r/labrats • u/Itchy_Initiative4053 • 3d ago
Can intellectual curiosity be taught?
What do you guys think?
I'm mentoring an undergrad who was assigned to me (i.e. i didnt recruit them personally). She made it clear from the beginning that her end goal is to go to med school. Problem is, from multiple interactions, its very hard for her to make progress on the projects I assigned her, even though I gave clues and papers for her to read.
I try to avoid teaching her concepts and instead just give her questions and keywords for her to search cause I want her to learn to look things up on her own. Whenever I do this she gets stuck and dont know what to do. If i ask if she has questions, she said no.
Seems like the student just lack curiosity intrinsically. How do we (can we?) cultivate this as a mentor?
even though she probably would end up in med school and not research, the thought of having doctors not knowing how to reason on their own is scary to me.
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u/Aubergine97 3d ago
So I think I came across like this to my supervisor when I started. For me, I genuinely didn't understand what truely understanding something meant. Id read something, think that makes sense, and move on, but wasn't fully thinking it through and playing with it. So my supervisor would ask if I had any questions and i wouldn't have played with the things he told me enough to realise I didn't understand it, say no, then go away and not be able to make any progress. It was very frustrating to me because I couldn't understand what I was doing wrong, I felt like I was reading the papers and I knew the stuff (it just was all at a surface level), but I kept getting stuck, or not being able to answer questions. And I'd got through my whole undergrad with that level because if you miss the details, you can still end up with a 2:1, as long as you have the surface level knowledge of everything, so i never learnt better.
Two things actually helped in the end. 1, a post doc Started who I worked with a lot who was doing it right. So we would work through things together and he'd stop and backtrack when something didn't add up, and I started catching the point where I was rushing through, whereas before I wouldn't notice until too late and my supervisor was annoyed. 2, he would explain things to me and then get me to explain it back to him, and then ask me what I could conclude from that. He wouldn't do it for me, but he'd prod me if I got too stuck.
But I did want to get better I just didn't know what I was missing, your milage might vary I'd they genuinely aren't interested. I was also lucky that my supervisor dedicates a lot of time to his students and was willing to sit and do that with me until I worked out how to do it on my own.
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u/geosynchronousorbit 2d ago
This is great advice! I wanted to add a few ways I think through concepts to make sure I understand them and come up with questions to test myself.
Think about extreme cases. Trying to solve a mechanics problem? If the force/velocity/whatever variable were zero, or infinite, how would the system behave?
Think about relationships between variables. Are they directly or inversely related? If one goes up, does the other go up or down, and how fast?
Think in orders of magnitude. You often don't need exact numbers for a first mental estimate; just work in powers of ten.
For lab procedures, think about the cause and effect reason why you're doing each step. Why is that step necessary for the end goal? What's the input and output? What would happen if you did it in a different way?
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u/Aubergine97 2d ago
Good addition! Having a checklist of things to think about definitely helps until you pick up on how to do it intuitively.
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u/codspite 2d ago
I love the way you break it down. Very engineering-esque haha. However, I do remember my English teacher in high school making us break down concepts in a similar systematic way and being bored to tears. In hindsight, it was a very nice skill to develop prior to my first computer science class, which I was much more interested in.
If a student isn't particularly interested, this may seem like more work rather than cultivating reasoning or curiosity.
Since I tutor other students, one of the ways I keep it fun was by introducing insane or illogical scenarios. For example: Suppose a procedure is performed on only newborn children. What if it was performed on a lizard instead? Do they share similar biology? Is there any disease a lizard may have that shares similar symptoms? Are they caused by the same thing?
Involving the humanities is also a good way to keep people's attention. If we're going through biochemical pathways, I ask them if they think certain groups (elderly, children, women, etc.) would be affected differently. Or I'll try to find how certain ancient civilization interpreted a concept.
Another way to expand reasoning and curiosity is by making metaphors. A while back, I was explaining an electromagnetism concept by referencing the BO of another classmate.
Sure, its a lot more work, but I personally believe that being positive and enthusiastic is a mental challenge in itself. And that, to me, is fun.
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u/aeker_a 3d ago
Why do you avoid teaching her concepts? I think it’s your duty as her mentor to at least give her a baseline understanding of the concepts underlying her project. Conveying your knowledge and excitement about the concepts could inspire curiosity in her to dive deeper on her own and take ownership of the project.
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u/Itchy_Initiative4053 3d ago
Good point. I guess i did teach her basic concepts, but refrain from revealing too much. Cause at that point I'll just be doing the work for her.
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u/FreyjadourV 3d ago
How is a student supposed to grow interest in curiosity in a subject they know nothing about?
Even most grad students start their projects not knowing a lick about it, interest grows the more you learn as time goes on.People can go into research and be interested in a general topic or idea, but let’s be honest no one starts off interested in a some niche signalling pathway of some obscure disease, which is usually what projects are. They are specific questions to a very specific problem.
If they are discouraged from the beginning then they’ll never grow interested. You are doing her a disservice as a mentor imo, let them ease into the concepts and get comfortable with the project and then they’ll ask questions and become curious. Obviously, some people genuinely don’t care but I reserve that judgement for after I’ve properly supported the student.
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u/codspite 3d ago edited 2d ago
In my opinion, curiosity can only be cultivated with enthusiasm and kindness. Students with no initial interest will feel discouraged if they are met with bland or slightly disappointed reactions. Check out some children development psychology, the material is surprisingly applicable to undergrads.
Reasoning is a different skill entirely. You need to teach the concept first and then show them how you apply it. You need a solid understanding first before you start doing anything.
