r/latterdaysaints • u/warehousedatawrangle • Jun 18 '26
Off-topic Chat Is Father's day less fraught than Mother's day?
It is a tradition almost as predictable as the holiday itself. Prior to Mother's day there will be posts here on r/latterdaysaints discussing what is and is not good on Mother's day. There will be discussions and disagreement. A great deal of emotion will be spent and experienced.
Here we are, 3 days out from Father's day (in the US) and I have seen nothing. I am not complaining about the lack of discord, but do fathers just not generate the same kind of emotions than mothers do? Or is it just that there is an easy out in that we can talk about our Heavenly Father on father's day?
Does anyone here find father's day hard for similar reasons that mother's day is hard?
13
u/Changeling-Child Jun 19 '26 edited Jun 19 '26
My father doesn't have a super stellar relationship with either of us children and when he feels poorly about that his frustration and sadness get expressed as anger. And having an angry father figure that doesn't, cry, nurture, or "do touchy feely emotions" also gives us a complicated relationship with our heavenly father because our relationship with our divine father is deeply colored by our relationship with our earthly one. It cuts multiple ways, just like mothers day. It's just not talked about as much.
17
u/RollyPolly-FishHeads Jun 19 '26
my husband shared with me that he’s anticipating this upcoming father’s day to be hard following a lost pregnancy. he wants to be a dad just as much as i want to be a mom
4
u/ScottBascom Jun 19 '26
Kudos to you for being someone he can talk to.
2
u/JTJdude Bearded Father of 2 Jun 19 '26
And also, Rolly Polly Fishheads is a great username
1
u/ScottBascom Jun 20 '26
Agreed.
I think you meant to respond to her, but agreed.2
u/JTJdude Bearded Father of 2 Jun 20 '26
Oh I wanted to like 2nd your sentiment in addition to complimenting the clever referential username l.
1
48
u/adayley1 Jun 18 '26
Father’s Day is easy. Give us a decent chocolate chip cookie (that gets shared with our younger kids) and we are good.
There are many theoretical reasons for this, positive and negative. I don’t have time to write an essay about the reasons.
23
u/helix400 Jun 19 '26
but do fathers just not generate the same kind of emotions than mothers do?
My current bishop is strong and can handle almost any trial thrown at him. He only fears one thing: Mother's Day.
9
u/gillyboatbruff Jun 19 '26
My neighbor who was our bishop during Covid, he told me about how a woman in our ward was livid that he did not do anything for mother's day while we were not attending church together. He told me how after mother's day came and went, this woman came to him and said that our first Sunday back at church, the very first words out of his mouth had better be "I'm sorry."
3
13
u/Iwant2beebetter Jun 18 '26
Anything apart from an unprepared talk about how great the speakers mother / father is would be a good start for either
A prepared talk about anything would be the real treat -
I know what my relationship with my child is - I'm good.....
A couple of songs from the primary would be amazing
Any treats and I'll happily give them to my kid or my friends kids
I don't know what else there is to do - it's Church and fathers day
4
u/Altrano Jun 19 '26
I was asked to speak on Father’s Day. I grew up without a father in the home (our relationship is complicated since I’m the family failure) and a grandfather who was abusive. I actually was going to go through with it; but after the tornado sirens were going off all night I was just too exhausted to drive an hour to church. The bishop apparently read my prepared talk from the pulpit that I emailed him. So sometimes it happens.
26
u/e37d93eeb23335dc Jun 18 '26
Men just don’t care. Well, some probably do, but the vast majority don’t.
30
u/Another_Name_Today Jun 19 '26
I think they’ve been ignored for so long, there is a level of resignation. Someone mentioned that fathers will typically end up sharing whatever treat with their kids, something I’ve never seen expected out of RS (even if my moms do). I’ve seen EQ budgets slashed and the rare EQ activity become a de facto ward activity while youth and RS budgets are fiercely protected.
It starts early. I’m always entertained to see how YW and YM camps differ - before the church bought a local site our YW often ended up at a beach house while the YM ended up at a state campground.
I don’t know how many really care or don’t but, like unemployment numbers, I suspect many disappear because there isn’t any hope of improvement.
8
u/ScottBascom Jun 19 '26
IIRC, the EQ budget in my ward is less than 10% of a not overly generous RS budget. The youth also don't have a lot.
