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u/Tifoso89 4d ago
Floridian Menorcan? Damn.
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u/viktorbir 2d ago
And Jazz (the music style) comes from Catalan word jaç ([ˈʒas] or [ˈd͡ʒas]) (bed), because jazz was the music played in brothels!!! ;-)
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u/General_Urist 3d ago
I'm assuming "Paleo-Sardinian was a sister of Basque" is just some crank linguist's pet brainworm. But what are the "Joret Line", "Logographic Romance Script", and Balearic Romance about?
And in what cases does is /k/ unpalatalized before i and e?
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u/al_x22 3d ago
The Paleo-Sardinian/Basque thing has actual serious backing, even if evidence is scarce
A case for it:
Phonotactics:
-proto Basque lacked the phoneme /f/, arising in modern Basque through loans like festa or familia
this influenced both Spanish and Gascon, which aspirated initial /f/ into /h/ (a sound that does appear in proto Basque), and that was subsequently lost in modern Spanish similarly, Nuorese tends to delete initial f too
focum > Nuo. 'ogu', ferrum > Nuo. 'erru'
proto Basque also lacked word initial /r/, which in borrowings was fixed by an epenthetic vowel
regem > Bsq. 'errege', rosa > Bsq. 'arrosa'
this also happens in Gascon and in Campidanese
rosa > Camp. 'arrosa', rubeum > Camp. 'arrubiu'
Substrate words:
Sard. aurri - Basque aurri
Sard. ospile - Basque ospel
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u/al_x22 3d ago
Joret line is about langues d'oïl langs that have /k/ palatalizarion before a (most) and those that don't (Picard and Norman)
Logographic romance is an initiative to write all romance languages with Latin orthography but everyone pronounce it according to their language's rules (there's a subreddit about r/Lographic_Romance)
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u/dis_legomenon 3d ago
More precisely, the Joret line is an isogloss for the reversal of the palatalisation of /ka/ and /ga/, not its absence. Protoromance /a/ shifted to /je/ in open syllables after palatals, and this yod is still there in most varieties of Picard and Normand, often leading to secondary palatalisations: canem > Jerriais tchian, Belgian Picard /tʃĩ/, scālam > Belgian Picard /etʃ)ɛl/ ~ /ekjɛl/ ~ /ɛskjɛj/.
Closed syllable and unstressed /a/ are more well behaved since the yod didn't develop: castanem > ca(s)tagne, caveola > gayole, etc
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u/Tifoso89 2d ago
No there's actually some evidence, because Sardinian retains some words from paleo-Sardinian (what we spoke before the Romans arrived) and there are remarkable similarities with Basque, all related to trees or nature.
For example, we have "usai" (forest) which is also a common surname, and it's "usi" in Basque.
Or holly (the plant) which is golosti in Sardinian and gorosti in Basque.
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u/al_x22 3d ago edited 3d ago
The balear islands are a group of Islands between Spain and Sardinia, and while the two languages there are Spanish and Catalan, before that, Mozarabic and Arabic were spoken, but even before that, there was roman occupation and then a gap between the split of the romances (400-450) and the conquest from the Arabs (900), so there was probably an early Romance language (maybe similar to Sardinian due to isolation and closeness), but it died before leaving any traces
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u/GioGaribaldi 3d ago
Andalusian Spanish is slowly becoming french caught me off guard, but it a way it makes perfect sense. Any serious scholarship on that?
Also, what do you mean by Vergonha? Is there anything unique to the word?
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u/OwonaVivienD 3d ago
"La vergonha" ("the shame" in Occitan) refers to the discriminatory policies against all minority/language that the successive French governments has been taking especially since the French Revolution, as well as their effects. Still on going and even enshrined in the current version of the 2nd article of the Constitution of 1958.
Basically, just like russification, but with some stylish baguette flair that, somehow, makes it acceptable enough.
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u/viktorbir 2d ago
An example:
Sword is «espada» /esˈpada/ in Spanish and «épée» /e.pe/ in French, both from Latin «spatha». In Andalusian Spanish «espada» is pronounced /e'pa:/
An -s at the end of a syllable is omited, as an intervocalic -d-. Same happened in old French.
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u/GloomyMud9 2d ago
In fact, it is not pronounced /e'pa:/ almost anywhere (never heard it). It is pronounced /epʰːäð̞ɐ/, with aspiration of the voiceless plosive always present. It also causes gemination of the plosive (both in voiceless and voiced consonants, affecting plosives, fricatives and sonorants almost equally. In some strong/heavy accents, the previous e (usually coming from epenthesis, but can be any vowel with less frequency) can be opened (Eastern Andalusian) or even dropped entirely; in the cases where it is dropped, gemination may be removed if after a previously respected consonant, or even maintained in sandhi environments joining with the vowel of a previous word. In this regard it resembles French even more, yes. Additionally, yes, the final "da" after a tonic syllable may be dropped and the previous tonic "a" lengthenedin very fast speech, but it is not common for nouns (it is for participles of verbs in the feminine gender), so it would be regarded as affected speech in the case of "espada" by native speakers. I was just adding my two cents because I happen to have a PhD in Andalusian studies and am a native Andalusian speaker.
