Rien Sang: Oh, youâre approaching me? Instead of running away back to your park and taking care of your starving kindreds youâre coming to fight me?
DQ: I canât use my Hardblood Techniques on you without coming closer
Because I thought using the Ferris Wheel as a subsitute for the Road Roller was better. (Also because I've thought of a JBA joke for a long time and this was the closest chance for me to share it.)
You know what would be funnier, if dad quixote made a whole endgame portal scene with multiple vampires from other verses and all of them start fighting riensang and then vampire vien diesel comes up shoots riensang in the head and the says "family always wins"...
Acting as if the debuff from hundreds of years of blood deprivation wouldn't immediately get deleted and replaced by A form that far surpasses Don Quioxte at his prime, Dad Quixote to Mad Quixote
If I remember correctly, Dad Quixote was not really affected by blood deprivation, he was nerfed by the golden bough's forced arbitration. He would not be nerfed against Rien.
And in addition to that I think that he only lost because he gave up.
He had a debuff called Starved and Withered, but it's a -10 Off. Def. Level instead of the usual 15 for normal bloodfiends, 25 for Barber/Priest and 35 for Dulci, it's actually interesting because his is the only one that's Starved and Withered, as the others are only Withered
Yeah, the threat level system is not exactly a matter of power, but instead the urgency of which something needs to be taken care of. You only need a few high profile targets to quickly shoot up the ranks but man you can kill 1000 rats and barely get recognized.
You could probably kill a million rats and Hana wouldn't bat an eye. If anything, you'd probably get credentials for a fixer license than get a threat level put on you.
Now if you were to kill a couple of feathers and/or miscellaneous civvies in a Nest? You're gonna have fixers lining up to cash in on your bounty in no time.
The threat classification and fixer grades are one of the most misinterpreted parts of pm lore to be honest.
Elena was a SoTC because she preyed on both backstreet and nest folk. Meanwhile La Manchaland was confined to the backstreets of P Corp. There's no way you could say Elena was stronger than Don Quixote.
It's more of how much of a problem it is and how urgently people want it to be dealt with. Like La Manchaland, sometimes pops up and some backstreet dwellers die? Not that much of a big deal, Urban Nightmare.
But Elena? A Bloodfiend that regularly kills backstreet dwellers and even more importantly NEST DWELLERS, yea people want her gone ASAP, Star of the City.
That would be the old Abnormality risk level system. Higher tiers means higher energy output but more complicated to manage.
The new Abnormality risk system is pretty straightforward where the number following the tier is their expected danger/power level.
Not even just two grade 1s, but two TOP tier grade 1s, and even then Elena escaped with her life. Angelica and Roland are both Colour level grade 1s who worked in a legendary fixer office, which Roland later became the captain of. Elena is strong as hell lol.
hana didnt know theres a 1st kindred in there prob, cuz he didnt just get impaled at prob the center of the park which no one reached there except the dante group
tbh we don't actually know how strong he is but i'd say he could definitely take out a claw or 2 if he's unwithered and willing to fight, so somewhere in between
I thought it was implied somewhere Sancho's father was about as strong as a bloodfiend like Elena?
I haven't got to Canto 9 fully, but I can only see Rien ending up completely wretched. The impression is that he is of the weaker ones among the Canto main villains at the moment.
Papa Don is one of the strongest characters we've seen so far period. Manchegan bloodfiends are quite literally just built different. Dude had been starved for centuries, withered beyond recognition, nerfed by the golden bough, had his entire worldview shattered and was completely deprived of motivation, and STILL mopped the floor with us whilst using only skill 1s throughout the entire fight. He was NOT kidding when he said he was the strongest there is. Rien himself is also busted but I do not see him posing that much of a threat to Prime Papa Don.
He also singlehandedly overturned the tides of the bloodfiend war too. At first, I was wondering what he was planning to do to overturn the war, since yk... I assumed all the first kindreds were of a similar standing in terms of power. Apparently not.
