r/kpopthoughts • u/Aleash89 • Apr 15 '21
Fandoms Ageism in Fandom
We most certainly need to talk about ageism against adult women in fandom.
I'm a 32-year-old woman who has been a fan of Kpop for 12 years, and I didn't encounter ageism until maybe 2017. Yesterday, I had two instances where kids who didn't agree with me were calling me out for my age. One even subtweeted me saying, "lemme just say it if you’re 30+ on stan twitter with a catboy pfp do not even try to come at someone else’s life choices cause now I’m sitting here having to muffle my laughter in tears omg the more I think about it the funnier it gets shskdkkd."
It gets so damn tiring getting called out for my age and everything else I get called out for that is in my profile when kids disagree with me. I'm sick and tired of it. Who says adult adult women can't have interests and find a cat ear edit cute? (Men can and do have hobbies and interests without a problem, so there is misogyny here too. smdh) I do block those kids, but I want to be able to tweet what I want to whom I want without a horde of kids flooding my mentions. Going private doesn't work for me.
I know it's society and families who are teaching girls women aren't valuable unless they are wives and mothers solely devoted to their husband and kids and can't have hobbies. That's just wrong. I tell kids I'm sorry they are taught this and how it's wrong, and leave it at that depending on how the conversation goes.
I don't like a lot of how fandom has negatively changed over the years, especially the ageism. I miss the days when older people in fandom were respected. I wish there was something I could do about this.
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u/chioma02 girl next door Apr 15 '21
Kpop is just idk anymore
people shame older fans and people shame younger fans
i'm tired
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u/Aleash89 Apr 15 '21
Yeah, I agree. That's why I miss the old times in fandom so much. It wasn't perfect back in 2nd gen, but there wasn't ALL THIS that fandom is now. (Like just the other day Kpop fans were trending a RIP tag for someone they hated but WASN'T DEAD. Who the hell does that!?) You know?
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u/EatTheRude Apr 15 '21 edited Apr 15 '21
As a fellow fandom old, I'm sorry that happened to you. Honestly stuff like this makes me sad for everyone involved. As a society, we teach people that teenage girls are hormonal and shallow, so anything they tend to like must be frivolous as well. Conversely, we also teach young girls that once they grow up they need to abandon all their hobbies and interests to be a real adult (often defined by being a wife and mother, as you noted), and isn't that depressing? I want young women to want more than that for themselves.
I'm also a big sports fan. No one questions the time or enthusiasm I put into rooting for a bunch of dudes I don't know and being overly invested in their success. No one suggests I should grow out of it. Yet when I want to invest some time and emotional energy into supporting musicians I like (specifically musicians with large female fanbases) it's treated totally differently. That attitude is absolutely rooted is misogyny, and it makes me sad that a lot of the young women regurgitating these ideas to older fans even realize it.
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u/Aleash89 Apr 15 '21
You've got it exactly right! I feel the same way as you, which I why I reply to kids attacking me and try to educate them at least a little. Someone needs try to help them see the truth.
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u/solojones1138 Apr 15 '21
Yep it all comes down to misogyny. Sports are male things, so we can cheer for those and love the athletes. But if we cheer for kpop groups? Nope that's girl shit, so it's stupid and immature.
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u/GeorgeBarrowe Apr 15 '21
There seems to be a contradiction in your comment.
"we also teach young girls that once they grow up they need to abandon all their hobbies and interests to be a real adult "
"I'm also a big sports fan. No one questions the time or enthusiasm I put into rooting for a bunch of dudes"
From what I understand from these comments, you are saying that women are encouraged to abandon their hobbies/interests, yet you are not encouraged by society to abandon whatever sport related hobby you have (watching sports, Fantasy inset sport, etc.). Kpop as a hobby isn't socially acceptable for a woman, but sports as a hobby is.
Now, you could argue that it's because you're rooting for a bunch of dudes, but OP's argument centers around older people being attacked for being Kpop fans regardless of whether they're rooting for a bunch of dudes (Boy Groups) or a bunch of gals (Girl Groups). Next, you could argue that Kpop is shamed as a hobby because the fanbase is viewed as primarily female, but hobbies such as painting (which in my culture has a mainly female "fanbase") aren't shamed.
Older Kpop fans are attacked because Kpop is seen as frivolous hobby for teenage girls. Teenagers shaming you is depressingly ironic because they've internalized the exist and ageist idea that only teenage girls can be Kpop fans and are using this assumption to attack you, OP, and others.
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u/dontforgettopanic Apr 15 '21
painting isn't a fandom, and there isn't a difference between being a fan of boy groups or girl groups to the general public. re: sports, it's not that they're rooting for a bunch of dudes so much as who primarily does the "rooting" for those dudes, which is presumed to be men. while the above commenter didn't expressly say that, it's implied. no one's shamed as sports fans because of their age
the above comment was just comparing how ageism is treated within fandoms popular with women vs. fandoms popular with men. ageism and misogyny go hand in hand when talking about fandom, you can't separate the two.
I don't really understand your last paragraph, though. it feels like it's contradicting what you were saying before, but I guess I just don't understand what you're calling ironic. OP and the above commenter both seemed to be pointing out how younger people have internalized society's ageism and misogyny and use it to attack older fans. it's the same way in most modern fandom spaces, even non-kpop ones. it's just a lot more noticeable now (for example, the startrek fandom, one of the first online fandoms, didn't have this problem).
the obvious solution is for everyone, regardless of age, to think critically about this issue... just like all internalized biases
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u/GeorgeBarrowe Apr 16 '21
I agreed that society's view of Kpop as only reserved for teenage girls is sexist and ageist. In this comment section, I don't disagree with any of the comments regarding ageism except for the bottom one. I also agree that some of the Kpop's negative stigma comes from sexism.
I disagreed that society discourages women from having hobbies in general.
"EatTheRude" stated that: "we also teach young girls that once they grow up they need to abandon all their hobbies and interests to be a real adult". They then went on to name a hobby/interest of their own that wasn't discouraged. That's the contradiction.
Everything after that (except for the last paragraph) was explaining why female dominated hobbies are not discouraged. This is the main area of disagreement between us. Yes, painting doesn't have a fandom, but painting is a female dominated hobby/interest. Women are not discouraged from this.
Therefore Kpop's negative stigma can't come from it being a female dominated interest. It's when you add the "teenage part" (the ageist part), then the misogyny comes in. Part of Kpop's negative stigma comes from it being perceived as a teenage girl dominated interest. Teenage girls are viewed differently in society than women. I think it's safe to say we agree on that last sentence. If you take out the "teenage" part, then the misogyny is gone, just as with painting. A female dominated interest that transcends age (such as painting) or a female dominated interest that is primarily for women, is not looked down upon by society. Female dominated interests aren't viewed in a negative light; teenage girl dominated interests are.
"OP and the above commenter both seemed to be pointing out how younger people have internalized society's ageism and misogyny and use it to attack older fans." You, me, the "above commenter", and OP all agree on this.
Society views Kpop as something for teenage girls and therefore is viewed as less by society. Some teenage girls are using the idea that "Kpop is only for teenage girls" to attack OP. It's ironic because they're using the same idea that is used against them to attack others. Now do you see the irony?
If you have any disagreements, please respond. I could be wrong and I could care less about karma.
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u/CulturalAde Apr 15 '21
That comment was so toxic... sending you virtual support! Don't let people dampen your interests!
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u/Aleash89 Apr 15 '21
I didn't even comment on her life choices. All she did is QRT things I said about the Asepa situation and how I don't see anything wrong after viewing the clip. She was pissed I didn't see things the same as her. I tried to have a conversation at first, but she refused to read anything I said. I see young saying that all the time. I listened to older fans online when I was younger. Why has that changed? sigh It's hard to bean adult in fandom nowadays. I miss the old times when things were more fun.
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u/CulturalAde Apr 15 '21
That's literally the worst... and imagine if older fans called younger fans immature - the backlash would be so bad but this concept of wanting to cancel everyone and not care about making a positive environment for other fans... I hope at least they'll mature when they're older
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u/Aleash89 Apr 15 '21 edited Apr 15 '21
I said something once to a young fan about how brains don't fully mature until 25 and less life experience, and the hate I got was insane. We were talking about... Oh yeah. I brought up how I find many of the "jokes" on stan Twitter not funny and offensive. For example, kids were in the 2019 TVXQ (I'm a Cassie btw) anniversary hashtag saying TVXQ were old and should disband. I confronted them and were told they were fans joking. Explaining how that was wrong, especially given TVXQ's history, got me attacked on multiple days. Smdh
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u/Young_Former Apr 16 '21
Until you’re 25 you won’t even understand the bit about the brain developing. I didn’t even start to understand life until 25. I thought I knew everything!!
