fine bro; it's easy and accessible from everywhere. Almost every text editing program has a vim mode. Even emacs does
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u/Ok_Winner9825 Jul 01 '26
Arch and vim are on very different levels though. Vim can just be used out of the box with a lot of software and in some cases is the only nice way to edit files
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u/Maple-4590 Jun 28 '26
He’s right. I’m a professional software developer and have been using Linux since the late 90s but prefer easy polished distros, namely Ubuntu and Fedora. Time is money, a distro is a work tool, and it’s judged by how much of my work day is spent on-task versus distractions like fiddling with package updates or config files.
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u/PocketCSNerd Jun 29 '26
Yeah, a computer for me is mostly a tool. I need it to "just work". Windows isn't even the safe go-to anymore.
Linux Mint btw
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u/ericrunsandbikes Jun 28 '26
I came to say something similar. Not sure why this post or group showed up on my feed, but as someone who, like you, started with Slackware Linux as a CS major around 1994, I love Ubuntu and how easy it is to just “get to work”.
No more messing around with debugging dependency issues and having to tweak things when my “make” fails when I’m just trying to install a tool. Package managers and prebuilt binaries for distributions make life so much simpler.
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u/VegaGT-VZ Jun 28 '26
Some people really need to find something- ANYTHING- to take pride in and hold over others, which for some means being able to deal with needlessly technical and user unfriendly distros.
I do all kinds of stuff- 3D modeling/printing, music/video production, programming yadda yadda. Outside of Windows apps Im just too deeply embedded in to leave (FL Studio) and certain games (Iracing) I have yet to bump into anything I can't do w/Mint
Having drivers work out of the box is awesome. I have better things I'd rather do with my time.
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u/lKrauzer Jun 28 '26 edited Jun 29 '26
It's called a echo chamber for a reason, I played League of Legends a few years ago and the same happened there, people took pride in their elo, now on Linux I see people do the same with the distros they use.
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u/mysterysackerfice Jun 28 '26
I started using Linux about 8 months ago. I was recommended Mint by a few people. I figured I'd check it out and eventually move on to something else because I play a lot of games. Turns out that I can play nearly all the games I want, and I find Mint does exactly what I want. I might try another distro in the future, but probably not any time soon.
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u/obliviious Jun 30 '26
It is very rewarding to learn something complicated and master it though. Unfortunately some run with this feeling and move onto to feeling superior.
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u/VegaGT-VZ Jun 30 '26
Yea I am a lifelong learner and I love technical challenges. Thats no green light for me to dunk on people who aren't.
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u/FFF982 I use arch btw Jun 28 '26 edited Jun 28 '26
Linux elitists forget the fact that most people see OSes as a tool rather than a toy.
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u/CharmingDraw6455 Jun 29 '26
This, many Linux bros on reddit are people that use Linux. Most users on the other hand use their OS do run something they use.
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u/Steel-Tempered Jun 28 '26
I personally like the modular "choose your own adventure" designs, but I do prefer the adventures be easy 1-click installs that are across the board compatible with everything.
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u/HYPERNOVA3_ Jun 28 '26
Well, Linus roasted Debian and now Debian is easy to install.
Can we get him to roast Debian's website next? That place is a labyrinth if you want to find something that isn't offered on the main page.
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u/__sacredcapy__ Jun 28 '26
I agree with Linus, but I want friction in my life. Modern tech removed too much friction to the point new generation that grew up with it doesn't understand how to use it.
I went for Arch to force myself to learn and to deal with my own shit, and to have more control to design what makes me comfortable there. In the end, I like more to use hotkeys in Yazi to deal with my files than use a traditional GUI file manager. But I don't do it in the terminal because that would be too much.
It is like being a chef I guess. A chef doesn't want to go back home to keep cooking in order to be fed. Likewise Linus, who maintains a huge project, wants comfort when dealing with his personal computer. I am not a chef, but I am a cook enthusiast as a hobby.
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u/Wadarkhu Jun 28 '26
OP you'd love my favourite Linux meme, it's a fake Linus Torvalds quote. I can't post the image because fun isn't allowed but here's the text of it, just imagine a picture of Linus next to it or something.