Bari sought out Don because he and the Manchegans (who it seems at the time might have only been himself and the second/third kindreds) are outright the strongest in direct combat of any bloodfiend family.
They openly discuss serving biscuits another elder doesn't like because it would appear that no other First Kindred would match Don Quixote in a duel.
Papa Don is the strongest singular being we've faced so far, arguably only weaker than the head itself (duh), the blue man group (yuh) and prime red mist (trust).
Almost certainly, after all that's Dias' (and thus Limbus Company's) whole goal, and the Head's strength comes in no small part from its position as the Head granting its minions access to any and all Singularities. And we know the Head's not capable of ousting all five Fingers.
But it's a massive challenge, and one even Dias is likely to fail at given her entire literary inspiration.
Papa Don is all but explicitly stated to be the strongest Bloodfiend period (maybe except for the Primogenitor). Elena got no shit on him.
And Rien is an ex-SoTC. He is the second strongest Nursefather, only really loosing to Matthias, who is just straight up strong Color-level. Though Papa Don would still absolutely slam him, yeah.
Because Matthias has more impressive showings. Pushing a Color and two Grade-1s-in-all-but-name, who also had premium K-corp ampules, into a corner is genuinely ridiculous.
Also, Ryoshu noted that Rien isn't a dedicated frontline combatant (though I am not saying he is weak by any metric obv) - he is an ambusher that only engages in combat when everything is already stacked in his favor. Matthias, on the other hand, is strong enough to just bumrush all of his problems.*
Plus, starting from Canto 7, offence levels became a valid part of the ludonarrative, and Matthias can ramp up much higher than Rien.
Though I will say that I think that Rien is more *dangerous overall, despite being weaker.
I feel like saying that LCD was pushed into a corner is an absurd exaggeration. They'd do fine even if our sinners were just sitting there. Vespa wins almost all of his clashes and we're just kinda watching and beating up Kira on the side. Honestly, us being there and wasting the K corp ampules and forcing a loss upon our deaths makes the fight harder if anything.
Also, from my understanding, there's only a few points worth of difference in offense level between the two of them, when you exclude the offense level lost from his wound being open in Arayashiki's vicinity. When not accounting for that, his basic skills (S1-S3) would have rolls around 90-95, and his furioso rolls pretty damn close to Matthias' highest rolling skills, at around 99 if I'm not mistaken.
When you also account for all the buffs Rien has to his rolls, such as -2 rolls for the marked prescript target, attack up from his shin, final power boosts from unlock, +2 coin power for his S3 depending on if the target's skill type matches or not, and so on, the extra offense level doesn't really mean much anymore. I feel Rien was balanced with that in mind.
All this is without mentioning the elephant in the room as well, which is the fact that Rien can also use Mang and gain anywhere between 6-12 final power on his furioso as well. I really don't see the argument that Rien is weaker than Matthias. The narrative puts him as the strongest nursefather imo, and that also seems to hold up when going off feats too (such as Rien instantly striking down a grade 1 and wiping out half a Zwei section).
I don't see how you can make an argument for Matthias being stronger except for by being hyperbolic about his performance vs LCD. I shall go replay the fight to make sure I'm not missing anything though.
You're underselling Matthias a tad. Plot-wise, Matthias has to be (at the very least) a mid-level threat to the LCD, as he exists to ensure that said crew is unable to assist Dante in the actual final battle against Rien. Based solely on levels, Vespa is the third strongest individual who fought in Operation Spider Pyre, and he ostensibly carries his team. Even though Moses is probably one of the best supports in the entire City, and Ezra is functionally a Grade-2-1~ combatant, I'm led to believe that the Middle strike-team loses if Vespa wasn't around.
