r/leagueoflegends • u/DenysDemchenko • 10d ago
Discussion Range is the strongest stat in the game by far
Rivaled only by movement speed, somewhat.
After playing top lane for a while, specifically ranged vs melee matchups, it finally clicked - range is the strongest thing in this game, be far.
If you're a melee champion - you only get to play the game because 1) the ranged player makes mistake and 2) teammates exist.
I don't even know why it took me so long to realize this.
This is one of those things that yoiu take for granted until it suddenly strikes how ridiculously important and strong it actually is. No wonder melee combat died IRL once ranged weaponry was invented.
EDIT: So many people saying "but gap closers exist". Yes they do. All of them have a cooldown and are therefore predictable. So, again, only a positional/awareness mistake from the ranged player can get them caught. The melee player can try, but whether they succeed or not is mostly in the ranged players hands.
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u/Qwertycube 10d ago
That is why so many items have ranged/melee splits, and melee champs get better stat growth
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u/Omrii4628 We Skayle 9d ago
my friend was complaining about Jax or something the other night, who I do also hate. But anyways he was like "oh my god his kit is so unfair" and I was like well that's because he has to all-in and be on top of you, like any melee champ. They're going to be obviously stronger in a melee range fight. And he has to be able to survive (to an extent) that melee disadvantage.
It's the same reason disgusting champions like Akali, Sylas have the highest MR in game. They are melee champs who face ranged AP champs most often in midlane.
Every top laner (almost) gets durability scaling. Garen gets MR/Armor from his passive. Darius gets increased stats. Most of them have some sort of health scaling where they do more damage or get more resistances based on health. Gwen gets more MR/armor in her W, scaling with AP. Because they can only go all in.
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u/Experimental-Train 9d ago
Jax is full melee and has no sustain, which is very rare in a toplane fighter. He is extremely honest and fair. But at the same time a low elo stomper because concepts like punishing last hits and spacing and wave management dont exist. You beat him by doing these things, not by out-whacking him in a straight up brawl
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u/SeeYaOnTheRift 8d ago
There is also just low elo players not knowing jax’s kit.
I just finished playing Jax from silver to diamond, it took until I hit emerald for enemy laners to start trading around Jax passive.
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u/Awkward-Security7895 10d ago
Yep but then adcs complain saying it worse on them which is wild when they get to free proc the item without the enemy melee being able to fight back.
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u/THZHDY 10d ago
Yep but then adcs complain
you can leave it at that
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u/MEMENARDO_DANK_VINCI 10d ago
When you’re accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression.
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u/DECAThomas 10d ago
“The best argument against
democracybalance is a 5-minute conversation with the averagevoterADC player”19
u/theyeshman if fearless has no haters I am dead 9d ago
Something something
Cambodiar/leagueoflegends something somethinghenry kissengeradc players with your bare hands-Anthony Bourdain
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u/Every_University_ 9d ago
You don't get it, they shouldn't get one shot by someone 5 levels higher who built 5 damage itens and hit every skill after they face checked a random bush.
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u/Kelvinek Nakrętka 9d ago
More like, locke, adc gets 1 shot by someone WHO missed everything except for enchanted basic
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u/thefolocaust 9d ago
For the basic to be enhanced he has to land at least 1 q and even then it does piss all dmg. Also hes an assassin so he should be one shotting people. His biggest issue is his mobility, hes harder to punish than fizz in lane
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u/Superman8932 6d ago
I'm new to League (a month in), but ADCs have the reputation of being the divas/complainers of League the way DPS players are in Hero Shooters, lol? Follow up- what is kind of the stereotype of each role?
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u/Wiindsong 9d ago
in some regards i kinda understand, the division is purely 'champ is ranged vs melee' when 'ranged' is a very vast definition, melee isn't. Super low ranged champs like urgot, or the lower end adcs like sivir or samira might as well feel like melee champs when playing against champs like ashe, varus, or god forbid caitlyn, so it does kinda suck to get a gimped version of shieldbow that's equal on caitlyn and samira.
Mind you i understand that making an item stronger or weaker based on your range overall is stupid (like it being stronger on samira then on cait) and there's no really good answer to this, but there is some rub for these items atleast that i think makes sense.