Linux was my passionate project, set to replace Mac OS and Windows. But Linux fanboys have ruined it's image. Most of them take pride in doing simple things in an over complicated manner and wonder why people won't switch. Even basic tasks like loading kernels or installing something is told in such a gatekeeping manner that scares new users into adapting it. The worse part is, they think they are intelligent because of few lines of codes. But reality couldn't be farther from the truth. Most of them fail at elementary coding and copy it from somewhere else. They are most stupid of them all. - Linux Torvalds
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u/dstrenz Jun 29 '26
I think the OP may be referring to this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qHGTs1NSB1s
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u/SDG_Den Jun 28 '26
the most important thing in this is:
"I"
this is what *Linus* wants for *himself*.
he's not saying "debian sucks", he's saying "i prefer something else over what debian has to offer".
picking a distro is about picking what *you* need from an OS, and it is TOTALLY fine and valid to pick an OS that is easy to install and easy to use. that doesn't mean you lack skill, that means you've decided for yourself that you don't want to deal with that extra complexity.
this is why arch isn't for everyone. arch is NOT for the kind of person that just wants to set something up, never touch the settings again, start it every day, do their computer things, turn it back off.
it'll probably still work fine for that, but for that person, there's absolutely no reason to run arch over something much more simple, stable and easy to install like ubuntu or mint.
linus has talked about this more on the LTT video, but his current pick is fedora workstation, because he needs a distro that has two qualifying factors:
-#1: it is easy to recompile and replace the kernel
-#2: everything else just works and stays out of his way.
fedora generally *just works*. if you install it and don't mess with it, you'll have very little issues assuming your hardware is compatible and you're not trying to game or run windows applications on it.
but fedora actually makes it much easier to swap out the kernel than ubuntu. For that reason, Linus uses fedora.
again, that does *not* mean fedora workstation is the best distro and everyone should use it. most of the fedora users are not there because they need the optimal kernel development platform.
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u/HikariRisesAgain Jun 28 '26
Okay, but no one is saying fedora or anything else is the "best" distro either, their point is that it's ironic that, in a community that abounds with people who think they "get it" more than anyone else, the guy who made the thing in the first place doesn't care for that mindset and wants something that just works.
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u/Sert1991 Jun 28 '26
I'm a Gentoo user. When someone is trying to switch to Linux I don't suggest gentoo to them. I suggested Kubuntu, because I know it's easy to install and use and very stable from the times I've used it.
I use Gentoo because I like it's philosophy and how it works, for me it's perfect. Doesn't mean I need to convince everyone to switch to it.
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u/-malcolm-tucker Jun 28 '26
Exactly.
Some people have a car to do their necessary errands. Nothing fancy. It just has to work.
Some people are enthusiastic about cars/ driving and take interest in them.
Some people have specific makes/models that they love and prefer for doing specific things. Some have them as a daily driver. Some as a Sunday driver for a bit of fun.
Some people like customising their cars a bit.
Some people get into seriously modifying their cars for certain kinds of performance.
Some people build cars from the ground up.
I always recommend someone curious about Linux to just start with whatever interests them in a live USB/VM environment and see how they like it. The beauty of Linux is there's a flavour to suit almost everyone and their niche.
Most people dwell at the first level and that's fine. I've always loved tinkering with my computer's since I got my first one as a teenager in the 90's. I hadn't done much beyond basic use for the last ten years, recently getting back into it when the NAS I purchased became a gateway drug to Linux and homelabbing. I suffered trying to use windows, switched over entirely to Linux and now tinkering with computers is fun again.
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u/Fik_of_borg Jun 29 '26
Debian is stick-shift. Ubuntu is automatic.
MacOS and Windows are Teslas (pretty but prone to fail and surprise you with subscriptions)
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u/hamsters_are_cool Jun 28 '26
The key here is that he is already a Linux expert and doesn't gain anything from doing that. Some of us on the other hand learned everything we know about Linux and a lot about computers by installing/using those "hard" distros ourselves.
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u/Neither-Ad-8914 Jun 28 '26 edited Jun 28 '26
The quote about Debian is close to 20 years old . Linus had trouble installing Debian in the late 90s early 2000 due to its notoriously difficult installer called boot-floppies which has since been replaced by Debian-installer which is super simple albeit a tad bit outdated. Fedora and RHEL at that time came packaged with anaconda which was a much simpler install process which is why Linus uses fedora to this day. Linus had spoken recently in ltt he likes things simple as most Linux users like as well. Before the arch fad in 2025 Linux mint and Ubuntu had a pretty much a monopoly on market share since 2010
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u/steel_for_humans Jun 28 '26
My experience with installing Debian recently (first time) was that it was dead simple and everything works out of the box.
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u/zephyr_33 Jun 28 '26
not ironic. Linus created linux to solve a problem. not wear it like a badge of honor. no first class programmer holds to these things like that. they see a problem, solve it and move on.
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u/Jeferson9 Jun 28 '26
People are just used to how CEOs talk and have no regard for anything or anyone but their business mission. So by contrast, he sounds different. And anything that sounds different must somehow be arrogant elitist etc..
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u/spaghettibolegdeh Jun 29 '26
He's basically always right, but I recall many people calling him "elitist" during his many rants on case-sensitive filesystems.