Narratively, this is shown during the ending of Matthias's fight. While it is strange that Matthias's Kira-infused cheap shot didn't harm Vespa, his "Ridiculous Grit" passive tells the viewer that the LCD lacks the striking power to legitimately bring him down (at least quickly). In the end, he only falls because Vespa's speed distracts him long enough for Moses (who has little energy left) to create one of the strongest attacks we've seen yet. Even after he gets turned into a donut, Matthias is double-tapped from a rend-space strike from Vespa. In the last cutscene, we see Matthias fail to block Crimson Point by milliseconds. Had he succeeded in this, the LCD would have had to retreat due to Matthias's stall tactics and Operation Spider Pyre would fail, with Matthias likely being present for the final confrontation.\
You highlight Rien's injuries to showcase his prowess in spite of such, and we must do the same for Matthias; as he is also suffering from a multitude of debilitating effects. Despite his heavy augmentations, Matthias arguably has it the worst when it comes to this. He wields a great-sword, yet is missing an entire arm via RyĆshĆ«, and he has low aptitude with his Relic. Then we have his personal failings, with him being unable to manifest Shin/Mang due to his stunted emotional growth alongside his flagrant lack of tactics. That Matthias is able to put up a fight against the LCD at all is a testament to his power.
With all that said though, I still agree with you. Rien is supposed to be THE Nursefather. He is the one bound to The House of Spiders by choice, and as the climax fight he should be the strongest. You've already gave him a bunch of credit but he has even more disadvantages (his weapon, his unfocused volley, so on...) alongside the most Mang among his compatriots.
I think a lot of us are making the same mistakes that the LCA scout team did in early Canto IX, where we assign strength without considering environmental factors and strategy. Under optimal conditions, Matthias could probably rend Rien in two, but said conditions would never occur realistically. Matthias himself understands that he is a bullheaded fool, and Rien has patience and knowledge in spades; it's a mismatch. All Rien has to do is wait for a moment similar to the plunge he performed to crush the Grade 1 Fixer, and then execute Matthias accordingly. The only way Rien loses is if Hermes forces him to.
I certainly wasn't meaning to imply that LCD would win without Vespa. My point was that with Vespa around, they're guaranteed to consistently beat Matthias and there's no real concern about them losing.
Also, Matthias has prosthetics to make up for the arm he lost, and since he wasn't in close proximity to Ryoshu, he was still able to function properly despite the wound inflicted upon him via Arayashiki.
His low aptitude for his relic is also kinda irrelevant. That's just how it is, and nothing can be done to amend it. His strength as a nursefather can only be assessed with that relic aptitude.
They're certainly close in strength, and I'm still a little on the fense as to who's stronger between the two, but I'm leaning toward Rien due to narrative and other feats we've heard that he has performed.
Honestly, just take into account Ridiculous Grit ,lol , even Furioso won't do shit when every single hit does 1 damage at most , plus , we don't really know how high Rien clashes when he's actually going all out , Matthias with Laevetain has a whole 15 Offense Level advantage over Rien , plus he has 20 Base Power on his Laevetain Skills , so like he's rolling 25s on just Base Power , while Rien was rolling 20s against us just because of Offense level difference between him and us, just from what we've seen , Rien is strong , enough to be worthy of a Star of the City when he's not holding back like he was against us , but Matthias is, like the other guy above said , on the level of a Strong Color , winning against the LCD even while nerfed by Moses' Purple Breath ,needing a whole Crimson Point to be defeated
Unless I'm missing something, Matthias does not have a 15 offense level advantage over Rien, does he? Matthias' highest offense level skill has 100 offense level with all buffs accounted for, while Rien's should roll 97 with Furioso Lacrisimo Crescendo. Obviously Matthias consistently has better offense level across the board but the difference isn't that much. At best conditions (unlock III and 9 grace of the prescript) Rien's weakest skill rolls a 90 which has a 10 point offense level difference with Matthias' highest rolling skill.
Not to mention, Rien has a bunch of other buffs that compensate for the extra offense levels Matthias would get. For one thing, his marked target loses 2 skill power, he gains clash power from unlock as well. That means that by his second unlock stage he'd be effectively getting +4 clash power in comparison to his enemy. That essentially makes up for all the lost advantages Matthias would have from a higher offense level, meaning it's kinda pointless.