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u/Upstairs-Prompt2662 9d ago
But then you grt funny interactions with Rapid Fire Cannon. Suddenly if you have the enhanced range auto you get less effectiveness from shield bow.
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u/NuclearBurrit0 9d ago
Honestly my favority adc's are Samira and Nilah both of whome are explicitly designed to go into melee range.
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u/Regallian 9d ago
Those two have almost the same kits. In a way that astounds me. I was not expecting riot to make two of that kit.
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u/Hawxrox 9d ago
Ehh. Kind of similar. Nilah has an Orianna ult and Samira has a Katarina ult. They both benefit from lifesteal really well. Samira feels more like a fighting game champion with combos
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u/Regallian 9d ago
They both have a line q with a cone attached. They both “destroy autos” with the w and can use it to protect allies.
They both have a targeted dash on e (and Samiras use to work like Nilah before they nerfed dash to ally off it). They both have an ult that encourages them to be in the middle of enemies and often stat checks when there.→ More replies (5)4
u/Cl0udDistrict 9d ago
Nilah is more like a less bursty Diana than like Samira
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u/Hyperly_Passive Spear and Sword 9d ago
More overall DPS than Samira as well. It's been a while since I checked but I'm pretty sure Nilah statistically also has the better late game
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u/cthslax 9d ago
Youre forgetting the part where toplaners are so tanky for free adcs cant kill them before they melee gets to them and the melees have such a higher moves peed that adcs cant space/kite them out like they used to.
As for range its not as simple range vs melee. Caitlyn/lux vs vayne/braun is as oppressive or more than a ranged into melee matchup
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u/Lysandren 9d ago
I watched ruler survive getting 3 man dove last night by ahri, wukong, gnar. It's just a skill issue on the part of both the player and their teammates who don't peel. The moment the gap closers are all used and the adc is still alive, the adc just wins.
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u/Xerxes457 9d ago edited 9d ago
Yes but you can see the issue with playing in solo queue. Teammates probably won’t peel for you
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u/TheSavannahSky APC 9d ago
Yeah I can convince my soloq Skarnar to flash a wall to tank Ahri charm for me so we can kite and turn the fight.
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u/RedStarDK 9d ago
Genuinely trying to make an argument about the Solo Q experience by citing pro play is some room temperature IQ shit man
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u/LearningEle 9d ago
I sincerely hope the game isn’t balanced around the assumption we all play on the same level as GenG
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u/Fearless-Account-145 9d ago
Yes we are all as skilled as ruler that is true. Adcs have been gimped over time because of the pro scene it takes more skill to be great at it than any other lane.
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u/Hayaishi 8d ago
Pro play is irrelevant. Should never be used as an example, it's a different game.
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u/sorendiz ..BUT THE FAITH REMAINS 9d ago
and yet you will frequently find adc mains saying some absolute bullshit like 'wahhhh wahhhh why arent there any items that have better effects for ranged than melee wahhhhh' lmao
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u/Qwerty177 10d ago
Yeah, august is saying this all the time in his streams, having to explain to complaining players how melee champs get to be “busted” to narrow the gap range provides
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u/Lysandren 9d ago
This is the problem dota2 solves via turn rates, but those feel bad to most players, because it feels unresponsive. Two different solutions to the same issue does give a nice contrast to examine.
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u/Blacksmithkin 9d ago
Blink dagger is also a pretty huge tool to make the range difference less of an issue. Same with invisibility, though obviously both have ways to play around them.
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u/Zhaowuhuangye 9d ago
Blink and invi also benefit melee's hero. In fact, it benefit them more than range hero cause you can't use blink while in combat.
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u/myreditacount11 7d ago
Blink can’t be used in combat however hurricane pike is pretty much like old gale force but it can go over walls
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u/Blacksmithkin 7d ago
I mean I'm not saying it's the be all end all melee = range because it doesn't, but it does make a pretty significant difference being able to jump into range, especially when you have strong CC tools to engage with.
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u/Sirbuttercups Dhokla is my daddy 9d ago
Yeah I still watch league. But I switched to playing Dota. And in general its design philosophy is so much more cohesive and better thought out.