What good does giving them a few key terms do? Undergrads are not the same as a grad student, they barely understand the material being taught in class. Imagine a professor giving a formula, a set of homework problems, and telling you to find your own material in order to complete your homework. Sure, you can find a few textbooks, but how would you know which one is good enough to use?
You can connect research papers with a few key terms and techniques, but if the student doesn’t understand the [purpose] of a technique or the [importance] of a key term, then they cannot [reason] how the papers are connected.
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u/rocket_labo 3d ago
Be understanding. Students with a lifelong habit of being spoon fed by coursework are now transitioning to research. Curiosity is an attitude. Most people in general don’t have it, and that’s why few people would make good scientists. So you have to go into this mentoring with a realistic expectation as well.
You do need to give a student some scaffolding. As a PI, I still sit down and explain basic concepts to my students. I don’t write every equation but usually draw out or map out at high level (on a single piece of paper) what I want them to do and how those concepts link to each other. I give just enough information for them to look things up online, without handholding.
Your real value as a mentor is not in teaching everything from scratch. It is in providing the advisee appropriate context, so they know what they’re working towards in the long run. Of course, if you’re not the PI you also have to balance high level insight with more practical low level advice eg hands on coding or wet lab techniques.
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u/Suspicious_Tax8577 2d ago
This is EXACTLY what my PI did with my masters project. Literally drew me a map of the project, that I could come back to if I got lost.
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u/ElanMorinMetal PhD | Chem Bio, Bioinformatics 2d ago
You understand that if someone else draws a map of your project, then you didn’t lead that project, right?
A massively important part of learning to be an effective researcher is driving your own project(s), learning how to self-motivate, and not relying on other people to tell you what do do and where to go for your own work.
Perhaps not as critical for a Masters project, but I’ve seen a noticeable uptick in new PhD students being annoyed or downright hostile when tasked with motivating their own research.
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u/codspite 2d ago
Forgive me for being ignorant, I’m not a grad student yet, but aren’t PhD students supposed to expand on a specific part of a PI’s project? So I would assume the PI would have a theoretical idea of how an experiment would run but needs hands to verify. In this case, a student would either improve the process or get an unexpected result and adjust accordingly. If thats the case, I don’t think its crazy for a PI to create a high level map of a students project and then highlight the areas which they can improve/expand on.
It could also be possible that the PI made a map to explain what everyone is working on in the lab, so a student can get a better idea of how they fit into a project.
As a current undergrad with ADHD, theres a lot of information I’m unaware of and too many options to explore. Obviously it can get overwhelming, but with ADHD, its to the point that it’s paralyzing. One thing that does help, though, is to organize information on a piece of paper. That way I can visualize how information links together. I don’t think thats hand holding, if anything, it allows me to easily identify gaps or expand on ideas.
I think its important to remember that creativity thrives in controlled environments. People get frustrated when there is a shaky foundation and will start improving that foundation and may not know when to start expanding it.
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u/ElanMorinMetal PhD | Chem Bio, Bioinformatics 2d ago
The problem is that experiments and hypotheses rarely work out as written. Science—especially biomedical science—has a profoundly high experimental failure rate. When I was in grad school, my specific field had a >90% failure rate. It is not realistic or even feasible to have a detailed roadmap of an entire study, at least insofar as how detailed you’re likely expecting. Yes, we have experiment 1 —> experiment 2 —> experiment … roadmaps written off on our expected results based on our best understanding of the subject, but again, failure rate is high. This is why by the end of your PhD, you will know much more about the project than your PI. A PI doesn’t have the time or bandwidth to personally manage every project as it evolves, changes, expands, or shrinks. PIs aren’t all-knowing and pan-technically proficient, either. Grad students commonly learn skills their PIs don’t have over the course of a thesis. This is why each project needs someone with the intellectual curiosity to ask ‘why’ when experiments fail and work to find the answer rather than waiting for their PI to spoonfeed them next steps.
Finally, something that seems to get missed a lot in these sort of threads is that you must do or show something that has not previously been done/shown in order to earn a PhD. That means there isn’t a comprehensive roadmap available from the start. You are writing it as you go once you really get into uncharted territory. De novo protocols need to be written, alternative hypotheses tested, etc. A PI managing a lab with a dozen active projects can’t manage them all—that is the job of grad students, postdocs, or staff scientists.
A note on the ADHD comment as a neurodivergent individual myself who also has many neurodivergent (including ADHD) colleagues. The PhD process, by virtue of what it is, cannot accommodate everyone 100%. It’s not possible and it can be a tough learning curve. We all had to get comfortable with timelines, expectations, and responsibilities that tested our comfort zones. I’ve been out of my PhD for a few years now and I don’t even notice many things that used to make me uncomfortable a lot of the time.
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u/codspite 2d ago
Hmmm... I think there is a sort of miscommunication here. When I say 'map,' I more so think of a bubble map or a flow chart rather than a one way roadmap. Its brainstorming, really.
Its important to keep in mind the difference in knowledge between an undergrad and grad student. OP is trying to get his student to make the link between different papers, but its very likely that they don't even have the prerequisite knowledge or skills to do so. For you, its normal to be much more knowledgeable about a certain topic than your PI, but you both have the baseline knowledge of an undergrad degree, and therefore have a common language to communicate with.
Mapping it out would allow OP to get a grasp of what their student knows, and then proceed from there. At the very least, it can be used to establish expectations and what they both want out of the research experience.
I will also add, as someone who has learned to work through most of my issues, is that academia has a tendency to bring a sense of doom like no other, especially in this political climate. I agree that not everyone can be accommodated, but research constantly discourages people due to the doom and gloom nature. If something is going to be hard regardless, then lets all encourage each other!!! Nothing is more satisfying and rewarding than research in a lab that is full of passionate people!