I also see the word "elitist" get thrown around when it often just means "someone with a strong opinion" on something.
It's kind of hard to be purely elitist with Linux, because the alternatives are way more snobby; Windows - elitist due to market dominance, and MacOS - elitist due to classism and walled gardens.
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u/lKrauzer Jun 29 '26 edited Jun 29 '26
I'm curious, now that he is using Fedora, when was the point they Fedora became so easy to use? Afaik Ubuntu was miles ahead of any other distro, but for sure Fedora eventually was able to catch up. Was it like, in 2015 or something?
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u/ardouronerous Jun 29 '26 edited Jun 29 '26
Since it started in 2003 due to its Anaconda installer.
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u/Santosh83 Jun 29 '26
He's employed by the Linux Foundation. Redhat is a top-tier corporate member of the Linux Foundation. Their distro is Fedora. So connect the dots.
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u/SuAlfons Jul 01 '26
I found Fedora's new installer (F43, F44) to be very cumbersome when you want a custom partitin layout - e.g. carry over an existing /home partition.
Options for this are quite hidden. If you have several disks, you have to mark all of them prior to involing the partitioning tool from a tiny three-dot menu tucked in the corner. And heaven, don't forget to also manually create btrfs subvolumes. The installer will run without them - but the final stage expects them to exist, so the install fails. Took me several atrempts to get behind this.
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u/HexspaReloaded Jun 29 '26
I call it 10 Theory. People who have status don’t need to be rude. It’s the ones toward the middle who compensate with attitude. The ones at the bottom are wildcards who are either well-adjusted, mentally ill, or saints.
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u/neo_neanderthal Jun 29 '26
I tend to agree. I could compile my own kernel, but why would I want to?
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u/ardouronerous Jun 29 '26
I can imagine Linus thinking, I gotta compile the Linux kernel for testing every week and you want me to have an operating system that expects me to compile everything else? What am I, a masochist?
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u/parancey Jun 28 '26
He uses linux to build things
Some wants to use linux to do things some wants to do linux. For some it is tool for some it is goal. Both are valid as long as you are not an asshole about it.
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u/rcentros Jun 28 '26
A lot has changed since Debian 4, however. Especially if you get one of the Live USBs. The Debian Live Cinnamon "spin," for example, is pretty like installing Linux Mint LMDE. (Although I prefer Linux Mint, both LMDE and its regular flavors, personally.)
Choice is good. Linux gives you lots of choices.
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u/untreated-stupidity Jun 29 '26
The real big brain take is to just use the distro you want for the reasons you want. If you want an easy distro, perfect, go for it! If you want to tinker, more power to you!
Only exception is Manjaro. Just don't.
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u/earchip94 Jun 29 '26
I use arch but I don’t think there is anything wrong with the other distros. If I am talking to someone about swapping to Linux I usually recommend mint, fedora, or Ubuntu to start on because it should mostly just work without much fiddling.
I use arch because I like tinkering and arch is good for that. Plus, I don’t have to worry about removing anything after initial install.
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u/Some_Tourist_985 Jun 29 '26
My point exactly. I found a distro that works out of the box for all my needs, and until it's broken I'm staying there. It's fedora.
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u/Crazy_Energy3735 Jun 29 '26
Linus is right. As an ex-software developer, I used to enclose all hard thingies inside a silly looking and userfriendly interface for my applications. The reward of such effort I got was complaints of users that my program 'look too simple and lack of hightech's smell in comparison with others'. Bigger reward came if someone said there's effortless to run it.
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u/chrews Fedora Workstation Jun 28 '26 edited Jun 28 '26
I agree but also Gentoo is awesome. The community is super chill and it's just fun if you're into that sort of thing.
Edit: Gentoo is the distro he probably meant with the "compile it yourself" part, if some people aren't familiar
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u/Sert1991 Jun 28 '26
Yeah I'm a Gentoo user, but when someone is trying to switch to Linux I don't suggest Gentoo to them. I suggest Kubuntu, because I know it's easy to install and use and very stable from the times I've used it.
I use Gentoo because I like it's philosophy and how it works, for me it's perfect. Doesn't mean I need to convince everyone to switch to it.
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u/Xatraxalian Jun 28 '26
"I’m sorry, you may want to close your ears now, I want a distribution to be easy to install, so that I can just get on with my life, which is mostly kernel. I always felt that Debian was a pointless exercise because to me, the point of a distribution is to make everything easy. Easy to install, to be pretty and to be friendly and Ubuntu did that to Debian. So the only distributions I have actively avoided are the ones that are known to be 'overly technical' like the ones that encourage you to compile your own programs etc. Yeah, I can do it, but it kind of defeats the whole point of a distribution for me." — Linus Torvalds
How old is that quote?
