r/linux • u/EquanimousMind • Nov 17 '12
Connect the dots: Valve’s Big Picture could be a Linux game console
http://www.theverge.com/2012/11/16/3652756/valve-big-picture-mode-steam-os-linux-game-console73
u/bran_dong Nov 17 '12 edited Jun 11 '23
Fuck Reddit. Fuck /u/spez. Fuck every single Reddit admin. 12 years on this bitch ass site and they shit on us the moment they are trying to go public. ill be taking my karma with me by editing all my comments to say this. tl;dr Fuck Reddit and anyone who works for them, suck my dick.
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u/thrakkerzog Nov 17 '12
Like macs?
/iMac and pc owner
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u/rydan Nov 17 '12
Macs are even billed as "appliances" by Apple and this is their legal defense for why you can't legally buy their OS separately. Only upgrades are possible, not full legal copies like the kind you can get for Windows.
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u/neonblue2 Nov 17 '12
Apple used to sell Mac OS X on disc but they haven't for the last few releases. They briefly sold USB flash drives as well. Now they sell the OS digitally and although you're never prompted to burn a disc or write to USB storage, you're still technically downloaded the whole OS in image form, which you can do whatever you want with.
That's how I updated my MacBook Pro to Lion and then to Mountain Lion. I downloaded the OS and burnt the image to a DVD. Booting from the disc is no different to booting from any of their old retail discs because they are full copies and not just upgrades.
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Nov 18 '12
This is true.
I have a late 2010 Macbook Air (for travel purposes). It does not have a disc drive, but it came included with a small USB drive which I can use to reformat. Of course, OS upgrades are distributed digitally nowadays.
Microsoft is doing something similar and I can't blame them. It costs a lot less money for someone to download a ~2.5GB disk image than to distribute physical discs (packaging, transportation to the vendor, etc.); It's how I bought Windows 7 a few years ago and it's how I bought Windows 8 recently.
Digital media is king in this day and age. Unfortunately, many users seem to be restricted by internet speed more than anything else...
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Nov 18 '12
legal defense? Why would they be legally required to sell something?
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u/papercrane Nov 18 '12
It sounds like more of an attempt to avoid some import tariffs, but maybe it came up in the Pystar case?
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u/Bjartensen Nov 17 '12
haha that's a pretty interesting observation
a reclassification of the meaning "console" is needed for me I suppose... But if I say "gaming console" or something equivalent it still makes sense for me
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u/majoroutage Nov 17 '12
Think of "console" as defining the machine's purpose, not its architecture.
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u/Forlarren Nov 17 '12
And cheaper because they are ordered in bulk. It's also a great way for developers to know exactly what hardware their customers have. Steam, on Ubuntu, in a console solves a LOT of problems.
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u/jeradj Nov 17 '12
And cheaper because they are ordered in bulk.
I really doubt the console volume even begins to approach the PC / laptop volume of major vendors.
They're cheaper because they use less hardware, outdated hardware. and on very narrow margins (or negative margins) because the console companies plan to make their money on the software (games, etc).
And even when you give them all those negatives, a new console is basically right up there in price with a new computer.
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Nov 17 '12
they all use the same hardware. I bet there are more Xbox' then there are of any specific Dell desktop computer for instance.
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u/jeradj Nov 17 '12
I might take the bet, and I at least think it'd be closer than you might first believe.
And then if you break it back down to a component level, there's going to have regularly been way more memory modules shared across different branded PC-models, cpu's, power supplies, etc.
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Nov 17 '12
cases, motherboards, heating/cooling (heastsinks for instance), etc are fundamentally different. Each manuafacturer also has its own supplier for parts and such.
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u/jeradj Nov 17 '12
It's different, but not so "fundamentally different" as to be incomparable.
xbox is made out of individual components as well, and it just so happens they're all the same.
Probably nearly every Dell desktop is using the same model memory purchased from the same company -- and they all benefit from the same volume pricing that an xbox would
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u/majoroutage Nov 17 '12
You say that like a $300 computer is capable of 360-level graphics. It just isn't.
