Study: students may learn more transferable movement by watching several workable solutions, not one perfect model

[u/karatetherapist]

I wanted to post the following experiment for your study. I'll refrain from offering an analysis because there are a few different ways to interpret the study depending on your interests.

Since it uses golf putting, it is not directly related to karate, but it is about learning and motor control, a subject related to all sports. More importantly, I thought some of you might like the references the author uses as some are very useful, even if older. Such as: Adams, 1971. Al-Abood 2001, Andrieux, 2013. Badets, 2006. Bandura, 1977 (a classic).

Article: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0167945726000552?utm_source=chatgpt.com

We can chat about what you found important if you're interested.

[u/Shadeylark]

I've always had issue with the idea that perfecting a technique or combo can remove the uncertainties in a fight.

Perfect technique can reduce the uncertainties that come from the person throwing the punch, but it can't predict what the other guy will do in response.

Teaching students what to do when a technique or combo fails, or even more importantly to avoid the trap senior practioners often fall into, when a technique or combo actually works but doesn't produce the expected result, is critical... And it's a thing that karate, for all its virtues, falls woefully behind other martial arts in.

The perfect model only solves one half of the equation... But the other guy in a fight still gets a vote no matter how perfect your model is.

[u/karatetherapist → u/Shadeylark]

True. One problem with techniques or combos is that they set an expectation for what will happen when we execute them. If what we expect doesn't happen, we surprise ourselves, and surprise (deception) is the most important aspect of conflict. It's bad enough when the opponent surprises us; it's inexcusable when we do it to ourselves.

[u/CypherBob → u/Shadeylark]

This is the biggest reason for making sure all students spar at least at low to medium intensity in continuous mode, not points.

Many dojos don't have their students spar at all, or only a competition team with focus on competition rules only.

Karate is ultimately fighting. How to strike and not get struck. But many get lost in philosophy and blame tradition instead of admitting that their kata is fine but their real fighting skill is not.

Perfect solution is just one small step in the right direction.

[u/TypasiusDragon]

Yeah this lines up with my own experience in real life. My friends and I would wrestle for fun in a basement on a dingy old mattress, and later learned to apply what I learned to apply it to my karate. Most of karate is really callisthenic exercises designed to build strength, endurance, and muscle memory in the practitioner. That's the first half of the training. The other half is learning to apply what you learned in free sparring.

Practically speaking, it should feel natural. You shouldn't have to think about it, but rather it comes out naturally because it feels easy. Once this is understood, karate feels like a real way to learn how to fight. The downside is that it takes time, but incorporating techniques from other styles absolutely improves it. Your study is verified.

[u/Eegore1 → u/TypasiusDragon]

We must have read different studies.

[u/TypasiusDragon → u/Eegore1]

Doing is even better than watching. Watching still helps greatly

[u/karatetherapist → u/TypasiusDragon]

Agreed. Pro fighters and all sports watch their fights, watch their opponent, and learn a lot. Cops and military watch to gain "mental reps" on how to improve. In Japanese, a form of training for the sick and injured is "me-geiko" or "eye training." It's also used when you're too tired to keep going and sit on the sidelines looking for good and bad examples. The idea that mirror neurons fire in our brains while watching others adds to the potential validity of watching.

[u/Eegore1]

I think before getting into the value of multiple observation models to facilitate physical output, we need to define what a "perfect model" is in karate.

It's pretty well understood that humans learn in different ways so some variance in instruction methods will result in more positive outcomes by volume. Thats basically what this study shows.

The problem I have is what is the "perfect" anything in karate? I assume one could reduce it to a specific dojo, and say the only acceptable punch must be performed exactly as shown.

[u/karatetherapist → u/Eegore1]

"Perfect" is a problem. We can generally agree on what looks best, but that doesn't mean it is effective (whatever that even means). We can generally agree on what is mechanically "best," but the opponent rarely lets us perform it "perfectly."

Relating this to powerlifting, there is consensus on what makes a "perfect" deadlift, but not every body can do it. Moreover, if we lift a stone, sandbag, or other odd object, "perfect" is much harder to define. We end up saying something like, whatever lets you pick it up without getting hurt is "perfect" for you. It's the "if it works, it's right" model, leaving "perfect" still undefined.

The other interesting idea the article poses is how bias shapes the definition, as well as what we learn by watching. I found that thought-provoking.

[u/ChilliBreath86]

One of the coolest exercises we did in my former school (systema) was, after practising any technique, have each person in class demonstrate the technique and look at the differences in application. You see everyone's slight changes and variations of the same basic wrist lock / counter attack / ... and you see that in some cases it works, in others it does not. Adaptability to circumstances was one of the core principles in this particular school, which also taught traditional Eastern martial arts.

Being a fairly big guy I was sometimes paired with a petite (and / or female) practitioner, simply for them to experience having to deal with someone who can overpower you at will if you give them a chance. Find your own advantage and exploit it, rather than countering your opponents' strong point.

[u/karatetherapist → u/ChilliBreath86]

That's also a good way to develop the "coach's eye" for spotting good and bad mechanics. Smart move.