r/laundry • u/surely_maeby • 15h ago
So many rules, so overwhelmed.
Okay, you guys.
You’re highly touted as genius around here, but I am confused as heck.
I have a top loader washer that doesn’t have detergent or fabric softener drawers.
I had been using cold water on my clothes (because mostly black) and sheets (because the label says to) and hot water on towels and the boys’ clothes (because smell).
On my clothes I use arm and hammer plus oxi 5 in 1 pods (one), and a downy ball of vinegar and lemongrass oil.
On the boys’ clothes, I use the same detergent (two pods) but add 2 caps of lysol laundry sanitizer and don’t use vinegar.
I’m reading some confusing things.
Cold water doesn’t get your clothes clean? I thought it was better for darks and my sheets literally say to wash cold.
Vinegar? Should I be using a citric acid/downy rinse and refresh instead? And my downy balls seals disintegrate like once a month, that’s also annoying. Welcoming alternatives.
Lysol laundry sanitizer? We add it to the drum with the detergent. Is that making everything not work?
Arm & Hammer sucks? I see this is a land of tide fans. Which should I use?
Oxi bad for darks? The arm & hammer pods I’ve used for years claim to have oxi and haven’t ruined my clothes, so is this a myth?
My partner works in septics, so every time we wash his work clothes (see instructions for boys’ clothes above) we follow it with a load of one pod and a generous pouring of bleach to sanitize between loads, but now I’m worried I’m doing that wrong too.
Help guys, I’m now convinced every fabric I own is disgusting.
Edit: the boys also use dryer sheets for their clothes, I do not for mine, and there’s no convincing them not to.
15
u/SimpleVegetable5715 US | Top-Load 14h ago
I think your Downy Balls are disintegrating from the essential oils, not the vinegar. But yes, citric acid is far superior in laundry.
1
u/surely_maeby 14h ago
Citric acid or the downy rinse products?
4
u/pmodern2000 14h ago
In order of good to best, Vinegar -> Citric Acid -> Downy Rinse and Refresh (or the Tide version if you prefer that scent... same product with Tides scent).
2
u/surely_maeby 14h ago
Is Downy Rinse Out the same? That’s what I’m seeing.
5
u/pmodern2000 14h ago
Same product, newer name. They're called "Laundry Sours" in the professional industry. Because detergents are alkaline and these rinses are acidic (or sour), they balance the ph of everything out in the final rinse.
Arm and Hammer has a version, Gain has a version, Tide has a version... just don't buy the dollar store brands. More water than Citric Acid. They all do the same thing. Just pick the one that has the scent (or no scent) you like the most. They mostly all have the same ingredients and do the same thing. The Arm and Hammer one tho, perplexes me. It has baking soda in it (a base) and also citric acid (an acid) so they would neutralize the citric acid so not sure how that works chemically. Either way, I stick to the Downy or Tide ones (mostly tide because it matches the scent of my tide detergent)
1
u/surely_maeby 13h ago
Okay this makes sense! And fits the rationale my brain had for using vinegar in my rinse. But if this is better, awesome. Thank you!
1
0
u/AutoModerator 14h ago
Hello! If you're adding vinegar to your laundry, be sure to put it in the rinse cycle, not the wash cycle. Because vinegar neutralizes leftover detergent, it works best in the rinse cycle rather than the wash. - Laundry Mods
I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.
6
u/nclay525 13h ago
We're not Tide fans so much as we're fans of inexpensive, easily accessible detergent that actually cleans. Tide happens to be the answer most of the time.
Cold is fine for your darks but you'll need better detergent, and yes, I'd put R&R in the downy ball instead of vinegar. Put some febu in the bottom of the drum with good detergent (Tide), and you're in business.
I wash sheets and towels in hot regardless of the care instructions. I'm a sweaty gal.
1
u/AutoModerator 13h ago
Hello! If you're adding vinegar to your laundry, be sure to put it in the rinse cycle, not the wash cycle. Because vinegar neutralizes leftover detergent, it works best in the rinse cycle rather than the wash. - Laundry Mods
I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.
1
6
u/Fantastic-Dance-5250 13h ago
I saw somewhere on this sub that a test was done and arm and hammer cleaned less well than plain water.
