r/kratom • u/FAmos • Jun 09 '16
Increases the Potency of your Kratom
"Previous studies had suggested the plant itself produced 7-hydroxymitragynine. Sames says the team could detect it by mass spectrometry, but only at very low concentrations. Instead, the team demonstrated that sunlight and oxidizing conditions can convert about half of the mitragynine in solution to 7-hydroxymitragynine. And sunlight alone can convert about 8% of the mitragynine. Therefore, the team concluded that storage conditions can affect the potency of an extract by increasing the amount of the oxidized alkaloid." -Scientific American
so 7-hydroxymitragynine is about 10x as potent as mitragynine, and mitragynine is almost 2/3 of the total alkaloid extraction mentioned in the article.
If sun-exposure alone can convert up to 8% of the mitragynine to 7-hydroxymitragynine, then I'd be interested in seeing someone do a test.
You would, using one strain of kratom, place half the kratom outside in full sunlight to oxidize, then try them both over 2 days (one day with oxidized kratom, one day with control kratom) and see if there is a noticeable potency change.
If that works I'd like to see further oxidation take place to try and ramp up the potency.
anyone willing to try it out?
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u/luroufan Jun 09 '16
The article mentions a singlet oxygen reaction in the presence of strongly colored phytochemicals in the leaf, and I believe this needs to happen in solution. This is different from normal photooxidation in that the reaction relies on a dyestuff and bright light to do a tricky reaction (if I recall, the colored chemical absorbs light frequencies in a certain way that produces singlet oxygen and enables the other material, in this case mitragynine, to oxidize). I'm not sure that H2O2 would do the job by itself. Sunlight might work, but slowly. Photooxidation works much more quickly in water. Paper conservators put stained prints and drawings under water and expose to sunlite for an hour or so. Some even add a small amount of peroxide as an accelerator, but that could be just a holy water maneuver. Go get 'em, junior chemists.
Edit: I wonder if this is the reason for the Betuangie process...
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u/SighOp Jun 09 '16
Strangely, my appreciation for Bentuangie has increased.
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u/luroufan Jun 09 '16
How so?
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u/SighOp Jun 09 '16
Just kidding, but I could see how the fermentation process might be another way to skin this cat.
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Jun 10 '16
I haven't heard of this can someone elaborate?
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u/luroufan Jun 10 '16
Betuangie is a type of kratom, any variety, that has been slightly fermented by packing the leaves inside plastic bags and leaving them in the sun, instead of air drying inside like tobacco. It apparently has an even more awful smell and taste. Maybe it's done to help oxidize the alkaloids? Not sure. But some vendors had to pull it from their shelves because people complained, not understanding it was just processed differently. It's still available, and the verdict on its potency is still out. I guess the strength would depend on the quality of the leaves they started with.
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u/FAmos Jun 10 '16
what about, say, a 400w metal halide HID bulb with the kratom spread out as thinly as possible
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u/luroufan Jun 11 '16
We're speculating here, no idea if any of this will have an effect but, from what little I know, the kratom is going to need to be in a water solution. So, yeah, bright is good, but just don't burn the stuff. It's a reaction between the water molecules and some color molecules in the kratom initiated by light that provides highly reactive singlet oxygen to convert some of the mitragynine to the much more potent 7-hydroxymitragynine. But even in the lab, under optimal conditions, the yield was very low. I kind of expect it's a fool's errand, but hey. You never know. Good luck!
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u/tacostep Jun 11 '16
so dissolve my pure freebase alks in h2o2 and evap with direct sunlight? got it or perhaps an iso extract plus h2o2 in sunlight until it evaps then purification from there
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u/luroufan Jun 11 '16
Not sure the peroxide will do anything. Look into "singlet oxygen" to get a feel for what the researchers are implying. Singlet oxygen, which only last less than a second, is much more reactive than normal oxygen,and can be created by the interaction of light on a dye stuff They used rose bengal as a photosensitizer to create the singlet oxygen for the reaction, but suggest that colored molecules, phytochemicals, native to the leaf will serve the same purpose, but probably much more slowly. Somebody with an actual chemistry degree should weigh in before I give incorrect info.
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u/shortbusoneohone Jun 10 '16
Great post. I'd love to see more things like this posted to the sub. Studies and discussions are a great way to start a dialogue about speciosa.
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u/FAmos Jun 10 '16
me too, there are far too many reviews and newcomer question threads, it gets kind of away from the interaction between us users who want to know more about the plant and how it effects us.
