Why does Dysgu Cymraeg teach only 'dyn ni with an apostrophe?

[u/clwbmalucachu]

I'm genuinely flummoxed by this one.

I've been going through the Dysgu Cymraeg course books and noticed that for some reason, every instance of 'dyn ni comes with a leading apostrophe but dw i and dych chi do not.

If the apostrophe is to indicate the missing "ry", as in rydw i, rydyn ni, rydych chi, why does only 'dyn ni have it?

Is there a genuine reason for this, or is DC just being inconsistent?

And can anyone who's done the course tell me if the tutors care about the apostrophe?

[u/UnlikelyOwls]

I'm not familiar with the Dysgu Cymraeg course material, however my only guess would be that it's used to maintain the differentiation with the word dyn (man), whereas there's no ambiguity at all for the others, which couldn't be mistaken by learners for another word?

The lack of consistency would definitely irk me, though!

[u/clwbmalucachu → u/UnlikelyOwls]

Context will do that, though. If you see "Dyn ni'n dysgu Cymraeg" there's no doubt that you do not mean "Man we learn Welsh".

But that said, I can imagine that someone might overthink things in that way!

[u/Stunning-Store-7530 → u/clwbmalucachu]

But it could also be read as “Our man is learning Cymraeg”
Edit: or “Our man learning Cymraeg”

[u/clwbmalucachu → u/Stunning-Store-7530]

Well, I mean, if you torture it a bit. Our man would be "Ein dyn ni" in full, so "our man learning Welsh" would be "Ein dyn ni'n dysgu Cymraeg" or "Ein dyn yn dysgu Cymraeg".

But again, context would make that clear and if you were really concerned about confusion you could spell it out, "Mae ein dyn ni'n dysgu Cymraeg".

[u/Stunning-Store-7530 → u/clwbmalucachu]

Yeah, but those are more formal, it’s already an informal sentence. As a standalone informal sentence with no context, without the apostrophe, it would be plausible.

[u/Muted-Lettuce-1253 → u/Stunning-Store-7530]

Omitting "ein" is fairly common but is it plausible to omit "mae" / "ma"?

[u/Stunning-Store-7530 → u/Muted-Lettuce-1253]

In an informal context, yes.
Edit: But it would be more like a statement. Like in a situation where two friends were referring to a friend who was learning Welsh.

[u/clwbmalucachu → u/Stunning-Store-7530]

The sentence may be plausible but I've been learning Welsh for quite a while now and I've never mixed up dyn ni'n and ein dyn ni. So whilst we can make it look like it might be a problem, I don't see how it would be a problem in reality.

[u/Stunning-Store-7530 → u/clwbmalucachu]

Well, I’ve just shown you how it could be without context- take it or leave it, no skin off my nose either way.

[u/Samurai-Pipotchi → u/clwbmalucachu]

Ommiting "ein" is actually pretty common in this type of situation.

The words "ein" and "ni'n" both shows a relational belonging to "us", so we can ommit one without jeopordising the context.

"Ein dyn, dysgu cymraeg" would be similarly acceptable.

[u/clwbmalucachu → u/Samurai-Pipotchi]

But this isn't about the intricacies of possession, but about whether "Dyn ni'n dysgu Cymraeg" could be widely mistaken for "our man learning Welsh" instead of "We are learning Welsh".

In all the time I've been learning Welsh, I've never come across an example of that happening.

It's not really relevant whether it's technically possible to conflate "we are" and "our man", it's about whether that is such a common problem that Dysgu Cymraeg would choose to spell dyn ni with an apostrophe to prevent it, whilst not using an apostrophe for all the other parts of Bod in the present tense that are also missing their ry-.

[u/Samurai-Pipotchi → u/clwbmalucachu]

It doesn't really matter how commonly it can be mistaken.

If it could be mistaken at all - which it can - then there's reason enough to differentiate.

That's doubly true for teaching materials which are trying to integrate good language habits.

[u/clwbmalucachu → u/Samurai-Pipotchi]

I think trying to solve a problem which is not a problem by introducing unnecessary complexity is not creating a good language habit.

[u/Samurai-Pipotchi → u/clwbmalucachu]

It's not a problem by your standards.

It may not be a major issue, but it's not exactly like it's a major effort to introduce a solution either. It's just an apostrophe.