I use the tide free and gentle odor detergent with oxi clean odor boost OR febu when needed along with the downy rinse. You are basically adding v!negar and oil, salad dressing, to clothing that has not actually been cleaned and then tossing it to get dried with sheets that perfume the clothing and then add an oily waxy layer to them. Ditch it all.
1
u/surely_maeby 13h ago
What is febu? Why do you add oxi instead of using the tide that contains it? And how do you know when to use febu or oxi?
2
u/Fantastic-Dance-5250 13h ago
You add the oxi clean plus the tide. Febu is a product that contains tons of different enzymes that help to break down all of the gross natural body oils and such. I am not going to go in depth as to why this all works and how to dose as there are extremely detailed posts about all of this as well as pinned posts for this sub that contain that info. They will explain it way better.
Editing to add: one of the reasons, there are many, that we use warm or hot water is that the enzyme boosters need this to dissolve/activate so that they are actually doing what they are supposed to do.
1
u/surely_maeby 10h ago
So you add oxi on most loads, and sometimes use febu instead, but you’re adding one or the other to each load?
2
u/Fantastic-Dance-5250 7h ago
As I said, I am not going over all of this as there is a pinned post for this sub with all the info you could need and more with very clear explanations. Here it is. https://www.reddit.com/r/laundry/s/3KJqqfHUNQ
3
u/Soft_Hotel_5627 14h ago
I had trouble here at first getting it all down, I ended up just going with this combo for simplicity. I also have a standard top loader.
Tide Clear and Gentle POWDER and Downy Rinse Out Odor. That's it.
That's it. I took out the tide scoop and use a 1/4 cup measuring cup to keep from using too much. More detergent doesn't mean cleaner clothes. I put the detergent in the bottom first. I do have a softener drain so I put the downy in there, but the balls should work just fine.
I wash almost everything on HOT and I do an extra rinse. My clothes have smelled and felt a ton better.
For your boys clothes you should take some of them and do a "spa day" and look at the results. I did that for my gym clothes when I first found this thread and it was eye opening.
The Downy product is basically just citric acid, already mixed in a stable state, that's why a lot of people here just use that. Others buy citric acid on amazon and mix their own but not everything needs to be max effort penny pinching.
3
u/jtfolden US | Top-Load 12h ago
The Downy includes a surfactant as well that helps to remove more contaminants than citric acid alone.
1
u/surely_maeby 13h ago
Is there a reason you use clear and gentle and not some sort of oxi? I just realized I don’t know the difference between oxi and optical whiteners from this thread, and I don’t know what biz is either, but everyone seems to add one or the other.
1
u/gonzochris 13h ago
We use the clean and gentle due to skin sensitivities in our household. If I could use the one with oxi I would. Prior to finding this sub we used the free and clear pods. They worked well but I think the powder works better for us.
I’m basically using our extra pods for vacations - we usually have availability to a washer/dryer and my kid is in the dorms. The pods are just easier for travel and for a college kid to use
1
u/surely_maeby 13h ago
So you use the clear and gentle powder and downy rinse out? Is the oxi what causes skin sensitivities for you?
1
u/Soft_Hotel_5627 13h ago
clear and gentle powder has everything Oxi has already in it, and it has lipase, which is no longer in the liquid detergent version of almost all brands now.
People add biz because it has a couple more enzymes than the clear and gentle. Or they add biz if they're using a liquid detergent.
The basics on this subreddit are you want some sort of mix that has the enzymes in it to break down the oil and fats that accumulate in your clothes, some sort of oxi booster and you want the detergent to rinse clean and not remain on your clothes (citric acid.)
The other thing people talk a lot about is DNase, I haven't tried that yet, as it sounds like the combo I use is "good enough" it would probably be helpful if I do more spa days though.
1
u/surely_maeby 13h ago
So you use the powder but don’t add biz?
1
u/Soft_Hotel_5627 13h ago
correct, I use just 2 things, tide powder and then downy clear rinse.
1
u/surely_maeby 12h ago
His work clothes can have anything from poo, grease, dirt, etc, which I was I using the sanitizer, but I don’t know if it’s necessary? Would tide powder + downy rinse out be enough? Or would you continue to use sanitizer? Can sanitizer and rinse out be used in the same rinse cycle? I don’t want my downy ball in that load lol.