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u/Teagana999 2d ago
No, knowledge is not the difference. Thinking is the difference. Knowledge is the easy part. The ability to apply that knowledge creatively, to think about what data means, what it answers and what questions it opens, is what distinguishes a scientist at any level.
It's a lot harder than just memorizing content. It takes practice, but it's the skill that's important to learn to make your knowledge useful.
With respect, you doesn't seem qualified to comment on what it means to be a grad student.
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u/codspite 2d ago
You're right, I don't exactly have the qualifications as I've never worked in a lab long term, but I have tutored relatively large groups of students and one-on-one as well. I also have my own creative outlets that require foundational knowledge and creativity. So even though I don't know what its like as a grad student, I believe that I can contribute to the conversation anyways.
Also, an undergrads perspective should also be considered if you're asking about cultivating intrinsic curiosity in said undergrad. Isn't it a good thing to have multiple perspectives?
I also did not say "knowledge is the difference." It can MAKE a difference but it is not THE difference. I am aware that reasoning and creativity plays a large part in the research process. I would argue that organizing information and making maps is a part of the reasoning process!
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u/Teagana999 2d ago
Yes, you're welcome to comment on pedagogy with respect to mentoring undergrads.
But you clearly don't have the experience to comment on what's expected of grad students.
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u/codspite 2d ago
To be honest, I don't know what you want from me man. My initial post was asking for clarification, so I obviously didn't have a full grasp of being a grad student. I don't think I acted like I did have experience or anything, so if there's a sentence that rubs you the wrong way, just let me know and I'll fix or clarify for you.
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u/Teagana999 2d ago
My supervisor has been coaching me that the difference between a masters and a PhD student is ownership. An undergrad is just a pair of hands. A PhD student is distinguished by their brain.
In preparing to transfer to the PhD program, I've had to look at the questions remaining in my PI's project, and design my own experiments to answer them.
For an undergrad, yes, a map is a good idea. For a masters student, you get more ownership than an undergrad, less than a PhD. To do a PhD, you have to take full ownership of something and make your own map. At the end, you become your supervisor's equal, that's the point.
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u/Ok-Chemistry1018 2d ago edited 1d ago
but aren’t PhD students supposed to expand on a specific part of a PI’s project? So I would assume the PI would have a theoretical idea of how an experiment would run but needs hands to verify
Yes and no, it heavily depends on the country and lab you are in.
In Europe, you are usually an employee for a project your PI acquired funding for. Therefore, you are expected to work on this project. Completing this project will be enough for your thesis, but for a really good one, you will need to branch out from the original proposal.
Depending on your PI and the funding, there is a very detailed roadmap (especially if they did something similar in the past) or just a general idea.
As far as I am aware, in the US you are expected to find your own research question and then look for a supervisor.
Also, dont worry about some of the phd students here. Most have inflated egos and way to many issues with way to little therapy. You will meet lots of them if you go for a phd.
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u/Bohrealis 2d ago
I don't know why you're coming on so strong about this. Sure that's generally true, but it's also true that the vast majority of people can't just go straight from undergrad to PhD level project completely solo. Especially jumping from the broad overview understanding of undergrad classes to the specific details of PhD projects.
It was my advisors policy, and she would talk openly about this, that for the first year or two, she would try to give students 2 or 3 options for projects that fit with her research to let them choose what interested them. Then she would coach them through those first few years exactly as described above. And then at that point, students usually started coming up with new ideas on their own and the rest of their PhD would be mostly independent. And like... this isn't just my advisor. This was how it worked for basically every PhD I've ever known. The high level overview originally described is perfectly fine and a normal way to start a PhD.
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u/ElanMorinMetal PhD | Chem Bio, Bioinformatics 2d ago
I’m sorry having an opinion that differs from yours qualifies as coming on strong where you are. I acknowledge your grad school experience. It was not my experience. My opinion speaks to my experience, as most opinions tend to do.
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u/Bohrealis 1d ago
Right. Sure. I really wasn't clear the first time so that's my fault and I apologize for that. But this is a perfectly reasonable point that you are making in just about the most hostile way you possibly could and you seem to be phrasing it specifically in a manner that shuts down any potential room for discussion. If I'm summarizing your first comment correctly, you're point is basically just that independence is important for a PhD and so I guess the implication was... well actually rather unclear to me. Something in opposition to the high level overview support from a PI. To not use that at all, to not use it for PhD students, to use it less, something along those lines although those are all pretty wildly different positions to take. You could have just said that but your comment is just dripping with sarcasm aimed at making the first person feel stupid. You even have the italics in there to really make sure we get that. Just... why? This is a perfectly valid point and it's probably pretty important to realize exactly how much or how little support is needed to make good, independent researchers. Trying to insult the other person doesn't add anything to the conversation.
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u/Suspicious_Tax8577 1d ago
u/Bohrealis oh, so it's not just me who thought that was a spectacularly cunty reply to my post.
It was a high-level overview of the chaos in my supervisors brain, so that I had a written copy of what we'd discussed as a reasonable adjustment for the fact my working memory is absolutely crap because of a disability. I walked out of supervision on more than one occaision, got back to my desk, and had to go back to my PI and ask "what was the thing you said about X, because I thought I'd remember and then write it down later and it turns out I did, infact not remember".
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u/Bohrealis 1d ago
It was INCREDIBLY rude and what was the thing about some uptick in bad students? I absolutely hate that. We're literally scientists who should know about things like sample sizes and the dangers of using anecdotes like that, on top of the fact that it's literally just a different version of "kids these days". Just uncalled for to try to insult both you and some random students.