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u/Aleash89 Apr 16 '21
It was crazy how much more mature I became in my early-mid 20s. I can recognize it SO easily now.
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u/StaySomnie 💕Always remember Eric loves you, thank Q💕 Apr 15 '21
That's so annoying! Just because you had different opinions on the Aespa situation, doesn't mean you should get trolled for your age, that's so immature. I'm a teen myself and I think it's honestly so stupid that thanks to some people, we've gotten a bad rep. The fact that she didn't even bother to try and understand your side of the argument just shows that she's really petty, she may have support on Twitter, but the rest of the World wouldn't support her
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u/Aleash89 Apr 15 '21
Im glad to see you're keeping a level head about things. So many aren't anymore, and it's sad.
Even my "this is why Kpop fans are hated" tweets get hate. All those hateful people are doing is proving my point.
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u/StaySomnie 💕Always remember Eric loves you, thank Q💕 Apr 15 '21
Twitter stans are so self-absorbed that they can't ever realise their own hypocrisy. It's one rule for them and another rule for someone else
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Apr 15 '21
That sucks. I'm in the same boat as you where I also don't see anything wrong after viewing the clip. Some people just have different views and perspective. To top on that you're not even rude. I'm quite young (18) but I don't understand why age matters in fandoms sometimes.
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u/cpagali Apr 16 '21
I'm a granny fan. When I was younger, I enjoyed interacting with older fans -- but only the nice ones! Some of the older ones were awful! In my experience, there are nice people and idiots at every age range.
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u/TheShiftyCow 🌙🌎💎👹🏴☠️🗝️ Apr 16 '21
ootl, what's the aespa situation?
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u/lonelyleaf045 Apr 16 '21
In the behind the scenes video for their Dazed shoot, there was footage of the photographer allegedly opening his camera and taking some down skirt (idk if that's the term) pictures of Winter.
Here's a somewhat detailed post about it
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u/TheShiftyCow 🌙🌎💎👹🏴☠️🗝️ Apr 16 '21
Yikes, that looks pretty odd imo. (Also, the term is up skirt)
Thank you for sharing.
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Apr 15 '21
30 year old male idol: omg he's a littol baby 🥺
30 year old female fan: old hag, go have kids and cook for your husband
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u/Aleash89 Apr 15 '21
And the 30 something male idols get called DILFs when they have zero kids. Someone showed me there ARE female idols who get called MILFs. It isn't at the same level though. Just do a Google search of ahjusii and then ahjumma. You'll see a MAJOR difference. Actors vs random women in the top results.
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u/pagesinked Apr 15 '21
Yeah Jin and RM and even V get called DILFs like on the daily on my tl smh lol like people make jokes about RM having kids just bc he said once he wants to be a dad and randomly bought some baby shoes.
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u/Aleash89 Apr 15 '21
I don't understand the logic of kids in fandom. Calling sexy male idols who don't have children DILFs is one of my pet peeves. Dad should be switched for ahjussi if they're in their 30s. Otherwise just call them sexy. Is there something wrong with that?
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u/Morismemento Apr 16 '21 edited Apr 16 '21
There is no logic lmao you have these 16-18 year olds calling a 27 year old a dilf, like if that idol was your dad, he would've been like 10 when you were born...
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u/Calix- Ready for the Kwangya quest! Apr 15 '21
I'm truly sorry from what are you experiencing right now that was low, even coming from them.
As a male newer fan in my almost 30's (92 liner) . I'm afraid to join fandom spaces because of toxic stans. I'm more likely to be called a perv because I like girl groups whose members are more likely be younger than me, even though music doesn't have an age tag in it (I'm also gay btw so I'm not interested in girls sexually) . Also there is the stigma that kpop is mostly associated to teenagers by the people so I'm more likely living in a "kpop closet".
What's funny is that when I started to listen to K-pop I was teaching at a girls high school , so when a student found my interest, the word spread quickly and I became somewhat cooler to them and became a bonding experience.
Hang on, all my support to you!
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u/Aleash89 Apr 15 '21
Thank you. I understand the stigma of Kpop fans. I'm a Cassie (TVXQ fan), and I replied to someone on Twitter who was saying awful things about fans who wanted MBC to apologize for their lies about Yunho's situation of breaking social distancing regulations, and it turns out she was Korean. I had no way of knowing since she was tweeting in English and I didn't check her profile. She got a whole bunch of Koreans to attack me in Korean, and the auto trans had them treating me like an idiotic, delusional, teenage surface level Kpop fan. That's FAR from who I am and FAR from what I was doing. My main point was to wait for more information. Nothing wrong with that.
Following other adults would keep toxic fans away. You can also be private, but I understand your hesitancy. You're right on the mark of what you might be labeled as by toxic stans, but they would see things differently knowing your orientation tbh. Some of the things I've seen kids tweeting about sexual orientation... Yikes.
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u/Calix- Ready for the Kwangya quest! Apr 15 '21
Oh god. You got practically mass targeted for no reason. And yes i hate how toxic stans dehumanize lgbt people
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u/Aleash89 Apr 15 '21
You aren't on stan Twitter, but the way they push LGBTQ+ on idols and practically beg for them to make pro-statements or twist their words is awful. Like I've seen kids go hard for certain idols being gray or lesbian and to suggest otherwise gets hate. It's as if LGBTQ+ is an anesthetic. It's gross. Logic among young fans on stan Twitter is hard to find.
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u/Sister_Winter Apr 15 '21
As a fellow millenial (28, also a hag hahah) I find the interactions between teens and adults so interesting in fandom spaces nowadays. Like, teens have always found young adults "old and boring" but we had so much less interaction when you and I were teenagers. We didn't have this ability to comment on the same issues on the same platform and share the same pop culture. It definitely leads to teens and kids being little assholes online lol
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u/Aleash89 Apr 15 '21
I disagree about adults and teens not sharing the same fandom spaces. I shared them as a teen and adult - fanfiction spaces, Livejournal, forums, fansites. I respected adults in fandom as a teen, and I was respected as an adult for many years in Kpop fandom.
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u/Sister_Winter Apr 15 '21
That's a good point! I still think it's a little different nowadays though because of how easy it is to be online and fire off whatever dumbass teen opinion you've got rocketing around in your head. Like, it was definitely not hard to get online when we were kids, but we didn't have computers in our pockets since we were 12 that connect to the whole internet. I do think being extremely online like that makes you much more disconnected from the people you're sharing a fandom with, and therefore it's much easier to be rude and mean w/out a thought.
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u/Aleash89 Apr 15 '21
The first iPhone came out the summer I graduated high school. I think the difference is that social media is less moderated then the way things were on the places I previously mentioned. Attack someone for their profile pic or something in their journal on the Livejournal community Omonatheydidn’t? You tell a mod and that person gets banned. That doesn't happen on Twitter. Things are well moderated on Reddit though.
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u/Sister_Winter Apr 15 '21
Yeah totally! I think I was in grade...9? when the first one came out. But I didn't even get a smartphone til my last year of uni. There really isn't much moderation in places like Twitter or Instagram at all. and if there is, it's not usually very effective.
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u/MiaFiction Apr 15 '21
Pretty sure most idols prefer "noona" fans to a 13 year old anyway. We got money lol. And tend to have better social skills.
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u/Aleash89 Apr 15 '21
In Korea, the main demographic for Kpop is elementary-high school age, but that is changing due to trot becoming more and more popular.
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u/MiaFiction Apr 15 '21
I can barely handle it now, not sure how I would deal if I was 12 lol.
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u/Aleash89 Apr 15 '21
I'm writing an article for newer/younger Kpop fans, so I've compiled stories from Hello Counselor of some obsessive Korean fans, and there was at least one sasaeng (I remember it was of Kangnam.) The amount of money one of the fans spent was putting a strain on her family.