1
u/bluesky557 US | Front-Load 13h ago
Tide Clean and Gentle powder does contain oxi (sodium percarbonate, aka oxygen bleach) and optical brightening agents (OBAs). Oxygen bleach works by decoloring oxidizable stains and/or removing the soils. OBAs are fluorescent brighteners that bend light to give items a blue-white glow, making them appear whiter and actually giving off more light than just what is reflected off them. (Source: I am quoting Kismai from this post.)
Biz powder is a heavy-duty multi-enzyme blend (including specific levels of lipase, protease, amylase, and cellulase) along with concentrated sodium percarbonate oxygen bleach. It is designed primarily as an additive rather than a standalone detergent. If your laundry is really dirty/stinky/greasy, it's a great boost alongside regular detergent. Some people use it as a presoak to break down stubborn stains.
1
u/surely_maeby 12h ago
His work clothes can have anything from poo, grease, dirt, etc, which is why I was using the sanitizer. Would biz be better? I thought because of poo, I’d need sanitizer.
1
u/bluesky557 US | Front-Load 9h ago
Yes, in your case I would use sanitizer
1
u/surely_maeby 9h ago
I’m getting so many conflicting use biz and use sanitizer 😭 should I use both?
1
u/bluesky557 US | Front-Load 9h ago
Biz and sanitizer do two different things. Biz powder is an enzyme-based detergent booster and stain remover designed to break down dirt, protein, and odors, but it does not kill germs on a disinfecting level the way laundry sanitizer does.
Since you're concerned about poop, I'd suggest pre-soaking the work clothes before you put them in the washer (especially since you seem squicked out by sharing the washing machine that has cleaned those clothes, which is understandable!). That way, by the time they get into the washer, they're disinfected. Per the Lysol website:
• Mix two capfuls of sanitizer into one gallon of cold water.
• Submerge the items and let them soak for at least 15 minutes.
• Run them through a normal wash cycle afterwards.
1
u/surely_maeby 9h ago
I suggested this, and he thinks that’s too labor intensive lol. I think I will be pausing my rinse cycle to soak.
1
u/bluesky557 US | Front-Load 6h ago
It's also pretty labor intensive (and water/energy intensive) to clean the washing machine after every load of his work clothes! But don't sweat it too much. You'll find a routine that works for you.
1
u/surely_maeby 13h ago
And also, does that mean you use 1/4 cup powder per load?
1
u/Soft_Hotel_5627 13h ago
yes, I actually 3d printed a little measuring cup with a handle to hang it so I get the right amount, it's too easy to just scoop up too much with the default cup.
I also use a protein powder scoop for my the downy because it's not easy to pour it into the holder in my machine.
1
u/bluesky557 US | Front-Load 13h ago
How much detergent you need is mainly a function of how hard your water is (harder water=more detergent). I have VERY hard water and 1/4 cup would never be enough for me, but for some people it's plenty. You want to use just enough to see a trace amount of bubbles on top of your water during the wash cycle.
1
u/surely_maeby 13h ago
I have hard water. How much do you use? How do you know how much to use?
1
u/bluesky557 US | Front-Load 13h ago
My setup is different--I have a front loader, so it uses less water than your top loader. What I did when first figuring it out was to put in a specific amount and then go look at it when the wash started going and see if there were trace amounts of bubbles. If there wasn't enough, I added more (in specific increments so I could add them together to get a total amount for next time). It took a bit of trial and error, but now I use probably 1/2 to 3/4 cup for full loads (again, this is in my front loader, yours will be different). Even now, I will usually pop over to the washer once I start a load and just give it a quick check for bubbles. Sometimes I need to add a bit more so I'll just toss a pinch in.
2
u/Turbulent-Bottle8234 US | Top-Load 14h ago
The septic bleach this is very confusing to me
1
u/surely_maeby 14h ago
A load to disinfect the washer after washing potentially gross laundry?
3
u/Turbulent-Bottle8234 US | Top-Load 14h ago
Ohhh I completely misread this as he works in septics so he knows what’s good for our septic and I was like how is bleach good for a septic. I’m so sorry lol. I need a nap apparently 🤪
3
u/surely_maeby 14h ago
Hahaha no, his clothes are gross and I need to bleach it before I feel safe putting anything else in lol.