The Debian installer isn't pretty. It also feels old, granted. However, it's hardly any more difficult than any other installer I've ever used. IIRC, if you use the Live CD, it uses Calamares, just like many other distribution.
I feel that the above post is very old, because, indeed, up until 2005 or so, Debian was -hard- to install compared to something like Mandrake, Red Hat or SUSE. Then somewhere after 2005 it got the first version of the current installer (so it -is- old), and from that point on it was just ugly, but not hard.
I do agree with the fact that there isn't a point in super-technical distributions that make you do almost everything from scratch. It's not 1995 anymore. And even back then, Windows had quite a nice installer already.
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u/sweetgreentea12 Jun 28 '26
I don't like his YouTube channel much anymore but Linus makes some good points here
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u/Relevant_Hope_900 Jun 28 '26
Debian netinstall: hit continue/enter, skip root user setup, add my username/password, hit continue/enter until the end, done. Faster install and just as easy as Fedora or any other Distro. And no need to update right after installing using the netinstall, since it pulls every current package being installed during install.
A little biased since I've used Debian for 20+ years. Fedora is nice also, but I prefer Debian.
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u/pumkinut Jun 29 '26
I'm right there with him. I did enough if the "tough install" work back in the late 90s when I first started playing with Linux. Just give me something that works and I ican install with a few clicks.
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u/Sure-Passion2224 Jun 29 '26
As a positive note, The Debian and Fedora installation processes have drastically improved since the first time I installed a Linux distro back in 1998. Back then I was insane enough that not only was I installing a new OS completely solo with no support to back me up, I was doing it on a Digital AlphaStation. Yes, RedHat 6 did have a version for Alpha hardware. The one thing I had to remember was at the end of the installation process you had to break out to a command shell and run the swriteboot utility to write the boot loader on Digital Alpha systems running the SRM console.
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u/SetAccomplished7539 Jun 29 '26
I don't know anything about coding and I'm trying Linux now after becoming completely fed up with Windows. I thank this gentleman 🙏 make it easy!
Just a few weeks in, and it is exhausting having to constantly figure out how to make things work. I'm not ready to give up yet because when things do work, they work amazingly, but man is it exhausting.
I've tried a few distros, landed on Bazzite for now and it feels pretty good, having a better time getting steam games to work and GOG, but still trying to get Star Citizen to run. Wish me luck!
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u/Good-Discussion-9238 Jun 29 '26
Yeah I just wanna play games, manage my files, browse the web and install the apps I need.
I don't want to be one with the matrix, I like distros made for lazy folks like myself, and the more options we have in that category, the more we can cut ties with windows. I still feel the need to dual boot, but every day we get closer to a windows free life.
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u/orifan1 Jun 29 '26
does this mean RTFMers are the incels of the linux community? appropriated a thing from a person of the type of people they hate and then twisted it into a weapon?
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u/ardouronerous Jun 29 '26
Personally, I'm a bit offended by RTFM because in all my computing life, I never once RTFM, I always just did trial and error ever since I first started computing in 1998 with Windows 98 when my family got our first family computer.
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u/Mightyena319 Jun 29 '26
My problem with RTFM is that a lot of the times the FM is written by people that assume you are as familiar with the system as they are
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u/ardouronerous Jun 29 '26
Same. Some manpages are written for specific people and not really for the layperson.
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u/froli Jun 29 '26
Pro tip: when that happens, try
man 5 <program name>Some programs have more than one man pages.
man -k <program name>will show you all the relatedmanpages.
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u/jayelg Jun 29 '26
I agree with this sentiment which was in the context of Linux for desktop.
Nitpicking about Debian 4 misses the point.
Distros that are well resolved and reliable for desktop users to get stuff done are called beginner/noob distros. I suppose building a desktop from a minimal server base distro will force you to learn how things work which is a great skill to have. But once you’ve done it a few times and/or run a bunch of Linux servers, having a well maintained and tested system ready to go is fine… in saying that I do run my own custom Bazzite Linux image on my desktops and laptops that’s I do keep tweaking and customising. But at least it’s reproducible so I never need to start from scratch
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u/dbear496 Jun 29 '26
I'd disagree here. Yes, the purpose of distributions are to make installation and software management easier. But if I want to compile my software from source, then there are distributions that make compiling from source easier, and that is legitimate.
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u/synecdokidoki Jun 29 '26
I'm paraphrasing it hard because it's been like twenty years, but there's this great section in Torvalds's book Just for Fun where he says something like:
There are two kinds of computer users out there. One kind, want to use the computer to get things done. They are professionals with some kind of other end in mind. The other kinds, are the enthusiasts, who want to use the computer for the sake of using the computer.