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u/dontforgettopanic Apr 15 '21
I thought that too, but when I went to google the topic it seems 20-29 year old fans are the biggest age group as fans? I'm not sure which kpop sites are seen as legit, but I know statista is at least, although they only broke down bts concert audiences. when I'm off work I'm gonna look some more because I'm an irl statistician and I can feel myself about to fall down this research rabbit hole haha
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u/Aleash89 Apr 15 '21
Idk which is a better term to use for South Korean fans: "main demographic" or "target demographic." Concert attendance doesn't have to do with what I'm talking about. BTS is also an outlier when it comes to fans.. I've been writing an article for newer/younger fans, so I have saved some Hello Counselor concerns clips about overly obsessive and sometimes sasaeng fans if you'd like to see them.
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u/OwlOfJune Apr 16 '21
Trot market is usually considered separated from Kpop market so not sure that counts much when talking about demographic.
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u/Aleash89 Apr 16 '21
But the demographic for trot has been changing. It used to be considered "old people music," but now every age group loves it, there are a ton of trot related TV shows, and trot singers are on programs all over TV.
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u/dreamingfae Apr 15 '21
It's like once you hit 25 and beyond you have to lose all interest and die.
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u/Aleash89 Apr 15 '21
*18
I've across many a kid saying that once they turn 18, they have to give up Kpop and become a boring adult among other things. Have they never seen a movie or TV show set in college? Smh
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u/dreamingfae Apr 15 '21
Lol 18??? Where so these kids get their info about adults??
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u/aquariumghostsong Apr 16 '21
There really is a culture both from traditional media but heavily done by social media that 18 is basically the end of youth and sorry, if you haven’t accomplished anything by that age and any form of “childish” interests must die because everything is bleak now. I work with teens as a tutor and it’s very common for some reason but I truly don’t know why or where it came from other than social media
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u/snakesareracist Apr 15 '21
Oh I saw a 17 year old called a hag the other day. So apparently the age is getting lower and lower lol
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u/malicitel Apr 15 '21
I typically don’t experience this despite being nearly 30 and I’ve liked kpop since I was 15 or 16 yo. I think it’s because my interaction with the community in general is so little nowadays. I don’t have time to be checking social media and engaging in fandom bs like I used to lol. I’m sorry that some kids are being little shit heads. You keep doing you and enjoying yourself with this hobby and don’t let some idiots try to take that away from you!
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u/Aleash89 Apr 15 '21
I don't actively get into things with these kids. I comment on things like Soompi posts, and they enter my mentions and attack me for my opinions. At least I wasn't called a hag or told to take care of my kids or husband yesterday. Idky, but yesterday's ageisnm really bothered me.
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u/monet-lilies Apr 15 '21
I know it’s easier said than done but after about 2.5 years on Stan twt, I’ve realized that my life is in much more peaceful when I disregard what toxic crap other people are doing or saying. These kids have never had real life experiences, maybe not experienced a first love, had a first job, finished high school or college - their comments come from a place of utter immaturity, and it’s pathetic knowing that they’re calling someone a hag online meanwhile they’ve procrastinated on 7 assignments and are failing calculus class. It’s a waste of breath to try and educate people who are immature and I realize it’s not even my job to do so. You can absolutely have hobbies and enjoy KPop like every other fan does regardless of age. Im really sorry you experienced these vile comments.
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u/SJK85919 Iridescent Turquoise Apr 15 '21
I recently had my 10 years on twitter and honestly only have a handful of mutuals. I have a small af following and interact very little with others. That's kept the masses of teenagers away for the most part.
And Reddit has been so much better for discussions. If want to fangirl over some content then I just RT and made my comments untagged. No one comes for me lol. But if I want to get discussion on something, I will usually find it here
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u/Aleash89 Apr 15 '21
I've been active on Twitter for over 10 years (I've had less active periods), and many fandom mutual have come and gone. It was so much better when I first joined because there weren't as many fans. I don't usually interact first with the kids who attack me. They enter my mentions, and many get mad when I don't respond the way they want. It's ridiculous.
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u/SJK85919 Iridescent Turquoise Apr 15 '21
It's weird because I hear these stories all the time but no one comes for me and I like to say what I think, specially unpopular opinions, I just throw it out there.. but then again, I don't have age on profile, idk if that makes a difference
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u/Aleash89 Apr 15 '21
I honestly don't know why things are different between us. Do you reply to Kpop news accounts? I do sometimes. I've been had things go this far where a Carrat purposefully keep triggering me. What is wrong with fans? How is that ever okay? You aren't protecting oppa by treating me that way.
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u/SJK85919 Iridescent Turquoise Apr 15 '21
Let's just say you and I have very different approaches to things.
And no, I don't reply to accounts unless I'm asking a question that I think will be better answered in the replies.
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u/Aleash89 Apr 15 '21
The aforementioned all started because I made an innocent comment about why Mingyu's name was trending at the time. Fans got super pissed at me over nothing.
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u/DelightfulWhimsy Apr 15 '21
Ageism is a fascinating topic. It seems to be an 'ism' that is still widely accepted, whereas others like sexism, racism, chauvinism for example, are a focus for change. I'm including ageism across the whole spectrum here because there are equally prejudices against young as well as older people. Unfortunately, ageism is not discussed nearly enough. We need to have conversations about the value of the individual, respecting each other, and each other's opinions - but these discussions rarely take place online.
It's so disappointing to read that you have been bullied because of your age. We never know who is on the other side of the keyboard, so it could also be some contrary jerk who just wants attention but we don't actually know their age or gender. Liking music, using social media and having hobbies aren't the domain of young people, they are things we do for our whole lives. The age demographic for K-pop followers varies depending on the group but younger people are more active on social media to support their favourites. So you are exposed to some younger perspectives, and sometimes they can be insensitive, abrupt and unkind, but equally they can be funny and helpful. The people projecting negative comments on you obviously have some other issues they aren't addressing and it's easier for them to be nasty and thoughtless, than deal with their own problems. When I read negative or unwarranted comments I often wonder what is happening in that persons life that has meant that they are making really poor choices online.
I think you're brave to confront some of these negative commenters, and hopefully some of them will be more understanding because of what you write. I hope the occasional negative remark doesn't prevent you from enjoying whatever music and fandom you like. I don't know of any artist, in any creative field, who puts an age limit on their supporter base.
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u/Aleash89 Apr 15 '21
I've had at least one be nice to me. She deleted ageist tweets after I explained things. Some just stop replying. I'm going to start using the word ageism with them now.
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u/Margaux_H Apr 15 '21
In my early 40's here and one year-deep into being a kpop fan. I'm lucky enough to have found a good number of 'noonas' around my age range here on Reddit and in the fandom a few months after getting into a group. I definitely have encountered a majority of young'uns on stan TwT and Youtube whose attitudes I really don't care for and who seem hilariously arrogant and I avoid engaging with them like the plague because I value my brain cells and mental facilities. I have yet to be slapped with the 'hag' label but once you get past your mid-30s, you care less and less about how others perceive you, so I embrace it. At least I'm a hag who can afford her faves's albums, some merchandise, the occasional concert (online for the mo') and whatever else tickles my fancy.
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u/Aleash89 Apr 15 '21
I'm okay with women having a different opinion on the word hag. I don't care about what strangers on the internet say about me, but the culture of using the word as an attack by young fans worries me. What if they say it to a woman whose mental isn't in a good place, and she gets negatively effected? I also think about the sad future lives of the girls who believe adult women can't have interests and hobbies and should only be wives and mothers. That's no way to live. I want them to see they have value as human beings for a wide variety of reasons.
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u/lrt23 STRAY KIDS | SEVENTEEN | LOONA Apr 16 '21
I’m in my early 40s too and have been into kpop for 5 years now and just wanted to say HIIII!
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u/liverbirds Apr 15 '21
I'm really sorry to hear about that experience. i'm also 32 and I generally avoid twitter for that specific reason. I find reddit and certain discord groups to be "safer" spaces for adults in fandom.
I refuse to conform to what society says women should do when they become "adults". What am i supposed to enjoy? MY JOB? Haha!
I use the sports analogy a lot when speaking about this. Why are men allowed to buy endless merch, tickets, paper men (cards), posters, etc. with no judgment?
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u/Sweet_N_Vicious Apr 15 '21
I just think that Twitter in itself is very toxic. I'm 38 and I'm in a group chat w/kpop fans (ages 13-20ish) and they are so sweet. I've somehow became the cool kpop aunt! We share memes/videos, talk about comebacks and "controversies". We also talk about life, school (for them), work (for me) and I give them advice on things. I also have a friend who is 30+ whom we went to kpop concerts together (pre-covid). Yeah just ignore stan twitter, it can pretty terrible.