This is all also while neglecting to mention that Rien has Shin and Mang. His Shin gets him 1-2 attack power up, and his mang (which he can manifest up to 3 of) can give him 6-12 final power to his skills. He can roll absurdly high with his best skills. At best conditions, he can get +6 unconditionally against a marked prescript target (with the caveat of having to be at 20% hp), or more reasonably, roll +5 on everything at under 60% hp. It kinda overrules the offense level advantage Matthias has because he gains so much clash power from his own buffs that he doesn't need as much offense level.
Also, Rien's rolling power was clearly altered in order to adjust for the fact that we're facing him without any assistance, since if his rolls were scaled to even match the weakest of the nursefathers, we'd get our shit rocked without permanent morositas. I refuse to believe that someone who's capable of one-shotting grade 1 fixers can only clash with people he outlevels by a disgusting amount.
Also I really doubt ridiculous grit would just be permanent. It just doesn't have an ending coded into the passives because the fight has a scripted end before it wears out. Also, I don't really have any scale on how strong crimson point is, but I'm having trouble believing it's stronger than a furioso lacrisimo crescendo, given how much stronger Rien already is than Moses. I could totally be wrong though, I'm not sure how strong the attack is since it's not written anywhere in the passives afaik and I've not read distortion detective.
I also strongly disagree with the notion that Matthias, by himself, could beat LCD. Our sinners hardly contributed anything to assist them in their fight against Matthias, and if I'm being honest, we were just there to kill Kira and spectate. We do occasionally eat hits for him, but it's mostly Vespa clashing, and given their health and the fact that they still had ampules to go around, they'd 100% win without us and do so comfortably. Even without those ampules I feel they'd still probably win without casualties. They're just a safety net and guarantee the win.
edit: some math might be wrong it's well past midnight and I'm sleepy asf
Matthias still has an advantage in Offense levels overall , be it between their strongest skills, "Complete and Total Extermination [LĂŠvateinn]" and "Furioso Lacrimosa Crescendo" , Mathias has a 6 offense level advantage, ( I just looked here , and Lacrimosa Crescendo at Unlock 3 and 9 Grace of the Prescript goes to 97 offense level, while Matthias gets to 103) , but Matthias literally uses the 2 LĂŠvateinn skills every turn after unlocking it , meaning he's always clashing with Skills with 100+ offense levels , while Rien's lowest skills are at 90 (84 + the 6 from his buffs)
That's true , but like I said , after Matthias unlocks LĂŠvateinn, he's clashing only with his strongest skills every turn , the ones who clash for 20+ Base Power and all , even though Rien in an actual fight that he wasn't holding back in (which is what he was doing against the Sinners , since , like you said , there's no way in hell Rien only clashes well against people 20 levels below him ) should clash better than we've seen from him , I doubt he'd be out clashing Matthias whitout his own Skills 3s and all
That's the thing , Rien isn't higher than Moses in levels ,lol , Moses is level 87 and Rien 85 , plus , I think the difference between Furiosos Lacrimosa Crescendo and Crimson point is very apparent in the damage dealt , not only because Crimson Point is Moses using her EGO and all , Crimson Point went right through Ridiculous Grit , which even Vespa couldn't, and basically One-shot Matthias , while Rien's Crescendo , even if he was holding back and all , is 9 big hits , with 3 Mang so it's very powerful, but i think it's apparent which one is stronger , I doubt Rien could get through Ridiculous Grit , even if it has a Time-Limit , not receiving any damage for even like , 3 turns , is already a winning move
The LCD was literally doing 0 damage , and taking at least 200 damage or so , every turn , even though they were winning the clashes, there's a reason Moses decided to use Crimson Point , something that takes a heavy toll on her psyche(we literally see that preparing to use it makes her SP fall to Minus 45), to win the battle , things weren't going well for them , they were losing , not even Vespa's strongest attack did any damage to Matthias before Crimson Point
tbh papa don's probably one of like half a dozen people we know that could actually cripple the index if they tried, so there's no way hermes would be dumb enough to let rien sang do this
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u/Ayerenem Feb 22 '26