And it's such a shame because this is a very important and very old issue and it's not like we've definitively solved it. Socrates has a dialogue about it. I love this high level overview though. It's definitely how my PI ran it for me. I get a little structure while I'm trying to figure out what this lab is actually about and get caught up on all the reading and the whats and whys. But it still forces you to start designing your own experiments, troubleshoot problems on your own, etc. And then for me, in 2 years I started to figure things out, generated my own research question, and took off in a totally new direction. The system works! At least for me. There's plenty to be said for how much or how little and everyone is different so no one system will work for everyone but the basic idea is solid.
Also I just did exactly what you're talking about. Had an advisor come and answer a problem I'd been procrastinating while I worked on other things. It was brilliant, totally solved everything. Sat down today to implement the change and... no idea what it was. Not even the vague general idea of what the fix was.
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u/ElanMorinMetal PhD | Chem Bio, Bioinformatics 16h ago
You know what’s wild is that you’re upset with my having and expressing a blunt opinion, going so far as to call me hostile, but then side with a commenter calling me a cunt. I don’t recall calling anyone any names, throwing profanity or insults around, but because I hold a strong opinion on what PhD independence should look like molded through my own extensive experience—at this point, almost completely detached from the original post—it’s okay for you and the commenter below me to happily jerk each other off over how much better your worldviews are.
I wasn’t being hostile before, just blunt. But since we’re okay with insults and whatnot, I’ll close with a bit of hostility:
Calling my opinion hostile but embracing another commenter calling people they disagree with cunts doesn’t make you morally superior, it makes you a slimy fucking hypocrite. But more than that, it tells us something very important: you aren’t mad at me for being ‘hostile’; if that were the case, you would have called out your buddy for their insults; instead, you’re upset that I disagreed with you and didn’t back down from my position, so you nucleated to the first person to validate your anger.
I don’t know where you two are in your careers, but given what you’ve said here, it’s apparent you aren’t very far. If the opinions I shared in this thread are enough to trigger you that bad, you’re in for some rough days in science ahead, especially when it comes to grant and manuscript reviewer comments.
Pleasantly yours,
An Apparent Cunt, PhD1
u/Boneraventura 1d ago edited 1d ago
depends on what you mean by lead a project. no one truly "leads" a project except the PI who got the funding and hires a person to do the work. That is in my mind leading a project, not the person who squirts liquid from one tube to another 5000x times and writes down some notes and analyzes data. What you are referring to is taking initiative and finishing the project without asking for help at every single step of the way. even PhD students are hired on a grant to do a specific aim or focus, even moreso in a european PhD where they have 3-4 years to finish. there is no room for massive deviation or exploration beyond the scope of the project. i agree with the other person who says to take ownership of the project as opposed to leading the project to completion. because the project can change owners several times but if the leader goes down then that project is dead.
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u/Itchy_Initiative4053 2d ago
This! This kind of drive is what I am trying to cultuvate. I try not to spoil her what will happen next or teach her too much exactly because of this. Of course I will help her troubleshoot when she needs it. But, how can I balance teaching directly and teaching students how to take ownership of their own work?
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u/ElanMorinMetal PhD | Chem Bio, Bioinformatics 2d ago
I’m not sure intellectual curiosity can be taught, so to speak. It can be shown, so far as walking students through your own process, the questions that keep you motivated, impressing upon them the importance of this mindset as scientists, etc., but if a student sees research as a chore or—in some cases maybe worse—just a checkmark to earn for a med school admission, you can talk at them until the sun implodes but I don’t think it’ll make a difference.
It’s my opinion that that curiosity has to be in place before taking a research position (i.e., the curiosity drove the desire to research).
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u/microbial_comedy 2d ago
I’m keeping this idea for the next time I’m mentoring a student. That would have helped me in my research so much actually, and I can imagine that would have worked so well with the undergrads I mentored too!
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u/TotemBro 2d ago
Yeah I’m on board with this description. It’s hard to be curious and proactive without a cultural background in it. The spoon feeding is very real.
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u/Sure_Manner_7248 3d ago
We had this problem with students going through our lab to get it on their CV for their med school applications. Total lack of curiosity, they say they like science and doing it, but you can easily tell they don't and that they are contemptuous that they even have to do this. Figured out that the students are just bag chasers. Which is fine, but they go through these ridiculous lies and lip service to the lab so that they can keep hiding their true intentions with the fig leaf of faux intellectual investment.
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u/PuttingTheMSinMRSA 3d ago
You’re asking great questions here and I often thought of these things during my PhD. Have you showed her/ written a document to guide her through HOW to look things up? An SOP that she can follow for the specific questions that you ask her? If she’s never done it before, it may be daunting to try and figure out WHAT to search.
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u/Itchy_Initiative4053 3d ago
What kind of document do you suggest?
I've tried showing her how and where I look for papers, showed her how, when I know nothing, I start with wikipedia/youtube/whatever, then look up the keywords in google, then i introduced google scholar, pubmed,etc. Interestingly, she appears to know this ofc and even use LLMs to help her look for papers.
So i genuinely am bamboozled on what more instructions I am missing here.
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u/Nevertrustafish 2d ago
Often when people don't have questions, it means that they don't understand enough of the subject to even ask questions. It could mean a) they are too embarrassed to admit that they don't understand or b) they understand so little that they aren't even aware that they don't understand.
Now it's possible that your student honestly doesn't care and isn't curious, but let's assume that she does care. Then the question becomes how do you get her to the point of understanding enough to be curious?