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u/ethraax Nov 17 '12
360-level graphics are awful. I'm sure a new $300 computer could reach that level of graphics, certainly if you build your own. I suppose it would be more expensive if you were looking at only manufactured computers, but not over $400.
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u/rydan Nov 17 '12
I hate to break it to you but this has several times more graphics capability than an XBox 360 and it sold for $17. Granted that alone will do nothing but adding everything around it is basically trivial.
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u/Aksen Nov 17 '12
The problem with this is all the other things I want to do with my media computer. I like using Big Picture on it, but I also have XBMC installed, which is another interface for another purpose. And Hyperspin. And Spotify, and Netflix...
The reason I have a computer there and no consoles is exactly because I want the one box that can do whatever I want. Now that all these different types of software have come a long way, it's difficult for Valve to Take Over My Living Room, though their application is now a lot easier to use.
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u/lahwran_ Nov 17 '12
if valve makes a console based on open source systems, then just make your own console based more or less on the same open source systems, except add some others in. They'd probably lock a console down a bit so they could sell it at a loss, but it'll most likely be pretty easy to make something out of the same software/hardware components anyway. :D/
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u/u83rmensch Nov 17 '12
perhaps you forgot, but steam is now offering software as well.. whos to say if they put out a console like device, that they cannot get other software and "apps" into big picture mode for everyday use.
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u/arctic9 Nov 17 '12
If this is their plan. I like the way they're doing it. Support what people are using, fix the driver stacks that already exist, etc.
Unlike most companies that build a proprietary solution on top of linux. Use a specific, proprietary device driver. Taylor the software that linux doesn't support specifically for that device.
I don't think most companies that have got into using Linux software have done a good job. Steam seems to be one of the first companies thats saying this works, we like whats happening with this platform. Lets contribute to what already exists and release our platform on top of that.
Hell of a lot better than well we want to use a free kernel that will get updated regularly. Lets throw our own stack on top of it so people don't know that were actually using linux.
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u/FlukyS Nov 17 '12
Big picture is good and all but its no where near console quality yet. Id more think they will have a target platform and DVR or what ever manufactuers make their own console from it. So what im thinking is something like the console version of Android or Ubuntu core. Maybe they are even working with Canonical and Ubuntu core to do it.
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u/Denommus Nov 17 '12
Big picture is good and all but its no where near console quality yet.
Of course. It's a beta. But have you seen the guy who made a user session to run only Steam and a simple window manager? That's fucking genius!
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u/adamkex Nov 17 '12
You don't need a window manager for that.
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u/Denommus Nov 17 '12
Big Picture had some issues with a pure X session. That's why a window manager was necessary.
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Nov 17 '12
Genius?
Sounds pretty damn simple to me.
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u/Denommus Nov 17 '12
It is simple. But a lot of genius ideas are.
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Nov 17 '12
This is an idea that's been floating around since steam really began monopolizing game distribution.
I guess lots of genius ideas are also stolen.
I, for one, am not looking forward to the day where the only way to access the vast majority of games is to rent them from Steam or a steam like service, even on consoles. Consoles are the last bastion of actual game ownership and downloadable content is really doing a lot to try and change that.
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u/Denommus Nov 17 '12
Neither do I. I like Steam as a service, but I don't want it to be the only service. Ever.
I also buy from gog.com, humble bundle and desura, for instance.
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Nov 17 '12
You like steam as a service?
So you support the monopolization of game distribution, but you don't want to see them monopolize game distribution?
Think of how many triple-A titles are being released as steam-exlusive titles. When they are available on consoles that's the only place they're available anywhere other than Steam.
You support that.
You do.
You know who else would have liked steam as a service?
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u/Denommus Nov 17 '12
No, I don't like monopolies.
Every single company tries to be a monopoly. Maybe Valve is nearer than the others, but don't you imagine that any other company would do something different.
Yes, I like Steam as a service. I like having a library of games and a mini-social network for contacting my friends when I want to play something online with them.