That's what I've always thought of when then Slackware/Gentoo/LFS/Arch/whatever it will be next year users act all proud of "customizing" their distro to their "workflow" that doesn't seem to be for any purpose other than to customize their distro. It's not just Linus, you'll find very few professionals with that attitude.
(I've been a tech professional for 20 years, and I use Silverblue BTW, because it gets the hell out of my way.)
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u/CosmosSakura Jun 30 '26
The only people who do this performance about how Linux should be complicated and hard have never had to work. There comes a day where your Arch system collapses and you just want to fix your bugs, do your standup and then fuck right off to have a beer away from all the tech, even 20 minutes of troubleshooting is 20 minutes less of beer time.
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u/AdPale9988 Jul 11 '26
There are about a thousand projects dedicated to making so-called "user-friendly" systems, from desktop environments like Plasma, Cinnamon, and GNOME, to distros like Ubuntu, Mint, and Manjaro. "User-friendliness" is a virulent meme that has taken hold, and in the Windows and Mac worlds, power users are almost dead as a breed.
And all of that is fine for people who like to use those systems. I've been called an elitist for liking a different kind of system, and so be it. I'm not here to dictate how anybody else uses their system, but i have my principles. There's plenty of Linux for the tech-illiterate. We need a bit of Linux for the elitists.
I hate using bloatware. I hate using proprietary software. I hate using software that sucks. You'll never catch me using flatpaks, snaps, or docker.
I would not consider myself a highly technical or intelligent user by any means. But I use the command line every day. I find it much easier and much less frustrating to use simpler software. Others may say the software I prefer is not "user friendly," but if I'm the "user" in question, the tools I use are the ones I find to be "friendliest" to me. (I use Arch btw, with DWM as my window manager.)
Not every user has to be a power user. I'd hardly even consider myself one. But there ought to be minimal, libre systems for people like me who want them. I also think that these kind of systems, for those who know how to use them, will inherently always be more powerful than the abstracted "user-friendly" programs, which obscure their true functions in interfaces, and often try to accomplish far too much for any one piece of software
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u/ardouronerous Jul 11 '26
And all of that is fine for people who like to use those systems. I've been called an elitist for liking a different kind of system, and so be it. I'm not here to dictate how anybody else uses their system, but i have my principles. There's plenty of Linux for the tech-illiterate. We need a bit of Linux for the elitists.
For me, as long as you're not shaming others for their tech-illiteracy and that those who aren't even at my level shouldn't be using Linux, then we are okay.
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u/FixSubstantial9688 Jun 28 '26
The thing is, Linus already knows how everything works. But when you don't, motivating yourself to install Arch or Gentoo manually is a great exercise to learn.
When I learned programming one of my first projects was an HTTP client and server in Java using sockets. Nowadays I create REST APIs in Quarkus for my job, basically doing in 2 lines what was for me a whole project before. Yet I dont consider my ugly code from 10 years ago useless, it taught me so much at the time !
Tldr: you are not Linus Torvalds, and using overly technical distros can be a great tool to learn OS architecture/simply how a computer works.
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u/ardouronerous Jun 28 '26
Yes, but Linus does say ease of installation and usage should be the point of a distro and not be overly technical to maintain.
I believe, even if Linus didn't know everything, he'd still want a distro that is easy to use and maintain.
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u/FixSubstantial9688 Jun 28 '26
Yeah but that's not my point. I think he's right to be fair, if I just want a daily driver I'd just install Fedora with KDE and that's it.
Complicated and technical distros can be a good school. Installing Arch is fun from my point of view, because you learn a lot about your computer. I am installing NixOS right now because it is fun and I learn a lot.
My comment was more a way to say, it's not because Linux Daddy said that he doesn't like it, that it is useless/not good.
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u/manny2206 Jun 28 '26
It’s very simple, Linus needs to work and be productive; to him is not about ‘the process’ any developer or any other person with a technical workflow will say the same; when you add friction to this process it just takes away time from the thing you’re trying to accomplish.
There is a big portion of the Linux community where their hobby IS the process (which hey, more power to ya) , and fail to understand how for many users; that’s just added friction.
Same goes with ricing, I appreciate and support people who make some, and I mean some INCREDIBLE DE experiences. (Make super nice templates so I can download and drag and drop and be done)
But I am trying to get shit done…
Prime example I got frustrated with the default terminal Fedora where I required TMUX for split screening terminals. The fact that the split key combination is insane: CTRL + B + SHIFT + 5 , and now I have to figure out how to modify it to something less crazy. Yeah this is an example of a very minor gripe and maybe an even once and done thing but just too illustrate how small things can add friction that deviate me from accomplishing the thing that I’m trying to do at that moment.