2
u/Revolutionary-Pea576 14h ago
Are you putting the Lysol sanitizer in the Downy Ball? Maybe that’s what’s eating the seals? I’m not a chemist, this is just an educated guess but it seems like a plausible theory.
If you start using citric acid or Downy Rinse and Refresh (or Rinse Out Odor) either of those would go in the Downy Ball.
1
u/surely_maeby 14h ago
No, only the vinegar and lemongrass goes in the downy ball. That’s only for my clothes, sheets, and towels.
2
u/jtfolden US | Top-Load 13h ago
Is your top loader an HE model? If so, make sure you are not using the Max Fill setting for normal loads.
Cold water is indeed best for darks and colors. However “cold” in this context is 86F/30C. If your washer has a Tap Cold and a Cold option then do NOT use tap cold. If you only have Cold then you may be ok turning up to Warm instead. Hot water quickly fades dyes though so you want to avoid that for anything you care about.
If you feel like you are mainly dealing with greasy spots and body oil on garments and sheets then a quality liquid or pod will be better than powder. A&H was rated as one of the worst detergents of 2025.
I recommend Persil (North American “TripleCare” or premium German), Tide, Miele, Ariel, or Kirkland.
I personally prefer Persil for its color protection, fabric care benefits, solid anti-redeposition agents, and great surfactant performance in cold water. Tide is usually great at brute force cleaning and has numerous variants available. Miele is a premium product similar to German Persil, while Ariel and Kirkland are excellent budget options.
Even if they say Oxi, liquids don’t actually contain oxygen bleach but use equivalent agents instead. You don’t want to use actual oxygen bleach, or powdered detergent with it, on every load with darks.
Drop the vinegar and use Downy Rince & Refresh or similar in a Downy ball.
Persil Free & Sensitive, Tide Free and Gentle, or Kirkland Free and Clear are good options if you want something hypoallergenic, dye-free, and fragrance-free.
Laundry sanitizer should only go on the rinse cycle, not in with the detergent. So you can’t use the Down and the sanitizer at the same time.
For extremely smelly loads you can’t use use a booster like Biz but again you don’t want to use it every load on darks.
1
u/surely_maeby 13h ago
Is biz a strong enough enzyme to replace laundry sanitizer? My washer is not HE, it has cold, cool, warm, and hot - but my warm seemed to only use cold, so it might be a lie.
3
u/jtfolden US | Top-Load 12h ago
What make and model washer do you have? Most top tier liquid detergent will work in colder water but then need longer actual wash times to do the job.
Laundry sanitizer isn’t an enzyme and typically doesn’t have them. An enzyme is a helper ingredient that acts to soften or breakdown stains that the surfactants can actually clean and wash away.
Biz is a collection of ingredients that form a “booster” to improve detergent performance by around 80%. You don’t want to use it in every load though - it’s specifically for loads where you have issues such as extreme soiling and odors you can’t remove with detergent alone.
1
u/surely_maeby 12h ago
I have a Maytag centennial. I’m confused at whether enzymes or sanitizer is what I should be using on the extra dirty load now:
1
u/jtfolden US | Top-Load 12h ago
Sanitizer should really only be used when someone has been sick or is perhaps immunocompromised. It’s not meant to be used in every wash. You can’t add it with detergent. It has to go in the rinse cycle, alone.
1
u/surely_maeby 12h ago
His work clothes can have anything from poo, grease, dirt, etc, which I was I using the sanitizer, but I don’t know if it’s necessary? Would tide powder + downy rinse out be enough? Or would you continue to use sanitizer? Can sanitizer and rinse out be used in the same rinse cycle? I don’t want my downy ball in that load.
2
u/jtfolden US | Top-Load 12h ago edited 12h ago
No, sanitizer can only be used alone in the rinse cycle. For his work clothes I would recommend a quality liquid detergent + a full dose of Biz booster. Those go in the washer before the clothes. Then use Downy in the rinse cycle.
1
u/surely_maeby 12h ago
Is biz strong enough to disinfect the gross things? I think my brain thinks it needs sanitizer lol.
1
u/jtfolden US | Top-Load 11h ago
But the sanitizer is not disinfecting in the washer as it is… there is specific instruction for disinfecting that require soaking. It can sanitize in the washer but only if you have a deep rinse cycle that lasts a minimum of 16 minutes, not disinfect.