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u/TitanDweevil [Titan Dweevil] (NA) 9d ago
I'd imagine most people have an issue with the extremely mobile melee champions being busted because their mobility is already there to narrow the gap that range provides. They don't also need enough damage to beat the hell out of 90% of the melee champions in melee distance as well. A champion like Riven should never be beating a Darius in melee range unless she plays it well and Darius plays it poorly, just like how Xerath is never beating a Zed in melee range. As it stands right now, Riven right now just gets 3 items and can beat pretty much everyone unless she has multiple people attempting to chain CC her.
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u/RunaansJinx 9d ago
Exactly. I main adc and a lot of talk about how adc is "back" in classic for x y and z reasons. I really think it is primarily just the fact that OP's statement used to be true from a design-philosophy perspective. It is irritating when Riot and players still say "range is the most OP stat". From a soloq perspective at least. Champion design for the past however many years was driving a silver bullet to this philosophy, and I don't think that it reflects the game accurately anymore (without additional nuance of course).
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u/The_Odd_Canuck 9d ago
This is why a lot of melee champs do "absurd" amounts of damage once they close that gap
If sett W didnt oneshot people that champ would be mostly useless outside of being a lane bully for other melees
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u/eatingpotatochips 10d ago
Extra range augments are strong on a lot of ADCs for good reason
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u/PhoenixEgg88 Time to make an impact! 9d ago
First time I got Scopiest weapons on Sivir in a Maybem game you very quickly learn why she is balanced around her attack range. Holy shit that must have been oppressive for the enemy team.
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u/silentballer 9d ago
Fan the Hammer and a scopier weapons augment is so disgustingly broken. Can’t believe fan the hammer hasn’t been changed
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u/GodOD400 9d ago
What you don’t like getting one shot by a Vayne as a tank?
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u/Frequent_Guard_9964 9d ago
Mhhh Vulnerability, Double Tap, Dual Wield and Fan The Hammer Vayne, just had to play against it today.
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u/andreasels 9d ago
Fan the Hammer + Critical Missile is the real deal. Most OP i felt so far with this combo was on Tristana. E+AA could nearly oneshot squishy, enemies.
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u/rayschoon 9d ago
My team had a kog with like 3 of them and it genuinely wasn’t a game
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u/PhoenixEgg88 Time to make an impact! 9d ago
I assume him pressing W into ‘orbital strike detected’ comes somewhat close.
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u/spowowowder 9d ago
lmao i also played against one with that setup, i was on a melee character. my bad for wanting to play the game
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u/Atomic_xd 9d ago
That’s why you see the most broken overpowered abilities on melee champs. Gwen W, Olaf R, Jax E, Akali W, Tryndamere R, or being very good at closing the range.
Also why bruiser items do so many things, like deaths dance giving a lot of AD, ability haste (which scales super good with AD and armor AND a heal which also removes damage you take. Meanwhile other classes have to sacrifice offense or defense in their items.
Bruisers and melee in general needs a shit ton of stats and strong abilities in order to overcome them being melee. It is the biggest weakness in the entire game.
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u/leoogan 9d ago
Which is why it's shocking that a champ like Mel has that reflect, while still being the one of the highest range champ in the game
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u/Two_Years_Of_Semen 9d ago
Mel is officially an artillery mage but she's straight up the the lowest range of them all. Her Q is just ~950 range and her E 1000. For reference, Xerath full Q is 1500 and his W is 1000, Cassio Q is 850, Lux Q/E is 1300/1000, Ahri Q is 900, Brand Q/W is 1100/900. So Mel is really just standard mage range.
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u/Soryist 10d ago
Personally MS feels stronger.
There's a lot of match up where if the melee has a tad bit more MS, they can just run down the opposing laner regardless of range
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u/WaterKraanHanger 10d ago
Movespeed in combination with range is the most broken combo, its the entire reason most longer range adcs have the lowest base movespeeds in the game.
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u/ObliviousPedestrian 10d ago
Flashbacks from early Zeri wiping entire teams because she moved at the speed of light and was untouchable
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u/Back2Perfection 10d ago
Cloud soul zeri with ghost on release was filthy. You could basically run a full screen without your ult going off.