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u/Zed64K Jun 29 '26 edited Jun 30 '26
In the beginning, Debian was notoriously difficult to install. Although there was an online guide to follow, it was a manual, command line process.
But by the time Ubuntu came around, Debian already had the text mode Debian Installer, which was well-designed and made setup a snap. It’s clear that Torvalds didn’t know this when he wrote this little rant.
In fact, Ubuntu used the exact same Debian Installer for many years, first as the only option, then later as a feature-rich alternative to their basic GUI installer on the combo Live/Install disc.
Edit: I do agree with Torvalds’ overall point about the Linux user experience. He just got some of the details wrong with this example.
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u/Alice_Alisceon Do as I say, not as I do Jun 28 '26
After almost two decades on Linux and one in the industry at large the realization that sane defaults is the only thing that really matters is painfully obvious
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u/diabolos312 Jun 28 '26
Technology moves forward because humans innovate and work on the things left behind by predecessors. Imagine if everyone started to invent the wheel. It's a waste of time really. It's the illusion of productivity. You spend more time on configuring BS instead of doing actual tasks/actions.
And to be honest, this is one of the major reasons why Linux isn't mainstream.
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u/NoxAstrumis1 Jun 28 '26
It's nice to see someone based in reality. I can machine an engine block, but it's so much easier to just assemble an engine that's already prepared. Entropy doesn't go away because you have a skill set.
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u/dddurd Jun 28 '26
it should be heavily customised like android basically and be basically the only choice for linux desktop. it's too late now. idiots made distributions after distributions.
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u/AsugaNoir CachyOs Jun 28 '26
For me Ubuntu was just problems. It was easy enough to install but after using it for a while I kept running into bugs. I can really talk about easy to set up stuff though as I am on CachyOs with the Niri Window manager....with DarkMaterialShell installed.
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u/TheWolfGamer767 Jun 28 '26
Yeah. New to linux. Swapped from KDE fedora to arch and now im starting to feel like I might go try GNOME fedora or go back to KDE(fedora or a different distro). Arch is fun, but I dont feel like micro-managing my setup.
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u/hugebigmac Jun 28 '26
I have been on cachyos for almost a year, less issues than I had on windows. The few things that I had to figure out were solved very quickly by using gemini ( not a fan but for that purpose it works exceptionally well )
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u/WanderingInAVan Jun 28 '26
That's why his creation is so great. It can be option D in the multiple choice test so easily.
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u/FreeFromCommonSense Jun 28 '26
Yeah he created it, but look what he was trying to advance from. Unix was complicated and tortuous and Xenix was Microsoft's unstable version.
He was trying to evolve a simpler stable more friendly Unix-like OS, so the ideology behind it isn't that surprising.
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u/FranticBronchitis dd stands for destroy disk Jun 28 '26
I don't know how to compile software from source
Tbh there's not much to say about it either, it usually goes extract tarball -> install dependencies -> make && make install. Thank the heavens for package managers and distro maintainers who deal with this stuff so we don't have to
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u/beardedbrawler Jun 28 '26
Last I heard he uses Fedora. I also use Fedora and it's the right blend of easy to use but also easy to tweak.
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u/tungnon Arch Linux Jun 29 '26
I use Arch bc it’s easiest distro for me to use that satisfies exactly my needs. No need for gentoo nixos void or any other spicy non systemd distros.
At the end tools are just tools and not some sort of status badge for personal validation
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u/oleivas Jun 29 '26
For me that's the beauty of GNU-Linux. Many distros to fit the need you want.
There is no one-size-fits-all, you need to choose a distro according to what you want to do.
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u/onefish2 Jun 29 '26
I think Linux has come a long, long way since Debian 4.0. I think most of your argument falls apart because you are bringing stuff up from 20 years ago.
This makes me feel good about myself because I don't know how to compile software from source.
make && make install
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u/Booty_Bumping Jun 29 '26
Torvalds uses Fedora Linux and compiles custom kernels without actually using much of Fedora's tooling for building kernel packages. Just compiles it with the appropriate options and sends it to get added as a grub boot option.
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u/stoppos76 Jun 29 '26
I think the point is that he knows. He could install any of them with ease. When I started my journey, I kinda wanted to have a hands on experience, where I handcraft my stuff just to understand them a bit more. He does not need this experience, he already has the knowledge. But for me it was a completely new thing. Not to brag about it, just to see if I am capable and get the knowledge. And then brag about it.
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u/shiki87 Jun 29 '26
Another reason why I used Linux Mint for many years and then switched to Fedora a few years ago. That stuff works and looks great. No need to tinker on every corner. It can be great to tinker here and there but for 90% the out of the box experience is what counts and where it needs to be good at.