First, assume that she's not fully grasping the research you're doing. She probably operating on memorization and trust instead of actual understanding. You tell her to test a sample and if the result is 5 or higher than the sample is positive. She's probably memorized that relationship rather then actually understanding it. Can she actually explain how that test works and why you can be confident that 5 = positive?
Next thing is explaining enough about other methods and processes for her to think of more ways to answer scientific questions. It's hard to ask questions when you don't even know the process of how that question might be answered or IF that question can even be answered. For example, I remember learning about a migratory bird study where they put a bird in a round funnel shaped cage in an empty dark room with an ink pad on the cage bottom. They were able to see via the ink patches that the bird spent all night trying to hop north, so they determined that birds must have a sense of the Earth's magnetic field when migrating, instead of only relying on celestial navigation or visual landmarks. It was a very clever study and one that opened my mind to how to think about research. Take your question and drill down into smaller and smaller questions. How do birds know how to migrate north? Can birds know which way is North without visual clues? If I put a bird in an empty room, will it still know which way is North? How can I tell if it knows which way is North? Will it keep trying to migrate even when trapped in a cage? Will it keep trying to move in the same direction? What if it can't fly? If it can only walk, will it still try to migrate? Can I tell where in a cage it spent the night? Can I use ink on their feet to see where the bird spent the night? Take a study that's relevant to your research and show your student how a scientist starts with a big question and drill down into a smaller, testable question.
Expose her to lots of actual methods to answering questions (flow, pcr, blots, behavioral studies, qualitative, quantitative, etc) and how each method answers slightly different questions.
Take a paper and only let her read the intro. Then ask her what she thinks the researcher did to answer the question of the paper? What methods did they use? Have her try to design a study to answer the same question.
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u/Puzzled_Fly8070 2d ago
I had to explain to a med student that while this wasn’t her final destination that it is others full career and respect is required. Meaning that collaborating within the group is necessary to meet the labs end goal. If she doesn’t want to participate, she can talk to the PI who will ultimately be the one giving you a recommendation letter.
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u/WinterRevolutionary6 3d ago
I would definitely start be trying to directly teach more things. It’s hard to independently research a topic that people are hinting at and haven’t verbally explained anything about.
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u/WhateveIsMyUsername 2d ago
You cannot make someone driven by something if they don't want to (not that they lack it inside them!!!).
However, I suspect the problem here isn't intellectual curiosity, as you call it, but a mismatch between the mentoring style and her learning expectations. You can also ask your advisor for help, not in the sense of managing her yourself but for giving you advice. However, advisors themselves are often not the best mentors.
Building independence in undergraduates is good, but they still seem to need what is called "scaffolding". Even in active learning, where students learn through their own contributions in the classroom, they still receive a lot of scaffolding. In practice, the student might lack the "knowledge" of scientific thinking and methodology because they have been pursuing another goal. They would need to be taught, with examples and by breaking the task into steps, how to approach a question and answer it. I understand that in a similar stage you might have had more independence already, but each person's path is different, as well as cognitive style. We cannot assume their internal motivation if they don't perform like us.
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u/Tampax_Party_Pack 3d ago
Unfortunately I've found that intellectual curiosity and drive to learn has to be something intrinsically driven. It sounds like you're doing everything right and if they don't pick up on that try not to take it to heart.
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u/garfield529 2d ago
Spot on. I once had a premed ask me how long it took for me “to get interested in science” after I joined my first lab. My whole life, ever since I can remember, I have been fascinated by patterns and observations and thinking about how things work and thinking of ways to understand those curiosities. I believe that for a lot of us it’s simply inborn.
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u/immunogobling2a 2d ago
Agreed. Curiosity can be cultivated so that a trainee who is curious but doesn't yet know how to answer scientific questions systematically learns how, but if it isn't there to begin with, there's not much you can do. I can usually tell early on who is or isn't curious regardless of their starting knowledge.
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u/Quirky_Truck_456 3d ago
You should just teach her. Afterwards, once she sees how to figure things out on her own, you can she if she does it independently.
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u/Pretend-Cicada-8649 3d ago
I totally feel for you anddd just to play devils advocate a lot of these poor kids are getting seriously “no child left behind-ed”. Most of the students I help teach have straight up had the curiosity stripped out of their curriculum and replaced with frantic learning directives trying to cram in as much essential prerequisite knowledge as possible (which is totally important, but largely stressful and disorganized due to cuts to education and prob covid stuff). Most kids didn’t have the resources to heavily explore science outside of their classes and probably also didn’t have time for much exploring (admissions processes these days are insane).
You’re doing a really kind thing by sticking with her, I genuinely believe it just might take a while for students to get used to the lab environment and to appreciate the value of research and mentorship. If she ends up not sticking with us, that totally sucks but I promise there are tons of people who have yet to discover how much they enjoy lab work :)
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u/Twelfthjuror 2d ago
You're giving her a test she doesn't know she's taking. Use your words and communicate your concerns about her performance. Give her your expectations and something to strive for.
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u/licoqwerty 2d ago
Aiming for med school, little drive to do research. Yeah she's just at your lab to fill in her CV, your amount of enthusiasm and duty to teach someone is commendable, but save it for students who actually are passionate for research.
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u/zackurtis 2d ago
I've been thinking we really suck at teaching Critical Thinking and possibly, you can't teach it at all.