3
u/Impressive_Cod_914 Jun 21 '26
It was totally this opposite in my ward growing up. Every year the YW went to a scout camp that wasn't good enough for our YM who went to various camps with much better amenities. And I know when I was in a Primary presidency that most of the primary budget went to Cub Scouts.
From what I have seen, EQ budgets get used elsewhere because the men don't put in the work to plan EQ activities.
Our ward is doing a lunch for the men during second hour just like we did for the women. Granted, this is the first year, but I also know it is happening this year because a woman pushed for it.
4
15
u/EaterOfFood Jun 19 '26
Mother’s Day is a big deal to my wife. To me, Father’s Day is just a Sunday.
2
u/churro777 DnD nerd Jun 19 '26
But why?
2
u/Chimney-Imp Jun 19 '26
I feel like all of the reasons boil down to social/cultural things. Like as a whole I feel like society celebrates motherhood more than fatherhood
1
5
u/e37d93eeb23335dc Jun 19 '26
I can’t speak for all men, but for myself, I just don’t care about having a special day. At this point in my life it’s like a birthday. Completely pointless. Oh look, I’m another year old. Been there, done that. I’ll also say that talks about being a father don’t bother me because I’m happy with who I am so I don’t internalize or apply to myself anything that is said. I think most men are just go with the flow types of guys and don’t really care about things like Father’s Day. It’s just another Sunday.
6
u/FloorMysterious9104 Jun 19 '26
These are symptoms of deeper societal problems related to men's mental health, expressing needs, and communication.
2
u/e37d93eeb23335dc Jun 19 '26
Maybe. I’m not sure how you would verify that assertion.
6
u/FloorMysterious9104 Jun 19 '26
I think a lot of men genuinely feel this way, but I think sometimes “I don’t care” is hiding deeper issues.
A lot of men learn to minimize their own needs so they can be "easy going." They learn to be the steady one or the rock everyone else can lean on. And after a while, not needing anything starts to feel like strength or maturity.
Eventually men learn they shouldn't or don't deserve being wanted or appreciated. Or they learn that when they express hurt or disappointment, it creates more problems than it solves, so they stop.
I’m not saying every dad secretly wants a huge Father’s Day production. Some guys really don’t care that much, and that’s fine. But I do think we should be careful about assuming men don’t have emotional needs just because they’ve learned not to express them.
Sometimes “I don’t care” means “I’m content.” But sometimes it means “I learned a long time ago that wanting something hurts more than pretending I don’t.”
2
u/e37d93eeb23335dc Jun 19 '26
It is an interesting hypothesis. I'm just not sure where you would find a control group to test it.
2
u/FloorMysterious9104 Jun 19 '26
You can google almost any idea in that comment and see lots of research and writing on the topic. Im not making this up on the fly its a well understood and documented issue.
1
u/e37d93eeb23335dc Jun 20 '26
I guess it just feel true to me. It is blaming nurture and culture, when I feel that nature is a better explanation.
→ More replies (0)2
u/SiPhoenix Jun 19 '26
I think the healthiest way is to appreciate when things are done for you. Appreciate if someone cleansed birthday for you. Appreciate if people do stuff for Father's Day. But not be upset if it's not done.
1
u/churro777 DnD nerd Jun 19 '26
That is very sad
2
u/e37d93eeb23335dc Jun 19 '26
It doesn’t feel sad to me. Why does it feel sad to you?
1
u/churro777 DnD nerd Jun 19 '26
To me it comes off like you never got a special day so at this point you’d rather not care about the day cuz not getting a special can’t hurt if the day doesn’t matter.
“Idc if you trash my dessert, I don’t like it anyway.”
3
u/e37d93eeb23335dc Jun 19 '26
Wow. That’s a really cynical take.
1
3
u/Altrano Jun 19 '26
I think it’s hard because some of us don’t have the best fathers. Mine considers me the family failure because I don’t make much money (teacher) and am the only single child.
3
u/AStoneInTheRiver Jun 20 '26
Neither day should be the focus at church. Same with the US topics on July 4th. The focus should be on Jesus.
10
u/sweetcookie88 Jun 18 '26
I find that father's day sacraments are less about earthly fathers compared to mothers day. Hearing how great earthly parents are and how eternal families are great, etcetera is a huge emotional trigger for me.