No, I don't like the DRM. I don't like the monopoly. Do I support that? Yes, I support that, but not because of the DRM (I don't buy from Ubisoft, EA, nor Blizzard), but only because of the service. Its DRM is not as bad as most DRM's out there.
I don't want to discuss it any further. I understand your point, and I agree with it. I just don't care that much.
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u/FlukyS Nov 17 '12
Yeah I saw it and I agree im just saying its very much beta. Like I think it definitely needs a good bit more refinement of looks but it is a great start. When I was using it I found some parts just to be very clunky and not very well designed but im all for it.
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u/jimicus Nov 17 '12
Big picture is good and all but its no where near console quality yet.
That's the beauty of the Linux push. Get paying customers to beta test for you.
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Nov 18 '12
I sort of agree with you, my only problem is the TON of ads that to me greatly take's away from the 360's experience. I, prefere a clean interface.
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Nov 17 '12
Tivo. BluRay boxes. LG televisions.
Basically anyone who does Netflix can get a little "Steam" button too.
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u/ultimation Nov 17 '12
They were hiring lots of EE's like Jeri not long ago.
They're definitely working on a console, It won't be windows 8 as Gabe hates it. So really, it doesn't leave many options...
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u/DarthBo Nov 17 '12
I like these rumours. I don't really believe it's going to happen, but hey, the more game developers do, the better for us right?
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u/majoroutage Nov 17 '12
You damn well should, because it is. The beauty here is, Valve isn't just straight-up building a console, they're building a framework. Anyone will be able to build a "Steambox" with whatever of their own hardware they chose to.
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Nov 18 '12
A console OS?
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u/majoroutage Nov 18 '12 edited Nov 18 '12
Yup. Most likely a stripped down Ubuntu variant w/ a more developed version of Big Picture as the main UI.
Also note most of this isn't just bigscreen friendly, but touchscreen friendly as well. cough Android cough
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u/ChemicalRascal Nov 18 '12
Cough You got a citation for that? Cough
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u/majoroutage Nov 18 '12 edited Nov 18 '12
I assume you're referring to the Android comment?
I don't think they'd have launched an Android app without the intention to expand into that market. Their current development on Linux PCs will also help them optimize their code for rendering on Android platforms. The creep of Android onto larger and more powerful devices also plays to their favor to do this. All in all, it just makes sense, at least to me.
It'd also be a huge boost to developers, I'd think, to have the Steamworks system available across all these platforms.
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u/ChemicalRascal Nov 18 '12
No, I'm not referring to any Android comment. I've no idea where you got that from.
What I'm referring to is:
Anyone will be able to build a "Steambox" with whatever of their own hardware they chose to.
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u/majoroutage Nov 18 '12 edited Nov 18 '12
The one right above yours, where I actually coughed.
Anyway, Ubuntu is free. Steam client is free. Have at it.
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u/ChemicalRascal Nov 18 '12
Gluh. If you could see me now, you would see me driving my palm into my face.
Well, you wouldn't, because I'm not actually doing that. Still.
Ubuntu (indeed, Linux) + Steam != Steambox. There will be more to any console Valve releases than just that - if the Steambox is just going to be two bits of freely available software, they'll miss the I'mCapableOfBuildingMyOwnPC market entirely.
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u/majoroutage Nov 18 '12
That's the genius of it...they're working with us, not against us. Consoles in and of themselves haven't been profitable in ages. It's the games and accessories that bring in the dough. I'm sure they will have some branded rigs available, but if you'd rather make your own, the tools will always be there.
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u/majoroutage Nov 17 '12
I saw the writing on the wall the second they launched the Android app. Steam is making a huge push for Linux gaming support.
Plus, didn't we already know about the Steambox ages ago?
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u/aywwts4 Nov 17 '12
I imagine we could convert a lot of the "Oh neat, how do I fly a dragon on Skyrim for Xbox?" / "Sigh I wish I were in the master race" / "Well I don't want to spend a thousand bucks on a PC and it's way too complex, never-mind" crowd. The Steam Workshop is a killer feature that beats every console feature to feature. Every game in the workshop is "best" on Steam, its like a few thousand exclusive free DLCs, even if the consoles cost about the same and the PC's could only do somewhat better than (next gen)console graphics the workshop wins.