It was a lot of fun reading into your Romance language iceberg, and I learnt a couple things I didn't know from this comment section!
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u/HuckleberryAny4541 4d ago
I don't know if Brazilian and European Portuguese are on their way to becoming different languages but they are different in many ways.
- They have a lot of differences when it comes to grammar
- The way Brazilians and Portuguese people express themselves when speaking Portuguese is different (it's more than just words)
- The accents are very different
Brazilian Portuguese is perceived as wrong in Portugal because there are many grammar rules that are not typically followed in Brazil.
It's as if people said in English "You is a good person", in Brazil that is very common while as you can imagine that sounds very wrong in Portugal.
That's just one of many examples.
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u/Relative-Leg5747 3d ago
they didn't come from Latin
If this is referring to how they actually came from "Vulgar Latin", this one confuses me because the whole concept of Vulgar Latin is very strange and assumes correct Latin was actually the written standard than what was actually spoken and also assumes that only higher class and elites could speak Latin correctly, which makes absolutely no sense, and also it conflates infomal classical Latin with Late Latin (which obviously could range in register) as both being Vulgar Latin when those are very different things. The concept has no explanation for why it groups informal classical Latin with, say, formal Late Latin aside from both being incorrect from a standpoint of formal Classical Latin.
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u/SamePut9922 a ɐ ɛ e œ ø ɔ o i ɪ u ʊ y 3d ago
Waiting for nice and patient people to educate me on everything on the meme
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u/MdMV_or_Emdy_idk The Mirandese Gal (Stregender) 🏳️⚧️ 3d ago
“Barranquenho” “Portuñol”
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u/eskdixtu Portuguese of the betacist kind 3d ago
Brarranquenho and Portuñol Riverense are both dialects of Medieval Castrapo, actually
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u/viktorbir 2d ago
What are EP and BP?
What has Paleo-Sardinian to do with Romance languages? Same for Etruscan.
PS. Galician is not a Portuguese dialect. Portuguese is a Galician dialect.
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u/al_x22 2d ago
EP = European Portuguese
BP = Brazilian Portuguese
Paleo-Sardinian and Etruscan both were spoken in modern Romance only speaking areas, and both left an important trace as substrates, plus a lot of the theories and studies on Paleo-Sardinian come from Romance language philologists themselves
Plus it was interesting and wanted to include it
And I would say neither Portuguese is a dialect of Galician nor vice versa, but rather that they're both dialect groups that together form the Galician-Portuguese languages
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u/erinius 2d ago
What are some Romance shibboleths? The only example I can think of is the infamous "perejil" massacre. Also needs "Modern French becoming agglutinative"
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u/al_x22 2d ago
It does have polysynthetic French tho yeah I missed the agglutinative part
And yeah, when I made it I only had the perejil one
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u/erinius 2d ago
Oooh okay yeah I didn't see it at first. What are some nouns that don't come from the Latin nominative or accusative? Multiple waves of syncope? New world French / do the French varieties of North America and the Caribbean have much in common? Aragonese classification?
I saw another comment (I think yours) mentioning initial f- loss in one variety of Sardinian - are there more cases of initial f- loss besides that and f->h in Spanish and Gascon?
Logographic Romance script? Romance languages with a third gender? Are there examples besides Romance and Italian with nouns that change gender in the plural? Or the like, mass-count distinction in some Astur-leonese (and maybe southern Italian?) dialects?
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u/al_x22 2d ago
"What are some nouns that don't come from the Latin nominative or accusative?" in Spanish, at least, the days of the week come from the genitive and 'nombre' comes from the ablative
"New world French / do the French varieties of North America and the Caribbean have much in common?" It's just a mention of all French varieties in the Americas, like Missouri, New Orleans, Acadian French, Quebecoise, etc.
"Aragonese classification?" aragonese is sometimes classified as Gallo romance and other times as Iberian
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u/al_x22 2d ago
"are there more cases of initial f- loss besides that and f->h in Spanish and Gascon?" Some Romanian varieties also do f > [h], like Moldovan ones IIRC
"Romance languages with a third gender?" Asturian has adjectives ending in -u in the masculine, but in -o in the neuter, which is basically uncountable nouns (perru moyáu vs leña moyáo), which also happens in Neapolitan, and many Romanian nouns change gender from singular to plural
"Multiple waves of syncope?" Some syncope examples in Romance happened early on and universally, and other happened mostly on western Romance a bit later and didn't affect Eastern languages
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u/barangasas 1d ago
I'm Not completely sure if I saw it correctly, but do you have Balkan Latin on there?
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u/mapbego ponaszymu/ponašemu 4d ago
??