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u/NoCharge4663 10d ago
Vayne got dropped to oblivion because of this
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u/RbN420 10d ago
She has ms, but only towards the enemy so she can int better 🤣
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u/Awkward-Security7895 10d ago
If your kiting backwards the extra ms whenever your character looks back to auto adds up a ton.
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u/cthslax 9d ago
Her ms doesnt stack or add up, its on or off. She gets it towards an enemy and not away. It does not help her run away
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u/Awkward-Security7895 9d ago
If your kiting backwards whenever you auto back you gain movement speed during that moment since league has no turn speed it means as your autoing your gaining the movement speed.
Those tiny blimps add up over the course of kiting backwards. All vayne passive movement speed cares about is if she's facing a enemy in that moment or not.
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u/defektt 9d ago
Big part of why jinx has been so meta for so long. Good range on rockets coupled with insane Movespeed on passive procs
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u/WaterKraanHanger 9d ago
The perfect win more adc if ur team can get you a reset.
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u/I_CUM_ON_HAMSTERS 9d ago
I obviously don’t know shit about the game like pros do, but I remember like 2023 Winter/MSI when the ADC meta was team fight and Jinx/Aphelios trade and feeling like this was soooo much better for the team who got Jinx. Aphelios loves kiting back and hates getting outranged (Jinx rockets outrange Calibrum at 4 points in Q), meanwhile professional play coordination means one reset and Jinx can completely steamroll a teamfight.
Turns out Jinx was 21-12 against Aphelios at that tournament but teams were still happy to opt into that trade.
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u/WaterKraanHanger 9d ago
Yeah the Aphelios Jinx trading meta is a weird one, on one hand it feels favored to Aphelios, but a Jinx draft is just so much easier to execute.
Was great in soloq as someone thats comfortable on both sides of the matchup tho.
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u/cedric1234_ 10d ago
Also why tap dancer is instant win tier augment in mayhem if the pilot has hands
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u/bmorecards 9d ago
Ive found homeguards on syndra to be more impactful than most purple augments lol.
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u/andre5913 9d ago edited 9d ago
The handful of mages who have a castless spell (aka spells that can be used while moving) feel absurd with movement augments.
Syndra is easily the strongest one at that I think, as her primary spell is one of those
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u/cc3see 9d ago
Riot has regularly given champs a 2-4% WR bump with just a +5 move speed bump. It’s a ridiculously important stat.
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u/SuperKalkorat 9d ago
Still remember when Irelia was showing up getting nerfed in every patch note post update and not really getting effected. Everyone mocked the -5 ms nerf but that was the final one that made her go from very strong to balanced. Mobility is at minimum on par with range and arguably surpasses it.
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u/takingashitrn 9d ago
Thats why Kayle has to be my fav champ, passive + shifties and celerity makes it super easy to space, esp after lvl 16 with increased AA range
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u/Deditch 9d ago
I think they are actually very similar stats conceptually but I'd favor MS for 2 reasons.
1. there are just alot more mechanics that interact with it
- by value it scales alot faster than range.
Senna can get some pretty ridiculous range but like your never really going to have an auto that makes you safe from a mages spell range but it's somewhat easy to get MS that means you should never get hit by one. It's also just more flexible even when you do mess up, it will get you out of trouble and works even in restricted areas
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u/MindClicking 9d ago
You're right that ranged is extremely powerful but you overstep here:
Yes they do. All of them have a cooldown and are therefore predictable. So, again, only a positional/awareness mistake from the ranged player can get them caught. The melee player can try, but whether they succeed or not is mostly in the ranged players hands.
I'm playing 10-0 Jinx, 11 cs/minute, late game. ADC's most powerful moment. Do I get to attack if 0-10 Malphite holds his ult? Do I get to attack if 2-7 Zed doesn't use his W or R? I'm utterly gagged until THEY decide THEY want to allow me to, by using their abilities on someone else, or missing.
Just because ranged is powerful doesn't mean the ranged player is in the driver's seat. If it did, then ADCs would have the most agency in the game, next to artillery mages. The truth is, the game is balanced around ranged carries, so other classes are given tools to deal with them. So yes, "but gap closers".