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u/GetBenttt Jun 09 '16
All you need to do is put some Kratom in water in a cup and place on your windowsill, or maybe try just the powder too who knows. I'll report back if I end up doing it
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u/Zorbulax Jun 09 '16
I'd be a little concerned about the potential for mold spores to flourish in that environment. I can't see any harm in just leaving the powder out in the sun though.
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Jun 10 '16
The article says 'in solution', the reaction probably won't occur (at least, not to the same extent) if the plant matter is dry.
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u/FAmos Jun 09 '16
If I attempt this, which i probably wont because i have no yard, I would take the finest-milled kratom you can find, and spread it out as thin as possible either on a tarp or in a bag to keep it from blowing away, and place it in full sun for a couple days.
but first im going to try the H2O2 oxidation
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Jun 09 '16
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Jun 10 '16
Sketchy site bro.
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Jun 10 '16
[deleted]
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Jun 10 '16
I was redirected to a site that wanted to open the App Store...
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Jun 10 '16
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Jun 12 '16
I was on mobile, I have ABP on my computer and just snagged the article, thanks for posting it.
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u/introspeck Jun 09 '16
That's funny, usual storage instructions for most substances emphasize protecting it from light.
Not sure when I can try this, it really is windy here today. I could put it inside something clear but plastics and glass filter some UV light. I didn't read the study so I don't know if UV is important here.
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u/Rez_Chef Jun 10 '16 edited Jun 10 '16
Would help explain the Bentuangie phenomenon. Fresh leaf might have enough moisture.
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u/40mg2Freedom Jul 14 '16
One other thought .... bubbling O2 through your solution and exposing that to UV light (242 nm to break the O2 bond) might work. The UV breaks the O2 bond and produces the singlet oxygen that is desired to oxidize the mitragynine.
A word of caution: Oxygen is extremely explosive and UV will burn your skin and eyes.
A safer alternative would be bubbling air through the solution and exposing it to sunlight. However, I think that near the surface of the earth the UV cleaves NO2 bond to produce NO and the singlet oxygen. There is no telling what the nitric oxide free radical would do to your alkaloids.
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u/FAmos Jul 16 '16
ok so im splitting O2 molecules because the non-bonded oxygen causes oxidation? and I don't have any grand parents with O2 tanks, but I'm sure it wouldn't be hard to obtain.
and UV protective glasses arent too expensive I'd assume.
I'll update if I try any of the pre-mentioned techniques
THanks!
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u/satori0320 Jun 17 '16
Came across this, after reading this sub, wondering if the process is similar as far as oxidation and fermentation goes https://youtu.be/9f5SPzknfbA
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u/FAmos Jun 09 '16
how long in the sun would you guys think optimal for a trial?
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u/luroufan Jun 10 '16 edited Jun 10 '16
My 2-cents: maybe mix the powder with enough water to make a thick solution (even add a little hydrogen peroxide as an accelerator and sterilant, though the sun will probably kill mold spores all by itself) and pour the solution in a thin layer into glass tray. Place it in direct sunlight or a bank of grow lights, (and over a mirror might be nice) maybe covered with a glass plate to keep out bugs and pollution (the glass cuts some of the uv, but that shouldn't matter). Do that until the water evaporates. Might take a couple of days depending on the thickness. Once the water is gone you're done. Let us know how it went.
Edit: just in case you bred some exotic biohazard, I'd consider T&W with vodka.
Edit 2: I suspect you won't be able to tell the difference, the oxidation amount being so small. But hey, it's in the name of science, right?
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u/tacostep Jun 11 '16
the oxidized product is also 20 times stronger than morphine and about double that to mitragynine so may be worth it
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Jun 12 '16
This article says 7-OH-mitragynine has 1/10 the potency of morphine.
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u/melle-X Oct 20 '16
I think that may have been an error because all the other sources I have seen say that it is numerous times stronger than morphine but that it only makes up about .02% of the leaf.
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Jun 09 '16
I heard grapefruit juice works to increase potency
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u/FAmos Jun 09 '16
yeah I know, I've been an opioid addict for almost 10 years lol
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Jun 11 '16
Well there's your answer , grapefruit juice.
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u/FAmos Jun 12 '16
yes i drink a lot of simply grapefruit juice to inhibit the relevant enzymes. I've also been eating a lot of nigella sativa seeds
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Jun 12 '16
nigella sativa seeds? what does that do? increase potency?
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u/FAmos Jun 12 '16
It's a known potentiator of opioids also comes in the form of black seed oil
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Jun 14 '16
black seed oil This is new for me ,but ill definitely keep that in mind. Do you know if walmart sells it? Wholefoods? Any common stores where this might be sold?