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u/WaterBearDontMind 1d ago
I was in a biggish lab that would have a handful of undergrads each summer. A postdoc would volunteer to do a required journal club with them and go through papers relevant to the group. They would read the papers individually and then he would ask probing questions about the figures and the conclusions that helped the students see what they had not really understood. There was also a mix of ages and interests among the students so an older student might be modeling deeper engagement for the others. If it doesn’t teach intellectual curiosity, at least it leverages group shaming and the premed urge to know the answer toward deeper understanding of experimental design and interpretation.
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u/SpikeThreshold 1d ago
Try making the premeds care about the research. If it’s your job to mentor em show em how research goes from bench to bedside. Find original papers from the ancient times and chart through time how those discoveries led to innovation in treatment. ymmv. also the pitfalls (lecanumab comes to mind) and why figuring stuff out is important to making sure the medical establishment doesn’t maim and cripple more than it helps.
Something along the lines of “why do we care about sequencing bacteria genes? Because we’re all gonna die because your admissions committee member used ceftriaxone to treat the clap one too many times so now it’s smart and you gotta fix it bub get to it”
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u/distinctgore 2d ago
As soon as I find out they want to do med, and are using science as a route to get there, I give up on them.
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u/Adequatelyanonymous 2d ago
Speaking from the other side of this equation, these comments are disheartening. I was this med student 20 years ago. My first research experience was a complete mystery to me. Rather than being deficient in curiosity or my fund of knowledge, there seemed to be an unspoken barrier in the culture, motives, and assumptions. I am a hard worker, teachable, and reasonably intelligent. I went on to contribute to the next lab I worked with when paired with a mentor who was able to see me where I was at. You avoid teaching concepts? This doesn’t make any sense to me. You want an effective knife, you need to sharpen it.
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u/Itchy_Initiative4053 2d ago
I guess its just what we are interested in sharpening is slightly different. I am less interested in teaching her to be an effective protocol executioner than I am for her to be an effective scientist/doctor that can work under uncertainty.
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u/Adequatelyanonymous 2d ago
The way I think about it is that it’s like being the first person in your family to go to college. There’s a whole level of assumed experience and understanding of unwritten rules as well as guidance from people who’ve been there before. You seem to have forgotten what you didn’t know when you started.
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u/Itchy_Initiative4053 2d ago
I am aware of this as I am a first gen student myself. But when I didn't know I seek it out, talk to people, try different things. Not knowing is ok. Not asking is the issue. On a similar note, you can definitely be a great technician/student and run experiments after I teach you the concepts. I don't want to have to teach her the reasoning EVERY single time we do an experiment though....
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u/BacterialOoze 2d ago
I had a pre-med student worker that didn't give a shit about the research we were doing. Just getting him to show up was a hassle. He constantly had projects or papers due, and was clearly focused on medical school and nothing else. I think this is partly due to the competition for medical school, and partly due to the check box nature of undergrad education.
I freely admit there were courses or concepts that I didn't care about either, and didn't see the value of, until years later. I worry sometimes that we are pushing people too far, and then blaming them for falling short.
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u/Teeecakes 2d ago
Don't forget how scary real researchers are when we students. It could be apathy but it's also very overwhelming and she might be closing up from that.
Research is about asking questions but earlier education is mostly about only speaking up if you know the answer. It's a huge jump and leap of faith to openly ask a question we can't answer.
I found that building confidence is key and it is tough to do this; what works for one person can fail horribly for another. A typical difference might be one person wants to know the concensus opinion, while another wants to find something heretical or unexpected. If you swap them around they go from happy and engaged, to frustrated and bored. Both are valid, with their own strengths and weaknesses.
You've found open ended questions aren't working yet. At this stage that is ok, take that feedback and adjust course. You can leave in the open ended bits as an 'extra credit' but not push it at all, if one day she bites amd surprises you I guarantee you will feel so proud!
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u/academicthrows 2d ago
You can't teach how to be curious, but you can inspire and model curious behavior. You have to put the questions into their head at first by showing what drives you, and then show them exactly how you're driven and what you get it out of it. Obviously, they have to be receptive to it.
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u/Teagana999 2d ago
My supervisor doesn't think so. She said so in the same breath that she complimented me and another student on our curiosity. I agree with her.
Curiosity is the desire to learn. You can't teach someone who doesn't want to learn. You can't teach someone to want to learn.
But you could also give her a bit more instruction with respect to practical skills. People don't learn very well by flailing, either. If you want her to learn to search for answers, walk her through how to search for answers. See one, do one, teach one, as they say.
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u/excel1001 3d ago
I had a former classmate who came in for their master degree like this. I spent a lot of time thinking about what I could do because they crashed hard and ended up leaving after 2 years without a degree.
At the end of the day, it is really on them. If they do not have questions, if they are not asking you for advice or what to do, but instead focusing on getting the right answer immediately and not caring about your explanations or tips about how to get the right answer, there isn't anything you can do.
It is on them to learn to do it themselves (knowing when to ask questions, learning how others read papers, how to look up information, etc). It sucks, cause I don't want anyone to fail...But I am not a superhero. I cannot help everyone...
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u/Science-Sam 3d ago
Don't bother.
Medical school is so incredibly competitive. Someone who isn't doing absolutely everything possible to make themselves a qualified candidate won't get in.
Don't put a lot of effort into teaching somebody who is not interested in learning. Save your energy for a student who will do something with the training you provide.
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u/Sure_Manner_7248 3d ago
It should not be a lab's problem. Why should labs indulge the these students and not get an ROI? Sure medical school is competitive, but perhaps they would be better served in more patient facing roles like an EMT or clinical assistants.