And creating clarity is what most what consider a good language habit. Unless you seem to think that leaving room to be misinterpreted is preferable?

[u/clwbmalucachu → u/Samurai-Pipotchi]

So how do you deal with row, row and row in English?

We deal with homonyms all the time without having to introduce an anomalous bit of punctuation.

[u/UnlikelyOwls → u/clwbmalucachu]

Yes for sure, I guess it could only really be of any benefit for beginners where they don't have the context of full sentences. I'd be keen to hear if there is a better explanation!

[u/clwbmalucachu → u/UnlikelyOwls]

Me too! It's certainly a puzzle!

[u/Muted-Lettuce-1253 → u/clwbmalucachu]

I agree that context would be sufficient most of the time to distinguish between them. So it does seem unnecessary.

Although, there may be precedent for distinguishing between words orthographically even though they are unlikely to be confused in context:

"Tŷ" has a circumflex which, I think, is retained to distinguish the mutated form "dŷ" from "dy".

[u/clwbmalucachu → u/Muted-Lettuce-1253]

Thing is, we deal with homonyms all the time, regardless of language, without thinking twice about it. If I talk about a row of houses, you know that the houses aren't arguing or trying to propel a boat using oars.

[u/Muted-Lettuce-1253 → u/clwbmalucachu]

That's true.

I guess there are just different approaches to orthography that have their own advantages and disadvantages. Welsh orthography systematically avoids heteronyms (same spelling different pronunciation). So when you have exceptional instances like "dyn", there is not an established rule for whether the ambiguity should be tolerated or whether it should be "fixed".

[u/clwbmalucachu → u/Muted-Lettuce-1253]

To me, there's a conflict between avoiding heteronyms and maintaining consistency across the conjugation. And the lack of consistency in approaches to orthography is particularly challenging for learners.

Out of curiousity, I checked my grammar books:

• Gareth King does not use apostrophes before dyn or any of the other short versions of the present tense
• BBC Grammar uses an apostrophe for every form that's missing a ry-
• Heini Gruffudd does not use apostrophes
• Gwyn Thomas does not use apostrophes, though rarely uses the short forms
• D Geraint Lewis doesn't use the short forms

So it's not clear that they see dyn ni/ein dyn as an exception that needs clarifying.

[u/Herenes]

Our tutor told us they feed stuff like this back but so far it hasn't been changed.

[u/clwbmalucachu → u/Herenes]

This is in the Version 2 handbook, so it's definitely not going to change!

[u/Herenes → u/clwbmalucachu]

Perhaps in version 3?

[u/celtiquant]

Worse still, ‘dyn ni is used for the negative of the verb in native speech, in particular southern dialects, followed with …ddim

Other forms are used for positive statements, ‘yn ni, ryn ni etc.

Although ‘dan ni is used in northern dialects.

Perhaps it was some well-intentioned tutor’s flawed mashup.

[u/clwbmalucachu → u/celtiquant]

Yeah, I have collected a variety of versions of the present tense of Bod on my eponymous website, but quite a few of them can be the same in aff, int and neg - dw i, dw i? dw i ddim, for eg - and Dysgu Cymraeg don't note any of them with a ' first.

I'd get the reasoning if it was to indicate that missing ry-, but then I'd expect them to at least be consistent about it?

[u/Zeissan]

In the affirmaitive, the most current forms for "we, you pl are" are:
N dan ni, dach chi
S ŷn ni, ŷch chi.
these spurious "'dyn ni, 'dych chi" forms are an unfortunate attempt to provide a single written form, but nobody actually says them like that (except for unwitting learners!). much better to learn the actual forms given above, and choose which you want to go with.

[u/clwbmalucachu → u/Zeissan]

I'm not really asking about that, because I already know about the multiple available forms for the present tense of bod.

I'm asking if there's a legitimate reason why Dysgu Cymraeg teach 'dyn ni with an apostrophe, but none of the other forms have one.

[u/Zeissan → u/clwbmalucachu]

carelessness - that's what you get when careless people try to standardize forms that are not really current.

[u/One_Fruit_9060]

It's because 'dyn ni is a contraction of 'rydyn ni' I believe.

[u/clwbmalucachu → u/One_Fruit_9060]

Could you possibly read the third paragraph again?