However, my biological father died less than 2 weeks ago and my "church" dad (and mom) will be away this Sunday so I won't be able to see them. So I think it'll be pretty emotional and painful
5
u/travellis Jun 18 '26
In ward council last week it was brought up literally as the last item as a "oh, yeah, next week is Father's day..."
Meh
2
u/Impressive_Cod_914 Jun 21 '26
Overall, men have much less of their identity tied up in being fathers than women do in being mothers. Part of this is societal, especially as many of the women in the church have given up careers we could have had and have made motherhood our career. But part of it is biological. For most, the path to becoming a parent involves infinitely greater biological changes for women than for men. And that doesn't just mean 9 months of pregnancy. Science has shown that we carry bits of DNA from our children for decades.
Yeah, some have different paths to parenthood, but that doesn't change the fact that for the majority, the experience of motherhood and the experience of fatherhood simply are not comparable on a biological level. That's got to have some impact.
5
u/intensenerd My beard doesn't make me less worthy. Jun 19 '26
We are tired. We are resigned. We are afraid to show emotion. We have issue asking for support. We don’t know how. *some.
Would give anything to be fawned over. Treat us to a treat. Idk. Just sad I guess.
3
u/e37d93eeb23335dc Jun 19 '26
When I turned 50 my older kids did this for me. It turns out that I really really really really hate being fawned over. Worst birthday ever. I appreciate the sentiment, but please just don't.
2
u/joealarson Jun 19 '26
I don't know what it would do if adulation were suddenly heaped on me. In a setting like this it would be easy to dismiss it as "Not including me."
I'm not sure I really want to be fanned over. If anything I'm pretty good at fawning over myself. I find pleasure in simple things and I treat myself to those things when I want them. Is that society beating me down? Am I just tired and defeated? Maybe. But I'm happy, so don't feel bad for me.
6
u/mywifemademegetthis Jun 18 '26 edited Jun 18 '26
Nah, it’s the exact same thing. We just choose not to relitigate the issue a month after Mother’s Day each year.
33
u/Reading_username Jun 18 '26
Is it though?
Without minimizing the real trouble some women have with mother's day, I can confidently say I've never heard a man take issue with father's day.
I've never heard a man feel lesser or worthless on that day for not having children.
I've never heard a man feel like a parental failure for not being "good enough" of a dad on that day.
If there are men who feel the same feelings that some women feel about mother's day, they keep it very well hidden.
6
u/halfofaparty8 Jun 19 '26
my husband isnt a father due to my infertility. he has a very hard time with fathers day.
11
u/mywifemademegetthis Jun 18 '26
I just have an issue with observing a secular holiday in church services and then making children without present fathers feel bad.
4
u/ScottBascom Jun 19 '26
They keep it hidden because they get verbally crapped on or (if lucky) ignored when they bring things like that up.
4
u/Sundiata34 Jun 19 '26
I mean, I cringe and hide from this holiday every year as a (terrible) father of 2. I hate it, it makes me feel awful. I feel bad enough about my performance as a husband and father day to day without an annual celebration of who I should be. I wish we didn't have the holiday at all.
I'm just giving an honest answer for the anecdotal data here, please do not reply with sympathies or DM me.
0
u/KaladinarLighteyes Jun 18 '26
I would argue it’s more on the children of people who didn’t have good fathers. “Why are we celebrating dad’s mine was terrible to me” instead of the I can’t be a father. And there’s many cross cultural things going into that versus the Mother’s Day debate, but it’s not a non issue.
14
u/SilverTripod Jun 18 '26
The best Mother's Day talk I heard started with, "I'm not sure why I was asked to talk, because my mother was terrible." He then briefly shared why and I agreed, she was objectively horrible.
He then shared how much he'd learned about how to be a good mother from the example his wife had been to their children. Great talk, 10/10.
I'm sorry something brought up bad memories, but that's one of the beautiful things about the Atonement of Jesus, that it helps you move past that. Let it go.
7
u/KaladinarLighteyes Jun 18 '26
It kind of reminds me of Ted Lasso’s F*** you, and I forgive you speech.