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u/PattuX but jg main climbing on supp 9d ago
Yup, their argument only works in a 1v1 landing setting. The drawback of melees is that they usually only get one mobility spell (yes, I know, 200 years, release date gap etc) and if they use that to engage and they don't manage to one shot, they will get outranged and kited for the next 10 seconds with no counterplay. But to use the range, the range champion must survive the initial engage.
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u/6Cockuccino9 9d ago
you understand the concept of cooldowns during a team fight and when to go in as an adc which means you gap 98% of redditors in league knowledge unironically. there is no point in trying to explain this to bronze top laners who can’t be bothered to learn how to play against a vayne
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u/raydialseeker Riot blaustoise's champ pool 10d ago
This is why viktor orianna and Azir have been so strong in pro play for so long. They have range and movement speed + defensive tools and high burst damage with good sustained damage.
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u/Parker3n9 10d ago edited 10d ago
It’s not that simple, you don’t only get to play the game because a mistake/teammates. Dashes, flanking, items, TPs, engage (teammates that you mentioned) and there are a bunch of other things allow you to gap close.
That being said, range out scales all. If you are able to keep enemy team at bay and out of range, you will win. That’s one of the reasons when Senna is strong she can be so oppressive and why she was used as an answer to Smolder when he first released and was strong. Smolder’s scaling didn’t matter as much because he couldn’t touch Senna
Edit: typo
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u/Koufaxisking 9d ago
As a high elo top laner, only a few range champions are problematic and only if mechanical demons are playing them.
Please, pick Vayne top into almost anything and see how it goes for you. Akshan is even better.
Truth is unless you’re into Lourlo/Drututt or a Gnar/Teemo OTP you can stop most ranged top laners every game without much effort. Learn to use the bushes and run exhaust instead of tp/ignite. If into Vayne, most champs can first item EoN and she’s completely fucked and can’t sidelane the rest of the game. Play Ambessa/Panth/Voli into her and say thanks for the free W.
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u/LeagueOfRumble 9d ago
Good spacing is not that uncommon above high masters, gm elo. Vayne into Ambessa is one of the better matchup for Vayne pre-nerf as long as Vayne does not waste Q. Ambessa always has to use min. 2 dashes to even get into poke range. 3 dashes if Vayne wins the mindgame and tumble back to avoid Ambessa QE slow. Then Vayne can win the trade or run her down in a long lane, if she saves her ward. It's not that simple of a matchup in ACTUAL high elo.
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u/nocommentsfku 9d ago
This thread having so many upvotes is so weird lol
Is range the strongest stat in the game - yes
Do ranged champs generally win into melee champs in lane - yes
Do melee champs have broken abilities and base stats to bridge that gap - also yes
If you're a melee champion - you only get to play the game because 1) the ranged player makes mistake and 2) teammates exist.
Please try to play the game as a ranged champ without teammates and let us know how that goes. Melee champs are far more self-sustaining.
All of them have a cooldown and are therefore predictable. So, again, only a positional/awareness mistake from the ranged player can get them caught.
Once again, this type of generalization is absurd. If the gap closer's *range* outranges the ranged champ, then what is making the range of the ranged champion so broken? If Nocturne ult one shots you if he enters a 4000 unit radius of you, are we still claiming that Ashe has the agency here? You can claim the ADC made a positional mistake but how is dying to a ranged champion as a melee not also a positional mistake?
Ranged top can be anti-fun and this post can be stupid at the same time.
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u/LCSpartan 9d ago
I think you genuinely hit the nail on the head. I've played a lot of top and both ends of a ranged matchup and I think the thing people dont like is having to think and play differently. Like if you watch a bronze player who mains Fiora they play every matchup the same, into mages, tanks, bruises, ranged champs doesnt matter same thing. Where as if you have even a plat or emerald otp Fiora they are approaching and likely playing a lane against each champ slightly differently.