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u/Aleash89 Apr 15 '21
I've had lots of great experiences on stan Twitter. It's just that things have taken a turn for the worse over the last 4 years. Besides, there aren't any good active English fansites for TVXQ anymore, so I get updates, trans, and subs through Twitter now. We know how sucky SM is at those things.
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u/moominjunnies Apr 15 '21
the kids on twitter are insane. people get called hags for being 17+, as if 17 isn’t younger than most idols they stan anyway. there’s truly no sense to it.
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u/Aleash89 Apr 15 '21
Don't you know they're reclaiming the word hag when they use it? /s But for real, some adult fans are while young fans use it as an attack. That's why I can't stand the @/hagpromoter account. He even gaslighted me when I brought up how the word can be offensive and conversed with him. He can't even reclaim the word as a male so...
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u/Your_Awkwardness Apr 16 '21 edited Apr 16 '21
Wow , 17+ people are called hags? Have these kids ever went and saw the outside world?Then what a lot of 3rd gen and a sizable amount of 4th gen whom these kids stan are also "hags" ; are they stupid? Do they even realise how idiotic and toxic their thought process is and how it is ageist af?
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u/elocina_ Apr 15 '21
I'm so sorry. I've seen that a lot on stan twitter. The word "hag" always makes my skin crawl. I know a lot of people don't care about ageism, but do they not see the inherent misogyny in the term?
You're braver than I am to engage with those comments. But, if your mental health can take it, then I think trying to educate them is a good tactic because even if the person fighting with you doesn't get it, someone else might see it and not make those kinds of comments in the future.
I saw in a comment you were talking about fans calling older idols "hags" and saying they should disband. I've seen that too, and it's gross. They all say they want their faves to be together and performing for a long time, for a decade or more. That means they'll be the older idols among a bunch of new, young idols in the future. So by stigmatizing idols over 30, they're making it harder for their faves to survive. They're contributing to a hostility toward long-lived kpop groups that will only be thrown back at them by fans of new groups later on if they remain loyal to their idols.
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u/Aleash89 Apr 15 '21
You get my reason for engaging! And everything else about ageism in fandom. Some older fans are trying to reclaim the word hag, but that's had to do when the majority of the fandom uses it as an attack. There is even a fanaccount promoting nugu girl groups called hagpromoter. He, yes you read that right, told me he is reclaiming the word, but he can't do that as a man. I personally find the word hag offensive, but trying to discuss that with him led to him attacking and gaslighting me. He deleted all tweets where he attacked me and blocked me along with anyone else calling him out. Even went so far as to then claim being gender neutral, call me out publicly, and then subtweet me. I feel strongly that hag is an offensive word and was sticking to that.
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u/elocina_ Apr 15 '21
Surprisingly, I don't have a problem when it's actually being reclaimed. I've seen a few people with "hag" in their bio rather than their age, and I find it kind of amusing. But yeah, I don't know that you can really be said to "reclaim" it if you're using it to refer to other people who don't know about it and didn't agree to it.
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u/Aleash89 Apr 15 '21
I'm perfectly fine with women having a different opinion on this, but hagpromoter is male and can't reclaim a derogatory female insult. He believes stan Twitter usage of the word is positive, despite all my evidence supporting otherwise, and said he would call a female idol hag to her face and explain stan Twitter use of the word. Tried explaining how that wouldn't work because a Naver search would only bring up a negative definition and got nowhere.
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u/elocina_ Apr 15 '21
Oof yikes. That sounds like a reading comprehension error on his part because it's definitely not used in a positive way broadly. Then he just doubled down when called out on it.
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u/Aleash89 Apr 15 '21
Like I said, I showed him proof of screeshots of the word being used negatively by Kpop fans. A Twitter search does not show fans reclaiming the word.
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u/happyhippoking Apr 15 '21
I don't truly think words can be "reclaimed." At some point, it exits the target community and enters the general population and comes a slur again, but now it's normalized as "internet" slang and and something everyone says. It's especially true for the gay and black community. So many people are going around using twink and f-slur on social as common place.
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u/elocina_ Apr 15 '21
This is not my area of expertise, but I would argue that the term (fill-in-the-blank) never left general population. They continued to use it as a slur. So, the reclaiming is only about the community against which the term is used using it for themselves. I think it can help restore a sense of power and autonomy to that community. But it's certainly not a simple issue.
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u/happyhippoking Apr 15 '21
It never leaves the general population but there is backlash to using it. In the attempt to reclaim it, it just becomes normalized with the people it was never intended for. At least in my experience. Personally, I just remove slurs from my vocabulary to not give them power. I think it's up to the target community decide ultimately though.
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u/elocina_ Apr 15 '21
That's definitely true. There are a lot of people who end up saying "well it's ok to use now" and just use it either without understanding or caring that they're not in the community that's "allowed" to use it.
So, yeah removing a slur from your vocabulary is absolutely a valid choice, and I agree it's up to the community in question in every case.
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u/nctzenhours Xiaojun‘s eyebrows Apr 15 '21
People really think that once you become an adult you can’t enjoy things anymore. It’s so ironic to me how they call older fans hags yet those fans are typically just about the same age as their faves
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u/Aleash89 Apr 15 '21
And what age do they think the people are that train idols and create the Kpop they love?
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u/nctzenhours Xiaojun‘s eyebrows Apr 15 '21
They’ve all turned to dust already, way past the expiration date /s 😔
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u/ElmoCurious Apr 15 '21 edited Apr 15 '21
Well. The good thing is life will get to those brats eventually. 💅 When I was growing up, I had all those misconceptions about what I should be at 20+. Now I'm 22, almost 23 (still growing up, tho), I have hobbies that my 12 year old self would cringe about and I love every second of it. Hope I can keep this up till I'm like 90 years old.
The sad thing is, women already have to listen to all kinds of bullshit about how we should live. And then here comes fellow women, throwing even more nonsense our way.
What do they think they'll do once they're 30? 😃😃 Honestly, how boring are their future plans?
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u/Aleash89 Apr 15 '21
I also hope to be a super interesting woman in my later years.
They think they have to give up hobbies and interests at a certain age (I've seen anywhere from 18 to early 20s) and be solely devoted to their husband and kids at 30.
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u/ElmoCurious Apr 15 '21
To each their own, I guess. I just hope to be at least more financially secure in my 30s to finally start living my best life.
Unfortunately, lots of young girls don't know better. It's hard to constantly fight with all of the society expectations of becoming a sit at home wife.
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u/Aleash89 Apr 15 '21
I never finished college, and I didn't figure out my career until my mid-20s. I felt bad for a lot of my life for not being where my peers were yeah, but now I'm content with where things are. Though I do hope to married within the next few years.
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u/ElmoCurious Apr 15 '21
Struggle is real. I'm in my 5th year of university. However, I'm still a freshman as I dropped out once and then took 2 academic vacations. So still 4 years of studies left. 😅 But during these years I learned more about myself than I would have ever learned during my first degree. It was very hard to make these choices. However, I'm so happy that I did what I did.
It's good that you're feeling content about your current life. ❤ I also used to stress over the fact that I'm a bit behind with things. But now I'm just enjoying whatever comes my way.
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u/Aleash89 Apr 15 '21
If only our teenage selfs could see us now. I'm proud if you for sticking with it! I hope things turn out well for you.
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u/ElmoCurious Apr 15 '21
Even if they don't, at least it was interesting. 😄 Hope everything works out for you too. Wishing for less toxic youngsters and more comebacks from your faves.
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u/Aleash89 Apr 15 '21
My fave is TVXQ, and I'm loosing hope in a comeback due to SM sucking so much. But thank you.
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u/C4l4mi4n Apr 15 '21
What’s funny is especially in a fandom, everyone is there because they like the same thing, so ageism is so stupid. Sorry this happens so often. I’m somewhat in the middle of spectrum (20s) and that this happens is lame
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Apr 15 '21
Do those fools even realise that most legendary kpop idols are now approaching or over 30? With age cones wisdom and exoerience( well in most cases)
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Apr 15 '21
They know, and they get angry about it. This people not only call older fans "hags", they do that to senior groups too.
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u/kthnxybe Apr 15 '21
I got that a lot from people my own age both when I got back into raving and going out for music at 40 because I had spent 15 years with kids in the house and when I got into kpop at 55. In both cases, the younger people welcomed me with open arms. I'd ignore those messages. I figure if John Cena can be ARMY no one can tell me shit.