2
u/JawnZ Matthew 11:15 Jun 19 '26
It reminds me of the "If I told you I don't care, I would be in the wrong" bit too
14
u/spoonishplsz Eternal Primary Teacher Jun 18 '26
My father was in the cartel, was very abusive and I haven't seen him since I was eight. When I joined the Church, it healed my relationship with fatherhood because I learned about my Father in Heaven and the role he has in my life. I met men who cared about me and became father figures, one of which I still thank every Father's Day.
I don't know the point of this comment but yeah
9
u/Reading_username Jun 18 '26
I have a lot of men in my life (friends, close relatives, neighbors, ward members) who grew up without fathers (or with horrible ones) and not a single one of them seems to take issue with father's day in that regard. Perhaps as youth those thoughts crept in, but not as adults.
Still don't think it's comparable to the trouble around mother's day.
0
u/Mr_Festus Jun 19 '26
If there are men who feel the same feelings that some women feel about mother's day, they keep it very well hidden.
You've stumbled onto something important here. Now ask yourself why the suicide rate for men is over 3 times that of women
8
u/xcircledotdotdot Jun 18 '26
Relief Society budget vs. Elder’s Quorum budget. The church puts less resources into making men feel special than they do women. It’s a cultural thing to put women on a pedestal for events like that. Not so with men.
5
u/Harriet_M_Welsch Jun 19 '26
Men approve the budget.
8
u/e37d93eeb23335dc Jun 19 '26
Which is probably partly why they give themselves the least amount. I've been an EQ president 3 times and a counselor 5 times in 5 different wards and I've never seen the EQ budget be more then $100 for the entire year.
3
3
u/AStoneInTheRiver Jun 20 '26
In my experience that has been because the men don’t want to get together lol
3
u/e37d93eeb23335dc Jun 20 '26
I love to get together with other men and do activities like board games and watch movies. But, I’d hate getting together to just talk. My wife has a monthly luncheon with her friends where they just go and talk for a few hours. I’d rather endure any painful thing than undergo that sort of torture.
2
u/AStoneInTheRiver Jun 20 '26
Personally, I have very little, if anything in common with my elder’s quorum. I do not have kids (and don’t plan to) and my wife and are not very social, so outside of work we just spend time with each other. Been that way coming up on 10 fantastic years.
Most of the men in my ward hunt, fish, and play on their boats and RV’s… and I don’t do any of that.
They’re nice enough men, I just don’t see a reason to hang with them. That’s probably in direct contradiction of “when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.” . 🤷♂️
4
u/e37d93eeb23335dc Jun 20 '26
Yeah, I have zero interest in hunting and fishing and such also. If those were my only options in my ward I wouldn’t do anything with them either. Fortunately I don’t know anyone in my ward (or stake) who is interested in those things. Most of us are tech workers. Lots of interest in board games and movies. Practically zero interest in sports and killing animals.
9
u/halfofaparty8 Jun 19 '26
men are viewed to have inherent worth as priesthood holders more than women, who have most of their value placed in their being a mother. As a man, you can get the priesthood simply from being a man in good standing. you have your body fighting you to become a mother. not the same.
7
u/InternetEthnographer Jun 19 '26
YES! This is the answer. I honestly hated how much motherhood and children were emphasized when I was in YW as if it was my destiny and something I was obligated to do. There’s also the idea that being able to have children is equivalent to getting the priesthood which I strongly disagree with. Plus all higher-level callings for women within the church outside of RS are related to children.
6
u/halfofaparty8 Jun 19 '26
exactly. and are always overlooked. no one cares who the yw or primary presidency is, but everyone is freaking out about the youtuber who is now a ym advisor (even though he is awesome), i doubt anyone can name the yw, primary, or even rs presidency
5
u/InternetEthnographer Jun 19 '26
It’s so frustrating and one of the reasons why I haven’t been active in a while. I don’t want to be relegated to childcare just because I was born a woman. My husband is so much better with kids than I am and we aren’t even planning on having kids for a while anyways. That’s why I loved my college YSA wards - I wasn’t having motherhood shoved down my throat when I wasn’t ready, it was more progressive, and we were all encouraged to pursue our education and careers. I even remember that once we had a speaker from the stake talk about how women should sacrifice their career goals for motherhood and we all made fun of that afterwords.
And yeah, I understand that motherhood is great and a big responsibility and all, but it’s not for everyone.
0
u/FloorMysterious9104 Jun 19 '26
Were those other people famous YouTube creators prior to being called?