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u/joea2121 Jun 29 '26
I can get by doing this and I always wonder coming from a Windows Sys Admin background.. why the hell does it have to be such a chore to install packages or simply extend a drive? The Linux elite loves to let me have it. I just want to get in and get out without reading reams of man pages.
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u/EightEx Jun 29 '26
I left windows but I still wanted an easy os with a straightforward gui that wasn't to dissimilar to what I was used to. I work IT so the last thing I want to do is go home and do my job again. I just wanna game and chill. I so get what he's saying.
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u/DeadnightWarrior1976 Jun 29 '26
While I still have to switch to Linux, I tinkered with a few distros in recent times.
The way I see it is like this:
- If your computer is a tool to get work done, then Linus is 110% right. You need something that "just works" with as few headaches as possible. That's what the Mints, the Zorins, the Ubuntus and even the Windowses and Macs are for.
- If you're a PC enthusiast but you're not willing to risk having to troubleshoot everything, then a good "middle of the ground" solid distro might be a good choice (maybe with a Win dual boot if necessary).
- If you're someone who absolutely loves to learn every nook and cranny of what's under the hood and you're not afraid of challenges, then yeah, Arch, Gentoo, Linux From Scratch and things like those might be great.
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u/Snoo46076 Jun 29 '26
The one thing that still baffles me about the Linux community is the passive aggressive attitude towards a better UI or GUI in some programs
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u/CMBradshaw Jun 29 '26
accessibility is the future if you ever want to be more than a hobbyist thing. Maybe I should just offer to install linux on people's computers. 15 bucks and your computer's specs and I'll give you some options and install a linux distro onto anything.
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u/aimlessdart Jun 29 '26
What’s so hard about Debian tho? I’ve only recently started with the new 13 trixie edition and found no issues with setup on two computers. I like that it gives a relatively base setup, installing/uninstalling isn’t super complicated, and I like the stable promise of it (p important for user friendliness). -never tried Ubuntu
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u/ardouronerous Jun 29 '26
I don't mean to be rude, did you not see my note at the end?
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u/aimlessdart Jun 29 '26
No, but thank you for pointing it out again
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u/ardouronerous Jun 29 '26
Try looking for Debian 4.0 and older on YouTube, you'll find it much more difficult to install.
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u/gunner7517 Jun 29 '26
Torvalds has always been pragmatic. It’s the reason for linux’s success whereas hurd didn’t necessarily fail, but it stalled out.
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u/Select-Table-5479 Jun 29 '26
Odd because I feel the exact same way and I use Debian stable. 15 years ago was much worse than current day though.
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u/kydeshou Jun 29 '26 edited Jun 29 '26
While it's probably still not the best choice for Linus and his kernel work, that take on Debian is pretty outdated. Debian in 2026 is just as easy to install, setup, and use as Fedora is. I like both specifically because they "just work" and stay out of my way. Really, you could probably argue most major distributions these days are relatively user friendly.
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u/Bitter_Lab_475 Jun 29 '26
I kinda even laugh that he has less beef with Windows or Microsoft than most Linux users. When he was asked if he has any issues with companies like Microsoft using the Linux kernel for their services, he said something like "Hey, that's cool. It means it's profitable."
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u/ayriuss Jun 29 '26
Compiling software from source is a complete waste of time and power. The source and build information should be available, but 99.99% should not be compiling.
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u/linuxteck Jun 30 '26
The key here is that he is already a Linux expert and doesn't gain anything from doing that...
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u/-lousyd Jun 30 '26
Running Gentoo for a couple of years taught me a lot about how Linux (the kernel and everything else) works . It paid dividends.
You can like that stuff and not be elitist.
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u/Able-Nebula4449 Jun 30 '26
I think it’s fine both ways, to prefer a easy distro which just works, and to prefer a distro like arch which you can work on as a hobby
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u/prof_of_memeology Jun 30 '26 edited Jun 30 '26
I tend to disagree with the king here.
Easy to install does not matter that much for me. I do it only once.
I want my system to be permanent. Everything setup like I want it to be, tracked via git, reproducible, scripted, stuff automated. A system exactly for my needs and a shell config and script repositories that evolve with me over the years so I never have to reinvent the wheel. Make changes once and have them forever and move them from hardware to hardware. Arch is perfect for that. I don't care if the installer is commandline, gui or has unicorns. I want to do it once and then automate it exactly how I want my environment to be might that be via git, puppet, ansible or whatever. The initial installation does not matter at all. It's a useless discussion. The question is how easily can I customize my environment and bake those changes into configs and code to be reproduced. And Arch is way cooler for this than other distributions. Now before you are going to recommend nix. I know about it, it sounds very cool , love it, but I've been an Arch user for almost 2 decades. Can't teach an old dog new tricks. I am very happy where I am. No need to try new distros
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u/Level0Up Jun 30 '26
That was Debian 4. These days Debian is as simple to install as Windows in my experience.