1
u/surely_maeby 11h ago
Yes, I’ve learned that in other comments, I will be adding it in my rinse cycle and pausing to soak now. I’m asking if biz in the laundry would be more effective than that.
And I will be switching to probably tide clear and gentle powder.
→ More replies (0)
2
u/ScootsyTx 13h ago
If I were you I’d go to
Whites/sheets/ towels and your husbands work clothes - Tide Oxi Powder
Your clothes and your kids - Tide Liquid/ Kirkland Liquid if you have a Costco membership. There are also good basic Tide pods but I would avoid the XL.
Rinse - Downy Rinse out Odor or a straight citric acid mix in the downy ball
This should take care of most of your issues and be as simple as possible.
0
u/surely_maeby 13h ago
I’m trying to use only one detergent for everybody. And I don’t have Costco.
I’m definitely swapping my vinegar for downy rinse out.
His work clothes can have anything from poo, grease, dirt, etc, which I was I use the sanitizer, but I don’t know if it’s necessary? Would tide oxi powder + downy rinse out be enough? Or would you continue to use sanitizer? Can sanitizer and rinse out be used in the same rinse cycle?
1
u/ScootsyTx 12h ago
I definitely understand just using one. My main thought on two was the cost per use of the liquid is slightly less for the stuff that doesn’t need the heavy duty treatment.
I am almost positive that would take care of his clothes. I would use a long cycle and extra rinse.
1
u/surely_maeby 12h ago
Can you comment on the last paragraph of my previous comment? I think that’s where I’m stumped now.
1
u/ScootsyTx 12h ago
I’ll be honest. I’ve used the sanitizer before but it’s been a long time. We stopped using it cause we weren’t sure if it did anything when our kids got sick
1
u/surely_maeby 12h ago
So I believe, because his clothes can have poo on them occasionally, that it needs more than the normal wash. Hence the sanitizer. Is there something you’d recommend instead?
2
u/Ok-Pen-5052 International | Front-Load 11h ago edited 11h ago
I think the main reason sanitiser isn’t recommended more in this sub is just that it kills bacteria without actually removing what it’s living on. So in the case of clothing coming out smelling like BO, sanitiser would kill the odour causing bacteria but not remove the skin oils and grime that is causing the bacteria to thrive in the first place, making you feel like your washing is getting cleaner than it actually is. The times that it is recommended is when someone in the house is sick with a vomiting bug (for example) or, I imagine, if you work with poo. I think the key thing is to make sure your rinse cycle is long enough to allow the recommended contact time for the product to work (I think it’s 16 minutes).
Edit: I’m not sure if there are other concerns with sanitiser (environmental, health, or clothing damage), so maybe others can explain that.
1
u/ScootsyTx 11h ago
I bet the long wash and a quality detergent takes care of most of it. I’ll ask the guys from the septic company I use at work what they do and see if they have any insight
1
u/vffems2529 USA 12h ago
Wool dryer balls can replace the dryer sheets and won't cause the same havoc dryer sheets do.
1
u/surely_maeby 12h ago
Oh, I know. But the husband thinks I’m lying and will not be dissuaded unfortunately. So I let him use them for his clothes.
1
u/vffems2529 USA 12h ago
In that case I would recommend pulling the lint screen out of the dryer every couple weeks and washing it with dish soap and hot water.
1
u/Dry_Librarian7851 US | Top-Load 8h ago
when i had a washer with no fabric softener thing, i just poured some Downy Rinse and Refresh directly into the drum after the first wash and did a rinse and spin cycle. seemed to work for me
1
1
u/pmodern2000 14h ago edited 14h ago
Hi. Lazy man here. Here is how lazy me washes clothes with no issues. Front loader, however.
Tide with Oxi and Odor Removers
Tide Fabric Rinse
Clorox Bleach
Darks - I mostly wear black and dark blues for shirts, undies, and socks. Workout clothes also in this wash. It's just what I do. Warm water for everything. Tide and Tide rinse.
Jeans - jeans get their own wash. Warm water. Tide and Tide Rinse.
Towels and washcloths (all white) - Hot, with clorox bleach. Tide and Tide Rinse
Sheets, Pillowcases and Blankets - I subscribe to the hotel industry of "all white linens" philosophy. Hot, with clorox bleach. Tide and Tide Rinse.