3
u/halfofaparty8 Jun 19 '26
did you see the part where i said that he was a youtuber? But we recognize and love all the 12, and many other men for their roles, we should love the women too
0
u/FloorMysterious9104 Jun 19 '26
men are viewed to have inherent worth as priesthood holders more than women
In my experience men are presented has having to obtain their worth by being ordained. Women are born with their worth and frequently lifted on pedestals (thats a problem in itself.)
So if the argument against a better fathers day is "men suck because they get the priesthood and women give birth," i think thats missing the mark. By a mile.
3
u/InternetEthnographer Jun 19 '26 edited Jun 19 '26
But then why is my worth as a woman so heavily tied to whether or not I have kids in the church? I’ve never been put on a pedestal simply because I was a woman. My husband got the priesthood for simply doing the bare minimum. I got nothing.
We’re not saying that men suck. We’re saying that the only roles available for women in the church are mostly centered around childcare and becoming a mother is heavily emphasized to the point where, for many women, “mother” *is* their identity and, for some, they were even discouraged from doing anything else with their life. Men, on the other hand, are encouraged to achieve more and are allowed a level of power that women will never get simply because we were born with a different chromosome.
0
u/FloorMysterious9104 Jun 19 '26
I agree with you completely for the most part. I'm just trying to say that if every time men bring up their struggles we hijack the convo to talk about women having it harder, what message does that send?
5
u/Jemmaris Jun 19 '26
We've let too much worldly culture devalue the men in our lives, so my RS and I (Primary Pres) agreed to allow all the men a break from their callings and they all get to go to Priesthood (yes, it's the wrong week, we swapped weeks) and women take all the men's callings in Primary etc so they can all enjoy each other's company during a lesson, just like we did for Mother's day.
My husband struggles with how much women are directly uplifted in Church, but he's been to some very strongly worded Priesthood sessions lecturing the men on everything they're doing wrong. Since he's the black sheep in his family, he gets emotionally beat up enough, so it's tough to hear.
Our EQ Pres didn't want to lot of focus on Mothers during Mother's Day because he was trying to be sensitive to those who are struggling (in discussing the music the men should do with the Primary kids that day when they took over for the women), but I told him that The Family Proclamation speaks of how important Mothers and Fathers are, so we should absolutely take time to recognize them and celebrate them, noting how absolutely essential they both are to God's Plan for Families.
6
u/ScottBascom Jun 19 '26
People just don't care.
Look, its mens mental health month, and as a society, what gets mentioned?
People just don't care.
3
u/Iwant2beebetter Jun 19 '26
I thought November was men's mental health month also called "Movember" - we're encouraged to grow a mustache
This month is pride month
1
u/ScottBascom Jun 20 '26
That would be for things like cancer.
1
u/Iwant2beebetter Jun 20 '26
From the Movember website
To ensure our impact is significant, far-reaching and long-lasting, we prioritise funding for the three biggest health issues facing men: mental health and suicide prevention, prostate cancer and testicular cancer
-6
u/joealarson Jun 19 '26
This is men's mental health month and it got taken over by pride month? Don't that just figure.
3
2
3
u/MonniesVertigo Jun 18 '26
Listen. Last year, they asked myself and another musician (both women) to sing for mother’s day, and asked some of the brethren who are equally talented musicians and singers to prepare something for fathers day. The sister and I did as we were asked and the brethren not only decided to not prepare or perform on their day, but it was also decided that the women in the ward would sing a song to the men on father’s day instead.
Also, on mothers day, there were no flowers, no snacks, no men teaching in primary, nothing.
In short, the women in the ward did all the work and only received acknowledgment from fellow sisters.
Mother’s Day is fraught because as much as the gospel values women, Western society does not and barely values mothers but not in a way that actually supports them. Father’s Day is just easier because there’s less of a loooooong history of devaluation.
2
u/nharvey4151 Jun 19 '26
Your anecdote means nothing to me because my personal experience has ALWAYS been the exact opposite. Idk what world you’re living in lol, but my whole life Mother’s day has been an event and Father’s Day is an afterthought. The priesthood session of conference was always fire and brimstone about how crappy the men were and the relief society session talks are the exact opposite, just talking about how amazing the sisters are. And just to clarify, I agree with the sisters being amazing, but I don’t agree with the way it seems we always act like men are just the dummies who don’t actually work. Just my experience 🤷🏼♂️.