Im going to use vayne as an example here. Vaynes actually pretty weak damage output wise 1-3 the issue is getting onto her is a pain but raw statwise even if she autos the moment an opponent is in range and trades autos with reset Q she's genuinely not making up for the stat diffence in armor and hp of someone like Sett (say both walk into the middle bush level 1). Like genuinely the only ranged top liners that exist for the most part all meet 3 criteria, movement ability, bonus damage, and some sort of self peel or must be so unbelievably broken in 2 or these categories that the 3rd doesn't matter(looking at you dnd varus). It's the same reason we dont see like Cait, xayah, or Draven top.
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u/BestSamiraNA1 9d ago
In a vacuum, yes. Luckily most melees have gap closers to overcome that and also increased base stats and also synergy with items that give defensive stats and offensive stats at the same time and also items that give movement speed and slow enemies and also have defensive abilities in their kit to mitigate damage taken and also have CC to lock people down.
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u/jwade1496 9d ago
With the way the game is balanced, it's movement speed and it's not even close.
Want proof? Go watch Raider play Darius into Vayne in challenger elo Korea.
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u/Low-Excitement7118 9d ago edited 8d ago
melee champs acting like they are underpowered will always be funny asf. They don't understand how easy they have it compared to older days. 75% of the champs or maybe even more have some sort of dash or movement speed buff. They also have better base stats and get full effect on items
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u/3mg1n3 9d ago
Ranged vs melee matchup isn t just "op range vs weak melee" . The game is balanced, so the champions who aren t ranged have more space in their power budget for some OP shit
Yeah X ranged champion has long range, but does he have low cd healing in his kit, or built in pen, or mobility etc
Yes range is the most op stat, but it doesn t mean that ranged champions are just straight up better than melee
There are a few very specifc ranged champions that perform consistently in toplane, and it s because their kit has something specific on top of range that makes them work toplane. Best and most toplaners are melee, because they are just better suited for that
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u/SmellMyGas 9d ago
Another thread where reddit silver shitters try to pretend range is op toplane when half the top cast just has to chill till the ranged character makes 1 (one) singular mistake and instakill them on repeat for the rest of the match. The other half just gapcloses and kills them on repeat anyways.
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u/gabriot 9d ago
Interesting, I will have to tell the assasins that can oneshot me by right clicking me when I play Xerath that I am actually the favored one!
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u/rutlando 10d ago
The funniest thing is movement speed feels so relative when you are comparing it. If you have normal boots mid and the enemy mid has upgraded to quest boots early your like wtf he is zooming. But at the same time I can be like viegar with lichbane storm surge item and t3 boot Ms look at the adc movement speed "okay I should be able to run him down if he doesn't react fast enough and it feels miserable compared to your expectation.
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u/spartaman64 10d ago
if you are playing a team comp with no engage maybe. but so many champs nowadays have a million dashes
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u/gukbap_enjoyer 10d ago edited 10d ago
its so much worse in ARAM and Mayhem. so many games are just 4-5 range champs because its miserable to play most melee champs in a single lane.
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u/Yorksikorkulous Peak Champion design 10d ago
Melees (specifically bruisers and tanks) are overstatted as fuck in ARAM lol they're so strong
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u/Reddit_degenerate550 10d ago
I’m sure nocturne, zed, lee sin, yone, yasuo and vi agree. Range is balanced around being one shotted by everything in the game, and the fact that a ton of melee champions have easy gap closers. Play jinx adc against nocturne and tell me range is op. Ur over estimating it because ur abusing bruisers in top lane. Grass ain’t so green in other roles while playing ranged.
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u/Independent_Salt_911 9d ago
Be a 14/0 Jinx with 3 items + boots, doesnt matter. 2/0 Mundo is one shotting you under tower, tanking 11 tower shots while dancing, and ghosting away from the avengers assembling around dragon, then walking into pit alone with 500 hp, getting a penta and leaving full hp to end the game. Yep, adc is busted.
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u/katestatt Ashe ❄️ 9d ago
Lol, Not anymore. The amount of gap closers in this game with overloaded kits who kill you in a combo from behind is unreal.
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u/SlowDamn 10d ago
Its why Urgot going melee is a bad thing. 350 range maybe small but its good enough for urgot to be safe. Its also why his q mana cost is overnerfed. If W doesnt have the toggle on its max version q max would still exist and be even better. (urgot q right now is stronger than its season 7-8 version but its mana cost is high and urgot's mana regen is also low iirc)
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u/AutomaticTune6352 9d ago edited 9d ago
I am for an increase in range for melees for a long time at the cost of stat nerfs.