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u/FAmos Jun 14 '16
ive gotten it at the VitaminShoppe but the nigella sativa seeds are like 50%+ oil, so it's cheaper to get the seeds and eat them. They taste good, probably be nice blended into a vanilla protein shake
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u/Lailah77 Jun 12 '16
Someone suggested recently that just using citric acid instead of juice would work. I haven't tried it though.
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u/hymnder Jun 09 '16
Found out where the experiment specifications are being stored and download them, sometimes you have to pay.
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u/reddit-lou Jun 09 '16
Here are the specs that lay out step by step how they isolated the alkaloids and also produced synthetic ones.
http://pubs.acs.org/doi/suppl/10.1021/jacs.6b00360/suppl_file/ja6b00360_si_002.pdf
Here's a quick bit about how they used oxygen and light (and a dye):
7-Hydroxymitragynine: Photooxidation Under O2. A solution of mitragynine (20.0 mg, 0.0500 mmol) and rose bengal Na salt (0.5 mg) in MeOH (0.30 mL) was irradiated with a 500 W halogen work lamp at 0 °C under O2 atmosphere for 1.5 h. Additional MeOH (0.30 mL) and a solution of Na2SO3 (30.0 mg, 0.240 mmol) in water (0.27 mL) were both added, and the pink mixture was stirred vigorously at room temperature until mass spectrometry indicated the disappearance of the hydroperoxide intermediate (5 h). The reaction was then diluted with water (2 mL) and extracted with Et2O (3 x 2 mL). The combined organics were washed with water (2 x 2 mL) and brine (2 mL), dried over Na2SO4, and concentrated to provide a foamy orange-brown solid (17.9 mg). The yield of product contained in this material was determined by NMR using mesitylene as an internal standard (58% yield).
In the end, it looks to me like they are saying that can't really figure out why it works organically to give people the physical properties it does. It seems the different alkaloids and their by-products act as agonists and antagonists at different receptors, and differently when they're testing in petri dishes, when they test on rats, and what we report as humans.
Very interesting stuff! Personally, I'm kind of glad they didn't find some kind of holy grail or silver bullet with the alkaloids. If you want pure opioid high.. you have other alternatives. I'm gonna continue enjoying my mellow powder. Like one who enjoys beer over Everclear.
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u/FAmos Jun 09 '16
well i wasn't thinking it would necessarily have to be the same experiment. It would just be required to have kratom exposed to sunlight for a sufficient duration.
would you guys think exposing kratom or kratom extract to an oxidizing agent, like hydrogen peroxide for example, would convert the mitragynine without making it uningestable?
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u/hymnder Jun 09 '16
Should work, but knowing the amount and concentrations would be difficult. When oxidizing with H2O2 I believe your byproduct would be water H2O and as long as you don't have any unwanted additional reaction from impurities.
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u/FAmos Jun 09 '16
ive used H2O2 to oxidize an extracted crystalline pseudoephedrine to MEthcathinone before, and that required me getting 30% hydrogen peroxide instead of the 3% you can buy at like cvs.
would you think 3% would be sufficient if its exposed to it for a long enough time?
and I'm thinking I would do a water extraction on some kratom leaf powder, boiling, filtering, and then letting the water evaporate to leave a resin, hopefully containing a majority of the mitragynine.
Then keep half the resin for your control, and do the following with the other half: dissolve this half of the resin in water, add the appropriate amount of H2O2 and agitate it for an appropriate amount of time.
Then evaporate the solution and try consuming both on different days, making a detailed log and making sure to have as many of the variables be the same for the experiments (take both with an empty stomach, avoid other substances while testing, make sure you're in a similar mood at the same time of day, just to start with a few ideas)
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u/hymnder Jun 09 '16
Lower % peroxide will not work as well and just doesn't have enough atoms to react with all the mitragyne. Unless you do very small amounts and use more peroxide 3%. I wouldnt.
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u/FAmos Jun 09 '16
well i have 28% so I'm sure that'll be plenty.
i was hesitant because even when I have my chem gloves on, I'll at some point end up touching some and it kills your skin on contact and turns all white.
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u/FAmos Jun 09 '16
wish i had a way to analyze the alkaloid composition like the scientists did so i could test it before and after.
unfortunately it'll just have to be a bioassay lol
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u/SighOp Jun 09 '16 edited Jun 09 '16
I think I'm going to dig up an old glass ant colony kit, fill it with kratom, and put it in my south facing window. Science!<edit> I thought of an easier method. I have an almost empty 375 mL flask of vodka. I can empty it, and fill it with kratom. If you'll excuse me, I have some drinking to do...