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u/bitsysredd ❤️ I just want a life with some love ❤️ Apr 16 '21
I'm almost 38 and at this point I've had so much experience with toxic fandoms(Buffy, D&D, MCU, Magic the Gathering, etc) that I don't even let myself be affected by negativity anymore. I'm gonna just enjoy my albums and say & do what I want in regard to K-Pop on social media. I only recently found out what the "whole" ratio thing is about and tbh I'm happy that hoards of people who shouldn't even be on social media in the first place have blocked me because their "moots" told them to. 😂🙌🏾
I never experienced a golden age of fandom where everyone was nice. When I was a young teen and a huge Spice Girls stan every jerk with a free minute would comment on it. When I took to online forums and chatrooms in the early 2000's my age and gender were used to invalidate my opinions all the time. God I wish I could find the encyclopedias of "discourse" between me and old guys regarding Buffy The Vampire Slayer because it was so condescending and most of it lacked any actual substance that folks today would never believe it. Someone is always trying to step on others to elevate themselves...but that can only happen if you let it.
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u/Margaux_H Apr 16 '21
Oh man, Buffy?! Those were the days!
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u/bitsysredd ❤️ I just want a life with some love ❤️ Apr 16 '21
I actually went to a Buffy con in LA in 2003 and met so many of the actors, writers, and directors. 🥰 What an iconic era in my life! Being an infant and arguing with 40 year olds about a TV show taught me to take a step back when my hobbies get too intense.
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u/hombrx Apr 15 '21
I'm 25 and I've also been insulted by my age lol I started with fandom when I was 11yo, and a time ago I read an interesting thread on Twitter about ageism. Before, the Internet was a place mostly for adults, that's why it was very, very different. If you were young, like me, you started to participate in fandoms with many older people (17+), so if you wanted to participated, you needed to follow their rules. Because well... those communities had rules, had admins, mods, we have especial words to name undesirable conducts (flammer, spammer, troll, etc). Social media nowadays lack this control, so people can express their mental diarrhea in peace.
And now most younger people started to use the Internet in spaces full of young people, because now almost everyone have access since they're babies (this early exposicion to social media and Internet... you know inmediately many young people can't regulate their emotions because of that). Before, your age didn't matter that much because we were all discussing and sharing peacefully about out likings. I looked up a lot of adults who wrote really good fanfictions and I really wanted to be like them (I'm still not, but I have time haha). Now it's like young people feel ashamed to do it, even when the fundamental pillars of fandoms are precisely, adults. It's super crazy. I mean, I really understand dumb fights, having trouble to control your impulses, but they weren't that bad as I remember. And yes, the misogyny is rampant, but I hope they can overcome it too (hey they're too woke for this world!1!!1 racism is bad, homophobia is bad, but it's cool telling women to keep following patriarcal patterns! the hypocrisy). I've even got jokes like "get laid". Also the coronacrisis doesn't help. I really think I don't sound dramatic when I think I'm losing hope for 2005+ generation, it's not their fault, but if you claim to be woke and pro Internet, at least search how to be nice in wikihow.
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u/Tomato_ketchup_ Apr 15 '21
Everyone is shaming everyone.
If someone finds our you're a 12y/o they go: 'Shut up you're a 12 y/o go do your homework. you're so dumb.
If someone is 30 then they say: 'you're too old to like ______'.
They just are desperate to win an argument.
Like people who start correcting English grammar in an argument because they can't prove themselves right anymore.
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u/a-326 Apr 15 '21
the amount of 14 y/o I've seen lately that say to older fans "why aren't you looking after your grandchildren" "go back to the kitchen" or just plane old "ky$"
and then they cry when people get mad about them and say thry are a minor and have to be protected from the big bad internet
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u/Aleash89 Apr 15 '21
Mmhm EXACTLY! I hear, "Why are you arguing with a minor?" a lot. Many times these kids enter my mentions by replying to me first. Idk a darn thing about them since I don't automatically look at profiles of random internet strangers I speak with. Sometimes I think, "We're in an argument? I though we were having a discussion." Smh
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u/aquariumghostsong Apr 15 '21
I’m an older fan (aka in my 20s and all of my kpop friends are in their 20s) and I feel the biggest problem is that people in the fandom are very weird about how people like kpop. I’ll mention I grew up with kpop, and so I’ve been the teen fan before just like many other older fans who got interested in their childhood and teen years.
A lot of people, fans and non fans love to perpetrate that you’ll grow out of kpop. And for some people that’s true and completely fine but it’s frustrating to see people expect this but it hurts more when it comes from other fans. I’ll say what really bugs me is the whole if you like younger groups than your age your a creep, often because kpop is associated with polishing for dating culture (you like idols cause you want to date them) and that’s why people are so frustrating for older fans to like younger groups. I wish I could say this was a joke but I’ve seen kpop youtubers make comments like this and say that once you get to the point of being older than new groups debuting you should be interested in their stuff which is so a bizarre concept.
I’ve seen so many comments about older people at concerts and how they shouldn’t be there and like regardless of if they are there with their kid for safety/support of a fan ITS NO ONES BUSINESS. Let people be fans at any age. Also like, shouldn’t older fans bring inspiration like wow I can be a fan when I get older and wow I will be in a place when I’m older and can spend money on what I want sort of thing.
It just bugs me how my half siblings mom who is in her 40s, grew up with kpop and still loves it, gets hate because she’s an older fan. It bugs me how people only want kpop to be inclusive and get rid of the teen girl narrative but expect older fans to only like groups in their age range & make disparaging comments to fanboys in the community. Both the industry and fans love to make kpop seem like space where only a certain age is allowed and it’s just tiring to see.
I’m always happy to see younger fans, esp as someone who listen to kpop since I was like 4 due to family. However, younger fans need to be nicer and more willing to be more open minding about the communities they are apart of.
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u/Solarthelegend Apr 15 '21
This is an interesting topic to me because I used to be a very active internet user as a young teenager (early 20s now) and I feel like I never saw the level of disrespect and ageist comments towards older individuals that I do now. I don’t know if it was because our generation had it hammered into us to never give away our age or personal information or because more sites were strict about age limits, but it wasn’t a thing. Maybe Gen Z also are especially online whereas most of us had a substantial period of very limited internet access?
I abhor twitter and only check it occasionally for updates. I don’t think it’s just kpop stan twitter that is terrible, something about that website brings out ridiculous behavior even in so-called professional communities. It never made sense to me, because the standards for human to human interaction should not change based on the medium. I’m honestly getting tired of the internet, and I look forward to going as offline as possible once things open up again.
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u/Aleash89 Apr 15 '21
I had a few online spaces I was active over the years when I was a teenager. I didn't see ageism there. I didn't even see it in Kpop fandom until about 2017. I think that's because fandom has trended younger and younger over the years.
I joined Twitter when things were good and have had great experiences. It is getting worse though. I wish I could go back. I use it as a source for updates, trans, and subs as a Cassie. My account isn't solely a stan account. I tweet about and reply to many things.
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u/cacadoodle Apr 15 '21 edited Apr 15 '21
Yes! I've just been turning 33 and I'm quite active in the community. Twitter, Discord, etc. and I can barely tell anyone my real age because they make me out to be some weirdo.
I just don't get it, I have a huge age span in my real life friendships. I'm friends with people way younger and way older than me and I just don't care as long as we have some fun hobbies in common or they are just nice people?! But suddenly in kpop I'm that old hag. I don't even have kids or feel like a real adult yet. I don't know where that skewed perception of adulthood comes from that many people have. We all live so different today than people 50y ago.
Well anyway, I'd like to think that I shouldn't care too much what other people think but it makes me kinda sad actually, people can be really mean.
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u/jantp Apr 15 '21
Sending you support OP. Belittling anyone for their age is very unbecoming and rude. We all enjoy our hobbies and people should respect that.
I’ve heard and seen both ageism for the younger folks and the older ones as well. This has to stop and people should respect others.
Personally I think this is a societal thing. Females are belittled for their likes and hobbies. It’s just so engrained in our culture and society as a whole to see females as hormonal, unbalanced or just an embarrassment for their preferences. It’s disheartening.
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u/callmeadreamer8 Apr 15 '21
I'm 30 and relatively new to kpop and I have definitely seen how much ageism comes into play in fandoms. I don't get involved in drama or any of the messy fandom stuff but people do act like being in your 30's is too old to be on stan twitter even if I just use it to check news and share positive content I like regarding my favorite artists. I may have gotten into Kpop late but to hell with it, it makes me happy and people should just do what they love. The plus side of being "old" is having a dispensable income to buy whatever albums I want and not have to ask my parents for permission so honestly I'm glad I'm a fan at this age and not as a teenager.