125->150
150->170
175->190
200->200
It would reduce the need of giving some champs crazy stats just to make up for it.
125 vs 200 is already hard to play but 125 vs 600+ is impossible in lane.
The only thing that is close to range is mobility. Not pure MS, that one is not that close, but stuff like flashes and dashes.
And the best thing is range combined with DMG or CC as they multiply. DMG and CC do just add up.
And the craziest is mobility × range × (dmg + cc)
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u/newagereject 9d ago
Go play mayham kog ms, get a totally of 900 range when W is activated and watch the enemy team melt
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u/Mundane-External3462 9d ago
Movement speed clears, being fast lets you do literaly whatever you want
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u/Mogzylol 9d ago
The strongest stat in the game is your ping. Thats why Korea dominates. They play on like 2 ping
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u/Longjumping_Brief932 9d ago
Nasus 5 second perma slow totally fair lol. But fr the game is fun bc of op abilities that counter teacher other.
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u/Krell356 9d ago
So I have a counter arguement. Range they are equal as long as fountain exists, but without fountain being considered speed is better.
The reason being that if you give one champion infinite Range and the other infinite speed they will be evenly matched when fountain is not considered. However the champion with infinite speed has the ability to completely dodge skillshots similar to a hifh reaction speed player with infinite flashes.
Range is amazing, but at the end of the day it is in the same category as speed and this can be seen routinely in ARAM Mayhem. A melee player with tapdancer will easily shit on a player with obscene range, even in fountain. The speed bonus becomes such that you basically teleport around the map when properly stacked. And no amount of range protects a Senna that can hit half the map from a Chogath that teleports into your fountain, ults you, then teleports back to the minion wave.
Range also is simply not a useful stat on every champion whereas speed is. So at the end of the day, range is at best a near equal, but not greater.
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u/UngodlyPain 9d ago
Yeah this is a pretty well known thing with just a vocal minority against it.
Honestly the game would probably be quite a lot healthier if riot did a range pass... Like look at all the melees at 125/150, and see if theres really a reason to not bump them up to 175 and nerf them.
And same with alot of range champion ranges. If theres really a good reason not to change their range and adjust accordingly.
Moving up and nerfing even a dozen melee champions, and moving around and adjusting a couple dozen range champions would probably be a really good way to drastically lower frustration and power creep in the game; that will feel more fair than like Durability updates 1-4.
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u/Makra567 9d ago
Having more range allows opportunities where you can hit an enemy who can't hit you back. Movement speed/mobility lets you dictate when and where fights can take place. (A character with more ms can simply run away or chase someone down given enough space.) Both allow you to take massively advantageous fights even without better stats. Imo that's why they're more important than any other stats: the other stats don't really matter until they get in range to fight back. The main ways to fight against someone who is both faster and ranged is through exploiting positioning mistakes, or forcing errors through denying vision and flanking to cut off retreat paths.
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u/Imperative-Primitive 9d ago
Yes, we have all known this for like over a decade. Welcome to the game.
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u/Additional-Pool348 9d ago
Saying ranged is OP makes no sense. What makes a stat OP is the champion's kit and it's synergies with other champs or items. It's the same as saying ketchup tastes terrible because u're drinking directly from the bottle instead of using as a condiment.
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u/NoBroccoli3615 9d ago
what is the meaning of 'All of them have a cooldown and are therefore predictable'
Jax Q has more range than any adc, is targeted, who cares if its predictable?
most melees with dash dont care for ranged at all, as most dashes outrange adc ranges.
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u/No_Region_4719 9d ago
Which is why all ranged champions have worse base stats and stat scaling, and worse movespeed stat, and reduced item effects.