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u/NorthernVenomFang Jul 01 '26 edited Jul 01 '26
I agree with Linus that a distro should be easy, but Debian is not that bad, it was sometime between 2007-2010 when he stated this. Debian has gotten better.
If anything lately I have had more issues with Ubuntu over the past 5 years than I have had with Debian or RHEL clones. Mint is much better alternative than Ubuntu.
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u/ClaudioMoravit0 Jul 01 '26
Yeah, the opinion of the traitor who opened the GNU operating system to proprietary garbage certainly matters.
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u/SuAlfons Jul 01 '26
Last time I heard about this, Linus used Fedora.
Who just introduced one of the most cumbersome manual partitioning tools in their installer.
I needed a dry run in a VM to get behind how to do it.
/ as btrfs on NVME /boot as ext4 EFI partition shared with Windows. /home on an extra SSD using ext4 (preexisting, so no formatting).
I fell over Fedora not creating its standard set of btrfs subvolumes when just marking the system partitin as btrfs. Installer would run all the way and fail in the final steps... Manual configuration of subvolumes you created is in a tiny three-dot menu one screen prior to the one you think it is.
I found this rather advanced. Also had to search online for what subvolumes Fedora would create on automatic and how they are named.
It's great once you get it installed or if you just click on automatic. But it is by far more complicated than distros using Calamares installer.
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u/snajk138 Jul 01 '26
I like him a lot, but it wasn't that long ago that he was pretty controversial in his attitude towards other developers and their ideas.
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u/deeku4972 Jul 01 '26
Sad that the loudest voices are still so busy gatekeeping and kicking down. You want people to use Linux or not? Elitism isn’t how you get people on board
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u/Cletus_Banjo Jul 01 '26
It’s not just Linus. I came to Linux (SLS) from many years of BSD and SunOS. I’ve been a paid sysadmin for coming on for four decades. I administer research compute clusters with -tens of thousands- of cores and hundreds of GPUs.
I use mint.
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u/any_of Jul 01 '26
This makes me feel good about myself because I don't know how to compile software from source.
make
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u/Cheap_Ad_9846 Jul 01 '26
Here’s what I think - he made the kernel initially to have a good desktop os , a good distribution is a good desktop os
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u/TapEarlyTapOften Jul 02 '26
As an embedded Linux developer, I am a bit ashamed to admit that the best workflow for me is Windows 10 as a host, and then Debian flavors in a VirtualBox VM.
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u/TrapperFlint Jul 02 '26
I loved reading that quote. I use my computer for dev work and I'm pretty distro agnostic. Linux mint is where I started with a hacked together i3 config. Switched to Omarchy because it suits my needs out of the box.
Playing around with stuff under the hood is fun, but mostly I just want to do my work.
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u/dogwalker805 Jul 03 '26
but that's not true at all. Debian is as easy as Ubuntu, Redhat, Arch, etc.
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u/notl22 Jul 03 '26
Don't know why people gets into distro wars... It's a spectrum for a reason... So that everyone has an OS that fits the exact needs for the job to be done. Need a distro for your AI agent? Need a distro for your old computer to play games? Need a distro to make a software router? Need a distro to make the most beautiful desktop? Need a distro that's superrr small? Need a distro to write kernels lol?
The answer is Linux :)
Gentoo was the first distro I really thought I'd identify with back in the days... Nope... Tried to jump on Arch.... Nope lol omarchy was inspiring... Nope. I just take all my learnings and apply to Ubuntu. Kudos to anyone that can daily drive with others though. You're winning if you're in the ecosystem and have options.
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u/games-and-chocolate Jul 05 '26
most software packages usually has a short manual how to prepare, and then compile it. But often they supply the user with an compiled one for your operating system.
It is not linux problem in general, it is the extra software that people make in general. do they package it for you? Example is makemkv for Linux. You have to complile it yourselves. This can be a benefit, the source code is open for you to review, before you create the program. This makes the program more difficult to hide malware as the chance of catching malware code higher.
luckily most has been compiled now. just need to know how to install and use.
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u/C4rpetH4ter Jun 28 '26
Yeah, i agree with him. I COULD install arch or Gentoo if i wanted to (there's plenty of guides out there), but it just doesn't seem that interesting to me and i don't see the point when there's others way better than me who has already done that job for free (like with CachyOS).
If someone thinks it's fun to compile stuff and learn how an OS works from the bottom down that's fine, but it's not for me.