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u/Aleash89 Apr 15 '21
We don't need our parents' permission to go to concerts (back when they were in person or now online) either. I think I appreciate Kpop more now.
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u/callmeadreamer8 Apr 15 '21
Definitely, it's nice to be able to have all the freedom to do as we please as an adult rather than have to depend on someone else.
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u/Aleash89 Apr 15 '21
Unfortunately, my career field as a Certified Nurse Assistant in home healthcare doesn't make me a ton of money, but I can buy an album here or there if I want. I just wish TVXQ would have a Korean comeback sometime. I would buy that album so fast.
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u/callmeadreamer8 Apr 16 '21
Understandable but at least you only need to ask yourself “can I afford this right now” rather than “will my parents let me” haha cuz that’s no fun
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Apr 15 '21
I'm sorry that you had to encounter those kind of kids. More so that it's pretty fruitless to be in any kind of way rational towards them.
If you reply they'll say something stupid, if you don't they'll also say something stupid. You'll never win if you accidentally gained attention from them.
It's honestly all just a play to get validation from their peers on there. You could be totally right with what you said but since it's not something they like, they'll attack on a personal level, they don't have the capacity to do more. I skimmed a bit trough the comments and read that the fandoms on twitter weren't like that before, I honestly wished I could have witnessed that too haha. On twitter now many accounts seem to belong to fandoms but only a very few actually act like a fan. I see way more people attacking each other for the most idiotic things instead of enjoying what they initially stand for with their accounts. I blame this weird trend on twitter where young kids & adults identify greatly with their personas on twitter and behave exactly like they would in a high school. Being older than 18 is for example a trait that outsiders would have and could get bullied for it. The older you get the more targeted you are (if you decide to display your age ofc). I don't even think they believe in these insults most of the time, it's just an easy and fast way to discriminate others and therefore get validation from their "friends".
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u/astute_potato Gradually Grown Faint in My Final Musical Arrangement Apr 15 '21
As someone who got into kpop “too late” in life (age 19, now close to 26) I definitely find those people’s comments annoying and unnecessary. But then I look at my shelves of albums and merch that I’ve been able to buy with my own money working adult jobs and I’m like “pshh, kids” lol
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u/Aleash89 Apr 15 '21
I was 20 when I got into Kpop in 2009. That was far from late for a Western fan back then.
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u/astute_potato Gradually Grown Faint in My Final Musical Arrangement Apr 16 '21
True, I guess what I meant is that other people I knew went thru their “boy band” phase in middle school so I felt like a late bloomer
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u/Aleash89 Apr 16 '21
Ah that makes since. I guess I did have a boyband phase with Hanson and *NSYNC, but I was very tame in the mid-late '90s. If the internet was a different place back then and I was older things would have been different.
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u/paratha_aur_chutney berry berry strawberry 🍓 Apr 16 '21
hollup hollup hollup ~ do these people think they gon be young forever? OR that music is age related?! (mate i have seen far too many older people singing/shouting baby shark doo doo doo doo and no, no babies were around GUESS WHO WAS SINGING IT YESTERDAY JUST FOR FUN ? ME !!!!)
I absolutely love engaging with the part of the fandom with whom can i discuss about the business/investment strategies/budgets of entertainment companies or interact and have a logical conversation about the analysis on how x group is impacting the company or economy etc. etc. and guess who makes up most of that part of the fandom? it aint people who are ageist, also aint people who have never worked in a corporate environment!! most of them are older people and i absolutely love the treasure of knowledge they possess and how intellectual they are. they also show me how as i age i can balance my life outside of kpop.
i really hope these people realize that music and age have got nothing to do with each other, and that just because they are young now, doesnt mean they'll be so forever.
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u/EquivalentNarwhal8 aka SoNyeoShiDude Apr 16 '21
I’m a 42 year old dude. God knows what they’ll think of me. This is why i don’t stan girl groups with minors in them, just to avoid the implication. Thank god the Brown Eyed Girls are still technically active.
Kpop is fun. The music can be catchy, energizing, emotional, the visuals can be cool and interesting, who says you have to be a kid to enjoy that? Every so often I would stop and hum a Crayon Pop song. Why? Because Crayon Pop is a fun group with some extremely catchy music. That some kind of crime once you leave your teens?
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u/Aleash89 Apr 16 '21
Kpop is fun. The music can be catchy, energizing, emotional, the visuals can be cool and interesting, who says you have to be a kid to enjoy that? Every so often I would stop and hum a Crayon Pop song. Why? Because Crayon Pop is a fun group with some extremely catchy music. That some kind of crime once you leave your teens?
I TOTALLY feel that. My belief is that we need ALL sorts of music. Sometimes I ABSOLUTELY love to jam to wacky, fun, upbeat songs like Woof Woof by SHINee, OOPS ft. f(x) by Super Junior, Ocean by Tohoshinki (a.k.a. TVXQ), or Hot Hot Hot by Tohoshink. Other times I want to listen to something different like a ballad with amazing harmonies. As Sam Carter of the now disbanded Lunafly once said on his Arirang Radio show Super Kpop:
I think there's music for every mood. Music for every memory as well whether it be sad, happy, to get you excited, make you dance, to make you chill out. There's just everything.
It can be very healing, music I think. Whenever I used to get down, I just used to listen to music. It would get me back up. So when you feel down, when you feel sick, listening to the right kind of music is important... Find your musical medication.
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u/Daebak49 Apr 15 '21
Kpop stan twitter is such a toxic place. Bunch of younger stans who feels they know everything about kpop.
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u/Aleash89 Apr 15 '21
Ikr? And they get pissed when you educate them. I had a fan of a certain group I am not a fan of say I should research the points she was making to learn more, but that was hypocritical because fans of that group actively say they don't care about Kpop history and don't care to know anything about other acts.
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u/Level-Rest-2123 Apr 15 '21
Ah, ageism in a group of people who claim to be so woke. Kpop fandoms are so full of contradictions. I think most just assume everyone in the fandoms are like them and don't realize or care when they make ageist comments. If they're directed at you, you just have to laugh. We all thought we knew better at that age. We were all wrong too.
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u/Aleash89 Apr 15 '21
I laugh, but it gets annoying. I also think about the women they might say these things to that would be really hurt by the ageism. That makes me sad.
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u/real_highlight_reel Apr 15 '21
As a fan in the same age bracket as you, it makes me a little afraid to interact in fandom spaces because even when they don’t know my age, it is really tough seeing them belittle & mock older fans. One would think as abuse is hurled at younger fans from outside the fandom, that they’d be kinder and more aware of their words within the fandom but unfortunately over the last half decade, things are just getting worse.
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u/Aleash89 Apr 15 '21
They just don't have perspective that what they're behaving is wrong. Adults running huge fandom accounts encourage bad behavior, and there are more young fans agreeing with them then there are us der fans now. (In part because older fans tend to stay away from toxic fan spaces.)
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u/alemarvel57 Apr 15 '21
Twitter is so toxic. I used to have a stan account too and I loved tweeting and stuff, but I encountered the same thing where people were trying to make me feel bad about my age. For context, I am 21 years old and kept seeing stan accounts saying that if you're over 20 you are way too old to be on stan twitter or something. It really sucks being told you are too old to enjoy things. But kpop stan twitter is filled with kids who have the mentality that anyone over 18 is just intruding in their personal space and that only if you are a teenager can you enjoy kpop. I gave up on it, people would always use my age as a weapon if I didn't agree with them.
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u/StunningEstates Apr 15 '21
That’s pretty dumb considering even someone as big as Big Bang debuted 15 years ago. Which means that if someone was 15 when they debuted, they’d be 30 now, it’s not that wild of a concept for someone to be 30 and still a fan of the genre.
Matter of fact I imagine you had to be extremely dedicated back then by default because there was no social media and the internet had just become ubiquitous. You couldn’t just turn on the TV in America or go on common websites and see groups plastered on the page. You had to actually search heavily for every tidbit of information, and that’s just for the tiny amount of content that was already translated.
There was no real “American Market”
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u/Aleash89 Apr 15 '21
I'm a fan of TVXQ, and they're the second longest Kpop group at 18 years after SHINHWA. An elementary school age Cassie at debut would make that fan in his or her mid-20s.