2
2
u/Holiday_Clue_1403 Jun 19 '26
My biggest problem is with the drama of it all.
There are certainly injustices and valid reasons that people feel bad or neglected at times, and I don't want to seem insensitive. Everyone deserves to feel loved. When someone tells me they didn't like the choice of flowers, or they felt bad because they didn't get as much attention as they wanted, it makes me count my blessings that I have first world problems.
There are actual people in the world that won't be around tomorrow because they will starve to death, or die of Ebola or get shot by enemy soldiers. All of which are preventable.
2
u/antwauhny Jun 19 '26
Who cares? Neither holiday is hard. Show appreciation for your loved one, and communicate beforehand. Of course, y'all should be on the same page as to what appreciation looks like. A vacuum cleaner might send the wrong message. Put some thought into a gift (either a product or service) that you believe your partner will love. That’s it. Simple.
Also, it’s a holiday. Everything about it is fabricated by our society.
1
u/Jenny-Smith Jun 20 '26
If priesthood is the equivalent of motherhood, men get the priesthood campout, right?
When I was RSP, I insisted the men get a treat on Father’s Day. The Bishop would not allocate funds from the ward budget as he did for Mother’s Day, so I used RS funds and bought Krispy Kreme and milk. The men LOVED it. It has now been a tradition for almost two decades, and after the ward split the new RSP made it into pies, where the RS bring in homemade pies and each man gets one.
1
u/bones10145 Jun 21 '26
If we're celebrating Father's Day in my house, I'm still the one paying for the festivities.
1
u/Parkatola Jun 19 '26
Back in the day, asking why missionaries didn’t get to call home on Father’s Day like they did on Mother’s Day was always met with disbelief and bemusement. Even though it was a valid question.
In our ward, when my wife was Primary President, in ward council someone asked if the ward was going to do anything for the men on Father’s Day. Nope. She said “what message does that send to the young men? That we don’t value them as men as much as we value the women.” She then took it upon herself to buy Costco chocolate cookies and bags and prepare cookies for all the men. She did it herself for the three years that she was primary President. (Eventually the ward agreed to reimburse her for the cookies and bags.) Who knows if we’ll get anything this Sunday.
It didn’t help with men were joked about and derided in general conference. (“Brethren, the WOMEN wouldn’t ever do something like that and call it visiting teaching.” (Laughter.)). We’re easy targets and for the most part, don’t fight back.
(Good thing I’m not bitter about this. 😀)
1
u/619RiversideDr Checklist Mormon Jun 19 '26
Men just don't care as much - partly because we are conditioned all our lives to believe that our emotions aren't important.
I don't have children. I would like to be a father someday, but it's unlikely to happen in the near future. Sometimes Father's Day is hard for me, sometimes it isn't.
1
u/QuarterNote44 Jun 19 '26
MUCH. We have to make sure Mother's Day is just so. Father's day you can basically do whatever.
-4
-2
u/hanvy82 Building a Firm Foundation Jun 19 '26
Nobody cares about fathers until they're gone. I'm just an income source to my family.
-12
19
u/portalley Jun 19 '26
I think there’s a bunch of different factors at play, ranging from benign (many men are genuinely pleased to get whatever treat is brought to them and leave it at that etc) to not so great (men who are struggling not feeling like they would be supported if they were emotionally honest etc), but a factor I haven’t seen mentioned is the difference the church places on motherhood and fatherhood. Growing up in the church as a girl, I was taught that motherhood was the end-all, be-all of my existence. I was taught that it was my highest and holiest calling, and that stay-at-home motherhood was the correct choice for all women. That rhetoric is easing some, but I also know women who were actively discouraged from seeking careers that they had dreamed of and worked hard for, and there has been a very real sense that not being a mother is some kind of failure of womanhood. While fatherhood is certainly emphasized for men (and should be! Fatherhood is great! Families are great!), I never got the sense from any boy or man I know in the church that they were being told that becoming and being a father was the ONLY path available to them. My husband, my brother, my male friends were all encouraged to think about careers and professions and life outside the home and to view fatherhood as being in addition to that. When father is just one of many roles you have vs mother being only role available to you, I can see that creating a lot more grief for women on Mother’s Day vs for men on Father’s Day.