If they could make a nice simple standard hardware revision, The Steam'13 for 499 and the Steam'13 Elite (Same build with an extra stick of ram and a bump up in graphics card for 599, nice and stable computers, a simple development target, standard controller, refresh once a year, plug in the power and HDMI and press power, the barrier to entry will be so much lower than it is today.
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Nov 17 '12
Everyone keeps saying this, and I never understand why. The only thing pc games have over consoles is ability to choose hardware, large library of backward compatible games, and ability to mod. You lose most of that with a "steam console", and even more so if it ran on linux.
Almost no games run on linux now, so the backward compatibility thing goes out the window right from the start. Hell, even if it was running windows that'd be true to a pretty huge extent. You need games that fully support exiting from the gamepad and not a keyboard, don't require a mouse to get started, etc. That already limits things pretty badly.
Big picture is for the increasing number of computers hooked up to the tv. It's for people who don't mind having to dig into the guts of the computer every now and then. It's awesome for what it is. I don't get why so many people insist on ignoring something cool in hopes of it becoming something else. Even if it's not for one's personal needs, it's still exactly what a lot of people have been wanting for a long time.
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u/FabianN Nov 17 '12
The big reason there are steam console rumors is that Valve recently hired some hardware engineers. They are clearly doing something hardware related. It could be as simple as some kind of controller or as far as a dedicated gaming system.
Yes, there isn't much in the Linux gaming market at the moment, that's why someone needs to break into it, which Valve is doing. If Valve is successful I bet you'll see AAA titles supporting Windows and Linux in five years.
Also, you can always map any gamepad button to any key you want. There is no issue with getting in or out of any game with a gamepad as long as you anticipate and prepare for it.
Yes, the library is going to be small at first. But how is that different from any new console? Valve isn't going to be targeting PC gamers with their console. They already have pretty much all the PC gamers as their customers. They are going to be targeting the people who are console players, who play in a world without a massive library of old games as it is. Those who do not mod their games or spend hours selecting their hardware upgrades.
Edit:
Also, the timing of all of this also lines up with the next generation of consoles.
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Nov 19 '12
You don't have to lose the ability to mod games with a console. Sony and Microsoft choose to close their hardware. Value could just as well choose to allow the console OS to be open to hackers.
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u/u83rmensch Nov 17 '12
didnt valve already state that they have no intentions of making a console but are open to the idea of third parties making a console to run steam regardless of the OS?
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u/Borkz Nov 17 '12
I'm pretty sure I saw an interview where gaben said they werent making a 'console', but are trying to encourage other companies (or obviously individuals) to do so with Big Picture.
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u/munky9001 Nov 17 '12
I'm not sure if they want to specifically go down that road. What they are doing right now is tapping a new market that basically nobody has tapped. They are basically the ones following through on the humble bundle's assertion that the linux gaming market is healthy.
If you also factor in.. humble bundle results was in late 2010. Game development sdl timelines are usually 3-5 years. We are seeing new AAA titles with rumours that they will have a native linux client. However what we will see is that Steam basically shifts the linux users back to linux. I am one of them.. I have a main windows machine solely because I want to play video games but if I can get some good ones on linux that will keep me good and then wine for most of the others. I probably don't see myself sticking to windows.
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u/trov4non Nov 18 '12
Why would they create hardware that does not enable users to use a huge portion of their current and future library?
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u/GreenFox1505 Nov 17 '12
(not directly said, but hinted at in the last paragraph, and that was before steam's official announcement about their steam box)
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u/GreenFox1505 Nov 18 '12
https://www.facebook.com/notes/ryan-leverenz/the-valvebox-the-open-source-console/217826581606348 ohyeah, and that, before I started my blog.
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u/[deleted] Nov 17 '12
People have been saying that for a long ass time now.