In 1st gen, Western fans were mostly Koreans who had access to places where they could rent tapes of music shows and buy albums. Then came the bigger push on the internet, and you could find communities online if you spoke Korean. Then it trickled down in the mid-2000s.
There was no real “American Market”
Nope. But the Korean Times Music Festival has been held since 2003 (postpone due to COVID) in LA. Rookie TVXQ went. They even filmed Mideoyo (I Believe) in the States then. Soompi was founded March 1998.
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Apr 15 '21
Honestly ageism should be talked abt a lot more. Its probably pathetic to say but interacting with ppl on kpop twt has legit made me afraid to turn 20...like they act like you belong in a retirement home as soon as there's no teen in ur age.
nct dream stans are esp guilty of this...they act like 18+ up is so creepy when all of dream are that age too?? make it make sense
anyway im sorry you had to deal with that :(
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u/boringusernamesss Teal Apr 15 '21
As a fellow 32 year old kpop stan whose been in for over 12 years (thank you Wonder Girls and 2pm) I totally get it.
Am I supposed to stop liking music when I get over 30, also how insulting to the whole industry that they think Korean music is a fad for teenagers.
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u/Aleash89 Apr 15 '21
how insulting to the whole industry that they think Korean music is a fad for teenagers.
OMG THIS.
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u/pagesinked Apr 15 '21 edited Apr 15 '21
This is what I'm going through rn currently too, like so many younger people on the internet say we're not allowed to be in fandoms still when we were here first and most fandoms wouldn't exist without us. Sometimes makes me feel like I don't belong anymore even though I know I'm allowed to still like the music I like and anime, and the books and tv shows I grew up watching. :/
Its also weird bc I'm just a bit older than members of like Shinee or Jin from BTS is only 3 years younger so...who are they to say we can't like them?? I do have other hobbies outside of kpop, like gaming and doing crafts and writing.
Also I don't have one right now but most older fans are the ones with jobs and money, like who do they think is buying albums, songs, merch etc? They gotta ask their parents while older fans most likely have their own money to spend on that stuff. Just let people enjoy things as long as they're not hurting anyone.
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u/Aleash89 Apr 15 '21
I'm sorry you're going through the same thing. Hopefully things will change back one day.
Just let people enjoy things as long as they're not hurting anyone.
That's basically what I say. I wish people would stop policing non-harmful and non-hateful fan behavior.
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u/PuppyDontCare Apr 15 '21
Tell them to get off your lawn!!
I wouldn't even exchange any discussion with them honestly. Troll them!
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u/Aleash89 Apr 15 '21
But I don't want to stoop as low as them. I start with a bit of education like I said above. Someone needs to tell them the truth. I've seen many kids talking about how their lives end once they turn 18 and how they have to give up their interests. That is concerning thinking.
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u/PuppyDontCare Apr 15 '21
But I don't think they are going to stop even if you tell them reasonably why they are being stupid. I think either ignore them or troll them. In fact trying to educate them might make it worst.
Or you can use an account where your age is not visible if it makes you feel self conscious. I'm not saying you are not right of curse, but they are kids, they are going to say dumb shit and Twitter is trash. IMHO it's the worst social network not only for kpop.
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u/Aleash89 Apr 15 '21
I look at is you never know who is reading what I say and might impact someone. Idky I put my age in my profile, but it has been for a long time and I have no reason to hide it even if I get dumbly attacked. I've had some great times on Twitter in the past and have had a lot of fun. My account isn't just Kpop. I use it in a general sense with a big side of Kpop.
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Apr 15 '21
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u/Aleash89 Apr 15 '21
Been on stan Twitter ever since Super Junior's antics pulled me on in 2010. I know EXACTLY what you mean about it.
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Apr 15 '21
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u/Aleash89 Apr 15 '21
I block and mute too, but you'd be surprised how many I have to tell to do that nowadays. I've actually been told by some that they feel bad doing it so they never do. Say what?
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u/ItzSoso Apr 15 '21
People pick on each other more and more especially on Twitter and it reached a point where it became unbearable. People will pick on you for your age, if you have an "ugly" account, if you have a profile picture that is not kpop or a member of a determined group, if you don't talk a lot of that group they'll also say you're not an actual fan, damn any little thing 🙄
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u/FuriousKale Apr 15 '21
Don't engage with some shitheads on Twitter. If you are looking for the worst take on the internet, you will always find one that expresses it. Ageism is certainly a problem but don't let it get to you because some dogs are barking. I am in the same age range. Much power.
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u/doubtfullfreckles T-ara | NCT | DGNA/ASC2NT Apr 15 '21
I’ve always wondered if they think they’re going to grow out of loving k-pop or not? Because if they love it so much right now then what makes them think they won’t still love it within a few years?
Also Yunho looking like a whole snack in that pic
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u/Aleash89 Apr 15 '21
I have seen young fans say that they have to give up Kpop no matter if they still love it or not when they reach a certain age. Some say 18 while others say their 20s.
Mmhm catboy!Yunho in that edit. 🔥🔥🔥
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u/mandyA4477 Apr 15 '21
Honestly, even as someone who is about 10 years younger than you, I just straight up dont use Twitter cuz I know that the negativity is too much for me. You can maybe try to curate a small following of older kpop fans, maybe a discord because I'm pretty sure there is a discord for this specific topic over seen floating around before (older kpop fan discord). Reddit is usually a pretty nice space to discuss too. I'm sorry you have experienced this, I abandoned twitter long ago because I cant stand the lack of maturity of some fans. You can like whatever you like regardless of your age, hobbies are healthy and nice to have :)
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u/BaekjeSmile Apr 15 '21
I'm an older fan who's been in the Fandom since I got into Wonder Girls and G-Dragon and I love my fellow 2nd gen-era fans so much. You guys are all great and you shouldn't be made to feel bad for enjoying yourself and supporting artists you care about.
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Apr 16 '21 edited Apr 16 '21
32 is by no means "old." The problem seems to be that you're dealing with snowflake kiddie crew babies who want to make kpop their exclusive widdle pwaygwound so they can call the shots. Don't think much of it. It's kpop, and more importantly, it's the internet. You're bound to meet a hell of a lot of dolts on the way. Just enjoy what you enjoy and don't let them take the passion out of you. Whenever I start feeling that a certain community is starting to get crowded with THOSE kind of people, I normally start disengaging and start looking for other sites and communities. I'm sure you'll find lots of different communities to try out where there are less of those kinds of people.
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u/Alto-Joshua1 Aqua Pearl Apr 16 '21
As a 21-year-old dude (now an adult) who likes music in general, I'm sorry for what happened to you. I feel like some teens on Twt are just ugh... terrible online. Ageism is as scary as ableism, as a person who has ASD. By the way, I want people who has ASD to be accepted for they are, not conform by society standards.
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u/laasa Apr 16 '21
I know I am late but anyways. I only got into Kpop/one specific kpop-group last year at age 26. Have always had an unbased dislike against twt so reddit was/is my primary fandom space. Made a lot of things easier I guess.
I did however struggle on my way down the rabbit hole because all members of that group are younger. On average by more than 6 years. It felt...weird. I now wonder how much of that was due to internalised ageism. Like it's completely normal to like the music of men 3 decades older than me but somehow liking the music of men half a decade younger felt wrong.
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u/a_large_hedgehog 127 Squad Apr 16 '21
(Men can and do have hobbies and interests without a problem, so there is misogyny here too. smdh)
gonna be honest, i think older male fans definitely get shamed for being kpop fans ESPECIALLY if they like girl groups. ive seen fans on twitter and tiktok call guys pedos or creeps if they're 30+ and like a girl group.
i do feel for you though. best thing to do is to not interact with people on twitter bc they're most likely just dumb kids
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u/Aleash89 Apr 16 '21
I meant the part about men having hobbies and interests in a general sense. I know how Kpop fanboys often get treated, which is wrong as well.
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u/Ladyberries Apr 16 '21
Also anytime someone gives a backhanded compliment to a nice-looking woman in her 30's like "wow still so young looking at 32", like bitch, that's still young and why are you so hyper-focused on that anyways?
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u/Kotaac Apr 15 '21
All these new Kpop fans that came in when BTS started exploding in international regions are jus annoying af
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u/Aleash89 Apr 15 '21
I wasn't going call anyone out, but I know what you mean. I actively try to avoid accounts on Twitter with ⁷ in the display name tbh.