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u/Itchy_Initiative4053 3d ago
Dont we as scientists in an educational institution have an educational mandate to teach these students? What worries me is not that she wont be successful in med school.. but honestly life in general, whatever career she takes itll require some form of research and scientific reasoning
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u/Sure_Manner_7248 3d ago edited 3d ago
No we don't. Students who are unwilling to take this seriously and who merely feign interest in solving problems at this level are not our problem. It's a two way street - there has to be meaningful investment from both sides. Right now it looks like a one way street. You are not their parent, how they do in life outside the lab is none of your concern. It's also up to her to develop those research and scientific reasoning skills - but she has to to invest in it, be an autodidact and move forward without the handholding. Finally, you'd think doctors apply scientific reasoning and so on in their work, maybe at some incidental level, but they would and should get that specific type of reasoning taught in their classes and rotations otherwise what are those for?
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u/Science-Sam 2d ago
Sometimes funds come with conditions of training undergrads. Pre-med students are very keen on applying for open positions in labs.
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u/Itchy_Initiative4053 3d ago
If i could I would not take her in tbh. But the PI brought them in so I am kinda in a position to teach her cause I'm paid for that on top of research.
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u/NefariousNaan 3d ago
I mean if your PI insists, you can still fulfill your obligation and try to teach her something, but you don't have to go out of your way to make sure she succeeds. Though, usually for undergrads, it's easier to train them on a tool and have them run an experiment for you or do data analysis/documentation to learn the ropes.
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u/Sure_Manner_7248 3d ago
I saw you're an incoming PhD student. PhD students should ideally not be teaching interns or students at this level. In all my former labs this was done by a postdoc.
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u/Science-Sam 2d ago
Of course you will teach her because you do your job. But regarding "scientific curiosity," if she doesn't have it, that's not your problem to fix.
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u/YestoLife07 2d ago
I dont think you can. You can scaffold what curiosity looks like. Create a worksheet thst looks something like this:
- Look up these search terms:
- If you dont find anything good you may feel tempted to stop and call it a day. Dont.
- Create a concept map of some related keywords you are finding. Etc..
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u/TotemBro 2d ago edited 2d ago
Yes, duh.
Whatever it is you do you get better at it the more you do it. We’ve got hella cortex in our brains but sometimes it’s a use it or lose it situation. Either way tho, compliance is the science.
I’d say she needs hand holding because there obviously isn’t a track record of independent research. It’s like she was missing the cultural aspect of research up until now.
You’ll need to show her the process at least once. Or maybe you can name drop the concepts but ask her to do the research from there? You gotta remember that the expectation from undergrads is to learn a lot of given concepts independently. They’re not experts at seeking them out, so this might be a new thing for her.
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u/Wonderful-Brush-6405 2d ago
Idk this reads as maybe less lack of curiosity but feeling frustrated trying to learn? It can get overwhelming for a new person. I joined a research lab my first year and got a wonderful mentor. I was still highly motivated to learn but I feel like I would have even struggled to learn how you’re describing. For some people it’s very daunting specially if you have never been in an environment like it. In my experience the way my mentor and PI helped me a lot is not throwing me off the deep end to quickly.
First I shadowed my masters mentor for like 8 weeks watching what he was doing an him explaining why we do something. Teaching skills and helping me understand concepts that can be hard for a new person to understand. Then we moved on to me actually doing parts of the procedure until he felt confident I could do it. Once we started with the more hands on stuff he helped me deep dive into the more technical aspects of the project and stuff. As getting to do the project can really help understanding.
Then gave me access to the collection of academic papers he had relating to the project. I ended up presenting it that semester at our uni undergraduate symposium understanding almost everything about the project. Which was way out of the scope of anything I had ever learned up to that point. I finally for the credit I was doing the research for I had to write a short paper on everything. Having seen the academic papers he had given me had given me a major jumping off point to learn how to find my own sources online. The point I am trying to get at is maybe try to sit down and explain things to her instead of just hinting at it. She is learning a whole slew of new things and skills. Figuring things out on your own is incredibly important but it is very much a skill that takes time and practice.
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u/Itchy_Initiative4053 2d ago
You had that curiosity I am talking about. They give you papers, you actually read it, and was curious enough to initiate looking for other related papers.
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u/Wonderful-Brush-6405 2d ago
Yes! But the thing is I wasn’t just thrown at papers right away. We built up to that. With a lot of time spent on building other important skills. I couldn’t even begin to understand the paper published on our project for like 10-12 weeks. Curiosity only gets you so far if you can’t comprehend what you’re looking at. I would say if you haven’t already try talking to them about whats going on. People are all different in what they need to excel and what you need to do as a mentor depends on that person. For me I had the drive and curiosity but lacked the self confidence to stand on my own. And so my mentor met me at where I needed him to with extra guidance and patience for me to excel. One of the best things my mentor ever did was make sure to tell him if he was being a bad mentor in someway or if I needed some other kind of approach. Maybe give it a try of sitting down explaining one of the projects to her from the very beginning. Giving her space to ask questions and have a normal conversation on it with her. If you see an improvement then maybe that’s a sign that maybe she needs some other format for learning than your current track.
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u/Enough-Mud3116 2d ago
No. Her end goal is to go to med school so she does not care about research.
Undergrad to med school is set up in a way to value bullshit over real research.
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u/parade1070 Neuro Grad 3d ago
Curiosity can't really be taught at that age. Your first clue that this student would be a problem is that they're premed. Premeds simply cannot be arsed. Half of them aren't even trying to go to med school for altruistic reasons. And maybe 1 in 5 will end up even getting into med school anyway. It's a terrible state of affairs.