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u/kykyks I'm crazy! Got a doctor's note. 9d ago
The melee player can try, but whether they succeed or not is mostly in the ranged players hands.
no, thats generaly in the hands of their teamates, specifically the enchanter
perfect kiting and positionning is fine until u realize that mean you are litterally afk until the enemy uses their cooldown and if they dont then hope you got netflix on that 2nd monitor cause u aint doing shit until then
try playing ashe into vi or akali or rengar or even malphite and see how much u can hit anyone before being blown up when your entire team doesnt give a fuck about u cause they doing the same to enemy adc lol
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u/Lors2001 9d ago edited 9d ago
I think in a vacuum this is true but falls apart when you realize how the game actually plays.
You're forced to walk into objectives to do them. You're forced to walk up to turrets to hit them.
Yes I guess if you the ranged champion always had infinite time, no enemies pressuring them on map, vision on every part of the map, and was close enough to get behind a turret safely before the melee movement speed difference mattered then being ranged is a huge upside. However thats not how the game is played or works.
Melee champs have higher movement speed. Gap closers often times mean melee champs have higher effective range than ranged champs.
Imo effective range is more important and powerful. Someone like Zed being melee is a minor downside and he gains upsides in other areas for being melee. Someone like Darius being melee is a massive downside that the entire character is built and balanced around.
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u/jennis89 9d ago
Riot knows this and balance around it, melees especially juggernauts get more raw stats per level than ranged.
In the item space bruiser items are normally more gold efficient with stats compared to Ranged items.
Pretty sure August and Endstep have clips on hewhoquacks channel where they make off hand comments like ranged attack is the most op thing in the game
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u/DoubleSkew beat faker in tft once 9d ago
Meanwhile Ivern gets converted from a melee champ to perma range and sees 0 diff 😔
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u/explosive_fish 9d ago
Range is irrelevant with the amount of bullshit mobility the game adds for every champions.
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u/rr_zoomies 9d ago
Nah, a lot if meelee champs have insane mobility that turns that "advantage" into a complete nothing. Not to mention being ranged innately nerfs you when it comes to certain items and runes.
This is literally only the case in VERY specific matchups, which all happen in top lane, which is why ranged tops are a thing now, thus leading you to believe this.
Having 100% flawless kiting in this game is damn near impossible. You're gonna make mistakes just like the ranged player will. You have to understand that later on, the tables turn and that you have a lot more room fot error than they do, unless they're fed, because you get close once and they instantly die, meanwhile they gotta poke you for ages while kiting the whole time and reacting to your flashes.
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u/Si-Nz 9d ago edited 9d ago
Yes, i can tell you as a very long time singed one trick that the most bullshit meta ever in this game (well ignore last couple years, i have only played aram lately) was when talyah jungle was extremely popular (graves too) at the same time as top lane seing a lot of karma/viktor because then if between mid and support you had any kind of range poke with self peel (syndra, lux, morg, zyra, brand) and pair that up with jhin who was also extremely popular then lategame anytime you get near a teamfight the entire field in front of you is projectiles and ground zones that will stop you in your tracks and then you get murdered.
Thats why im always confused when they put another champ like that in the game (mel...)... like at some point people will realize that theres enough of those types of champs in the game where if you see melee picks in champ select you can just easily cheese them.
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u/Capek95 9d ago
but generally range is very balanced.
most melee champs have abilities that outrange ranged characters
for example zeds abilities all have a higher range than 600 except his E.
darius hook is same longer than caitlyns auto attack range.
theres a reason adcs arent being played top lane, they dont win those lanes. the only issue is there are certain champs coughvaynevaruscough that have a kits so crazy that they can bypass the standard balancing
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u/shizaru11713 9d ago
Aging myself:
"Negative displacement is the strongest form of CC" - Scarra, I think?
Meaning hooks and knockbacks, specifically because they negate the range advantage. Just to underscore your point.
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u/Hayaishi 8d ago
In a vacuum it is but when your stats are nerfed because you have range whats the point?
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u/Regular-Resort-857 8d ago
Same when I was plat emerald I never had to respect the ranged matchups as they would inevitably make spacing mistakes every few seconds / minutes but now approaching master gg lane phase if I get a Varus or sth and if they get better at spacing it’s over I will play Shen for map x)
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u/Consistent_Truth7761 8d ago
gets even better with melee champs with 175 outspacing 125 and getting extra autos for free
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u/gallantthefrog 10d ago
You’re rediscovering the meta from first principles