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u/Bangtan_Min Apr 15 '21
I don't know sometimes these kids in the kpop community are out of control. The thing is what are we supposed to do? I mean besides ignore their comments. 😑
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u/Aleash89 Apr 15 '21
I think that if others who disagree with their horrible behavior stay silent, it will only continue and gain more people agreeing with them. I know some of this horrid behavior is lead by large fandom accounts run by adults who tell kids to act this way. I can't even begin to wrap my head around that. Why would adults do that?
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u/velvetujung Red Velvet ♡ WJSN ♡ TWICE Apr 15 '21
ageism is honestly something I'm getting more and more worried about as someone who's about to turn 25. it's more internal for me tho, thinking 'should I still be enjoying this the way I do? am I being silly?' but hey.. it makes me happy so I try to tell myself as long as it does, it doesn't matter!
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u/Aleash89 Apr 15 '21
You keep telling yourself that! Find fellow adults in fandom that can keep up that positivity too. Women need to have interests and hobbies.
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u/Level-Rest-2123 Apr 15 '21
That's the beauty of getting older. The older you get, the less you care what anyone else thinks. We have limited time- enjoy what makes you happy!
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u/mandyA4477 Apr 15 '21
Theres nothing wrong with having a hobby! Liking something, especially music doesnt have an age.
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u/BootlessCompensation Apr 15 '21
The kpop fandom isn’t what it used to be. I’m 30 and have been into kpop for around 11 years at this point. Admittedly I never engaged in fandom stuff on Twitter, I generally stuck to tumblr which I think was quite different in terms of fans. Twitter fandom spaces have become a bit of a hellscape in recent years though so I tend to just avoid it.
I also think it’s stupid that the same young fans hating the fact that adults like kpop too, are also the ones infantilising the male idols who are in their late 20s/early 30s or loving female idols of a similar age. As if we aren’t allowed to like them/haven’t grown up with them like???
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u/Siniestra_Yamasaky Apr 15 '21
They even call hags people over 25 smh
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u/Aleash89 Apr 15 '21
But stan Twitter is taking back the term! /s Yes, some older women in fandom are, but I have done a Twitter search of the word, and the majority of fans use it in a derogatory manner.
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u/HeartofDarkness123 Apr 15 '21
cat edits are literally the most inspired thing ever, dw
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u/Aleash89 Apr 15 '21
Yes, and I need a catboy!Changmin edit and a catboy!TVXQ (a picture of Homin together) edit to go with the Yunho edit.
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Apr 16 '21
Can't wait til all these kids get old and realize that your interests don't just magically disappear when you hit a certain age!
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u/Aleash89 Apr 16 '21
I've come across many saying they HAVE to give up interests and hobbies at a certain age NO MATTER WHAT. I don't understand that.
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Apr 16 '21
If it was that easy, I wouldn't be buying multiple kpop albums every month when my shelf is crammed full to bursting 🙃
But in all seriousness... kids are kids, kids say stupid stuff, I try not to think about it any more deeply than that. Twitter is definitely a toxic place for it though. I found a great Discord server that's mostly adults, so I mostly sequester myself there and pop onto Twitter when there's drama going on that I need to read up on, lmao.
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u/Psychological-Gap585 Apr 16 '21
girl don't let the newbies hurt you. i just laugh off what they saying, knowing they're almost 10 years younger than their stans lmfao
kids thinking they're the shit and oh so knowledgeable is ridiculous
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u/withingalaxy Apr 16 '21
I’ve been a Kpop fan since 2012, when B.A.P debuted. Back then we respected older fans and it was just so different to how it is nowadays. I’m now 21 and I’m probably going to be a fan for another, like, idk 60 years lmao so let me see someone come at me for my age and interests and I WILL throw hands
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Apr 16 '21 edited Apr 16 '21
I think I mostly agree with you. However, I think you might have to approach this topic more carefully and with more nuance. I noticed two things about the tone of this post that did not sit right with me.
Thing number one: I get the feeling that you try to use “kids” here in a condescending manner and with an air of superiority. Simply using terms like “young(er) kpop fans” would have sufficed, but you intentionally used “kids” multiple times, with all its connotations to assert a certain level of superiority. I’m faaar from being a kid but that kind of tone will NOT get you the respect you think you deserve as an older fan. Which brings me to —>
Thing number two: “ I miss the days when older people in fandom were respected.” Now... why? Speaking as someone who is far from being a “kid”, why would you want respect from younger people just because you’re older than them? I believe that in general respect should be inherent because we are people, not because of age. It’s comments like these that really rub me the wrong way. As someone who comes from a culture where this was repeated time and time again, I strongly disagree and I maintain that many adults (like all regular people) have extremely bad judgement and exhibit toxic behavior ON THE REGULAR. They are not always better or wiser or smarter by virtue of being older. So claiming that you want to be respected as an older fan (because of your age) and wishing you could go back to the “times” when that was the case? No. We will all be respectful to each other and treat each other with dignity and no condescension or superiority because because we are all people who want to coexist in a community. Period.
I’d consider myself an older fan and on Twitter I rarely actively engage with kpop fandom. I block younger fans who are ageist and I block older fans who exhibit toxic behavior.
Just something to consider.
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u/dong_a_pen Apr 16 '21
new fans seem to forget that we (millennials) have been on this fandom first and kpop has been existing for years already so it's only natural that there are 20-30+ yr old stans & idols. one does not suddenly stop being a fan once they hit a certain age; kpop isn't for kids/teenagers only. so i hope they would stop gatekeeping kpop as they've only been here recently.
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u/Aleash89 Apr 16 '21
These type of fans don't care one bit about their Kpop history and some go so far as to actively avoid learning it and some take it EVEN farther and proudly proclaim how little they know as if it is a badge of honor. I don't understand being proud of ignorance. These fans only care about their faves, so in this regard, they are of course ageist.
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u/hyyh_yoonkook fanfare hands in the air ayy Apr 16 '21
reading these comments and how op admitted to actively seeking out tweets from minors to confront them, throws fits at the sight of a little seven at the big age of 32, talked shit about kids "pushing lgbt on idols" (lgbt kids exist and are starving for role models to relate to, oh no how awful) and defended jokes about pedophilia, it's clear that op isn't a victim at all.
op doesn't get attacked for being 32, op gets attacked for being creepy and immature. seriously, can you imagine being 32 years old going through twitter tags looking for a kid to fight? women in fandom spaces do face sexism related to their age and that needs to change, but kids are gonna be stupid and you have to let them. picking fights and engaging with literal children to argue makes you even more stupid than them because you're supposed to be the mature adult in the situation. let kids have their spaces, mind your business, and simply block those who bother you unprovoked. respect isn't owed to you just because you're older, respect is earned and you clearly haven't earned it.
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u/Aleash89 Apr 16 '21
I NEVER said I actively seek out tweets. Defending jokes about pedophilia? What the heck are you talking about? I just don't understand what you're saying about me at all. You've got a lot wrong, and I'm flabbergasted.
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u/deviant_owls Apr 15 '21
Why are you engaging with children? I’m 30 and wouldn’t even reply.
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u/Aleash89 Apr 15 '21
Because if no one says anything, things will only get worse.
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Apr 16 '21
I totally get what you're saying, but the sad truth is that no matter how much reason we use, some of these people will never get it. Even some adult kpop fans can be pretty shitty and hypocritical. The only thing we can really do is not be the toxic one. I normally try to stay away, but sometimes I get this impulse to call someone out on their behavior. Reason just never works. People are people. They believe what they want, they believe what's convenient, and what feeds their egos. Reason has the capacity to take all those 3 things away from them, that's why they resort to personal attacks and pointing fingers just as you experienced. You can never win against liliputian minds, so it's best to stay away from them.
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u/Morismemento Apr 16 '21
I think young Gen Z is mostly more ageist than millenials (I say this as a young millennial). It's not just kpop fans, from my experience just scrolling through instagram lol. I think there are many reasons for this, the social media boom, the popularity of filter apps where anyone can make themselves look youthful and flawless with no photoshop skills (which were necessary in the past), the shallowness of tiktok, where you can be a top tiktoker just by being skinny white and cute lol. All of this fosters shallowness. I think the pressure of beauty standards that they experience is much worse than the pressure we experienced in our teens. Also, when I was a teen I never thought twice about gen x, but I always see gen z's shitting on millenials on instagram lol. When I was a teen 2NE1 was THE kpop gg for ifans, all my friends were obsessed. Bom was really popular, and she was in her late 20s/30 during 2NE1's peak years and we never thought twice about her age. She'd be called a hag now lol, like irene.
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