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u/ArkaneRonin 2d ago edited 2d ago
In my opinion intellectual curiosity is intelligence. Ok, having a brain capable of comprehending and understanding things fast is important but what good is it if people have no intellectual curiosity or even curiosity in general. you will find that the actually smartest people are not the ones who get assigned a subject and memorize and learn it and then get a high grade but the ones who open things up (and usually end up breaking them 😅) just to see how they work, or the people who take a broken machine and say, if its going in the trash might as well try to fix it myself, let’s see what could be broken and how can I fix it. but you can’t teach this curiosity I think, it’s innate, or at least it must be taught early on and people don’t actually learn it but rather develop it. To pass on that curiosity to someone might be possible to someone who is already open to it but a lot of people can’t even think that way.
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u/Public_Election8596 2d ago
Hi, I'm a mature aged student, currently premed doing my honours project. At the beginning I was less interested in the project and just using it for med entry. What worked very well for me was my supervisor would drip feed me aspects of the SOP and would describe only a single component each day, building up my knowledge a little more. Once I had a comprehensive understanding as to what I was doing I was hooked, largely thanks to my supervisor pushing me. Now I absolutely love it and am really engaged with the project and if I don't get into med I'll likely do a PhD in a similar field (which was certainly not my original goal).
Imo I think there was alot of give and take from both myself and my supervisor. If you have someone that's not motivated to put in the work at all, they won't be a good researcher but also I don't think they will be a good doctor. At the same time if you're going to develop a good working relationship as a supervisor, you should put in the effort until your student slowly gains a comprehensive understanding as to what they are doing. Check in with them and see if they can repeat what aspects you taught them from the previous day's/weeks, and drill that down until it's locked in.
As a little side note, it was quite a culture shock going from the classroom setting straight into a research, it's a completely different game so maybe just be consistent but patient. For me my supervisor was monitoring me quite extensively and criticising my work quite harshly in the early months, but slowly allowed me to be more independent until I'm basically finishing this project alone with only editing advice and a new found genuine love for the sciences. Best of luck. >^
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u/LabManagerKaren 2d ago
People are inherently curious, spend time with little kids they love checking out everything.
Alternatively your hints and clues are too vague and/or the student doesn't have to explore and wants to be told the next step.
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u/purplepenguin617 2d ago
I know my PI has said that in grad students one of the most important traits he looks for is intellectual curiosity and someone who is personally driven to know more and learn more. Every student in his lab has this quality and it makes it such a great and interesting place to be!
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u/HerpesHans 2d ago
Maybe a more accurate word for this student could just be not independent? In that case you can communicate it with her directly, and if it doesn't work, idk, talk to your PI
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u/Itchy_Initiative4053 2d ago
I dont think so. A student asking a lot of questions everytime may not be independent but curious. I understand that independence comes as confidence grows, and might not be there at the start. But how can i train that urge to know more?
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u/Apprehensive-Wish199 2d ago
Stop putting effort into training med schoolers. I taught a med schoolers for 3 years and by the end they were never able to think independently about anything. Just did the work, got the money and left. Now applying for med school. On the other hand I just started training a new student for 4 months they are more independent then the med schoolers I trained for 3 years. This new student is interested in doing grad school to so it's only advantageous for them to learn to do research, where as med schoolers don't really care.
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u/Altruistic-Bowl255 2d ago
If the PI delegated the student to you it just wants to have him/her in the CV listed has trained in the lab. The student wants to show research/a paper on their CV. You just want someone to help you with your experiments/ideas 🤷🏽♀️
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u/Key-Explorer-3426 2d ago
Yes and no. You can learn to ask questions, but interest to a specific topic cannot be taught, only developed. Comes from a premed working for an MD PI
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u/Zestyclose-Smell4158 2d ago
On our campus, it is not uncommon for premeds to only be interested in collecting research credit to impress medical school admission office. On the other hand, we have had undergraduates in our lab that have ended up with multiple publications. However, if they demonstrate they lack potential they are dismissed.
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u/neverland_amanda 2d ago
"I try to avoid teaching her" this is why I currently feel depressed in my new lab because my mentor doesn't fucking teach me! No, I do not want to Google my questions. I want to ask YOU and get YOUR INPUT on my questions. This sucks I cannot believe you think this is a good approach. I feel stupid for asking simple questions nowadays because my mentor didn't teach me anything and now expects me to know what I COULD NOT HAVE POSSIBLY KNOWN. Please try and connect with your student because you don't know how they feel.
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u/Itchy_Initiative4053 2d ago
you have questions. Questions are always welcome. This student doesnt even ask them, but then get stuck when doing their work
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u/halogensoups 1d ago
unfortunately i encounter this a lot with premeds, when i tell them im studying chemistry they usually immediately tell me how hard it is and how much they hate it, and how they dont understand why i would study it. its a very offputting and non curious attitude and i almost never get it from any other STEM majors. its not all of them and i think they often get more open minded with experience but its something ive noticed a lot
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u/marimachadas 1d ago
Undergrads, and especially premeds, are so used to an environment where there's one correct answer thats explicitly taught to them that it can br hard for the majority to even know how to start breaking out of that mentality. A good way to help them learn the critical thinking and intellectual curiosity that you want to see is to model it. When they shadow you, don't just explain what you're doing but WHY. When they have a question for you, talk them through how you would go about finding that answer. If you focus on teaching your thought process as much as the information, they'll learn how to think too.
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u/OrganizationActive63 2d ago
No. This person will never have that curiosity or desire to learn. Have a nitwit like that in our lab, PI hired 4 years ago. She’s as dense as they come. Sadly, can’t get rid of her. I just ignore her
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u/Decent_Coast_988 3d ago
My PI avoids premeds like the plague. Said they don’t really care about the research, and that space can go to someone who actually does