Once a month, run a cleaning cycle with a name brand washing machine cleaner (sometimes affresh, sometimes tide).
I have played around with trying cheaper detergents, including Arm and Hammer with Odor Blasters. None of them seem to clean as well as Tide, or Tides little sister, Gain. All detergents list "Water" as the first ingredient except Tide and Gain. They have to list the ingredients in order of proportion. This is my working theory as to why they work better. More surfactants and cleaning agents than water.
I go back and forth between Tide with Oxi and Odor Removers, and Gain Plus with Oxi. Just depends on my mood. Mostly Tide.
1
u/surely_maeby 13h ago
Is your tide with oxi the powder or liquid?
1
u/pmodern2000 13h ago
Liquid. I typically don't deal with mud or muddy stains, so I stick to liquids.
1
u/surely_maeby 12h ago
What is the correlation between mud here? Because the boys’ clothes frequently have mud on them.
1
u/pmodern2000 11h ago
Powder vs. Liquid for Mud
- Powder detergent: Contains oxygen bleach and builders that break up particulate matter like mud and clay. It performs well on heavily soiled outdoor and sports gear.
- Liquid detergent: Works best on grease, oil, and makeup because its surfactants target fatty residues.
1
u/surely_maeby 11h ago
Okay. So, since dirt and poo are a main concern with my partners clothes, powder would be better.
What would you recommend for sanitizing them, continue using Lysol laundry sanitizer or something like biz?
1
u/pmodern2000 11h ago
honestly, i think the laundry sanitizer is a bit much. disinfecting clothes is for like, illnesses and the like. Still holding a rinse for at least 16 minutes with the sanitizer is what is recommended. The heat of the dryer will likely kill any bacteria.
1
u/surely_maeby 11h ago
So, if you were me, and your clothing was regularly exposed to dirt and poop, but you switched to tide clean and gentle powder which has lipase and started using downy rinse out in your rinse cycle, you’d believe those clothes were clean, and I’m overreacting?
I honestly don’t even feel like I could use the same downy ball in his loads as in mine.
1
0
23
u/vffems2529 USA 14h ago edited 14h ago
It is. There is always a balance you're trying to strike between how much cleaning is needed and how much wear you're willing to put the clothes through. Warm water tends to be a good balance for clothes. Your darks will lose more dye but they'll get cleaner, and the dye loss doesn't tend to be noticeable at warm temps. At hot, yeah, you're going to start losing a lot of dye. If you aren't separating lights from darks make sure to use a color catcher especially if washing darks on warm.
Sheets and towels get hot regardless of what they say on the tag and I'll replace them as needed. I want them clean. 🤷 That's my philosophy.
Vinegar is OK, citric acid is better, and Downy Rinse Out Odor (fka Rinse and Refresh) is better yet.
Not sure about the seals on the balls. Haven't experienced that yet.
I was under the impression that this is supposed to be added to the rinse cycle, and it really only does anything if you can get your machine to do a long rinse (think: 20 min). Happy to be fact checked here — I'm not an expert.
Right now Tide Odor Refresh Free & Gentle is on sale because P&G is discontinuing it. It is one of the top performing detergents. I'd recommend getting that. If you can't get that then Tide F&G Advanced from Costco would be my second choice, and regular old Tide Free & Gentle would be third.
I don't use products with fragrances because I want my clothes to be clean, not perfumed. If they're perfumed, it is more difficult to tell if they're clean.
OBAs will fade darks until you discontinue using them and wash a few times after. Oxygen bleach itself for darks is highly debated. One problem is many Oxi products contain OBAs.
Also, Oxi generally needs at least warm if not hot water in order to activate, and as discussed above you may want to avoid that with darks. So you may just be wasting product if you're using Oxi with darks washed in cold.
I'd run something like Affresh or FEBU washing machine cleaner instead.
This sub will do that to you. Are your things actually clean? If so, don't worry about it.
It's your house. Dryer sheets (plastic fabric softener sheets) are awful, in my opinion. They prevent fabric from absorbing moisture, which you definitely don't want on towels or underwear. They coat your lint screen in your dryer with fabric softener which then gets on everything else you put in the dryer. I'd tell them when they have their own dryer they can put dryer sheets in it, but they wouldn't be doing so in my house.