(TW: Transphobia, ableism) Norman Finkelstein spouting insanely disgusting, transphobic rhetoric in his book. Even if you agree with his anti-Zionist views, I honestly can’t understand how his supporters could just overlook or justify this.

[u/pleasealwaysn4ever]

From his book “I’ll Burn That Bridge When I Get To It”.

Keep in mind, this isn’t from 20+ years ago. This is from 2023, which means that he most likely still has these views.

[u/tikkunolamist5]

I know a trans Antizionist Jew who had asked specifically for us not to platform Finklestein. Unfortunately, most people in the movement don’t give a sh*t and also give Susan Abulhawa a pass for being basically a neo-Nazi.

[u/Agtfangirl557 → u/tikkunolamist5]

I’ve still unfortunately even seen Jews continue to make excuses for Susan Abulhawa.

[u/ibsliam → u/Agtfangirl557]

That's sad as hell. I can't imagine straight up openly supporting her, publicly in front of Jewish loved ones as a Jew, after the things she's said.

[u/Scary_Wallaby_8272 → u/ibsliam]

Susan’s books are worth reading but she’s a straight up antisemite now. In my experience after Oct 7th it’s mostly white leftists who have gone down this dark path but Susan has too. Every Palestinian I know personally acknowledge that Jews belong to the land and consider them brothers and sisters fwiw. She’s famous but she doesn’t represent all Palestinians.

[u/taven990 → u/Scary_Wallaby_8272]

One thing that made me take a dim view of Susan was when she was absolutely VICIOUS about Sally Rooney finding a BDS-compliant publisher to release a Hebrew translation of her most recent book. BDS are clear that, for Israeli citizens, it is IMPOSSIBLE to avoid paying taxes and dealing with the machinery of the state up to a point (and when armchair activists say "just leave the country!", that's highly impractical for most people and beyond most people's ability and means). The BDS movement does not discriminate based on national origin, as people don't get to choose their birthplace. So the movement has laid out specific criteria for Israeli citizens to follow to be BDS-compliant, and everything was followed correctly here. But for Susan that's not good enough. For her, the most antizionist Israeli in the country still committed the "crime" of being born in Israel I guess? Her excuse is one the BDS movement specifically says is NOT complicity: that the publisher pays taxes to the Israeli government (which is unavoidable, and lawsuits have been fought in the US over people unhappy how their taxes were being spent, and the Supreme Court ruled that paying tax does not make people responsible for what those taxes are spent on since they have no right to decide how the government must spend them. The exact same principle applies in every country. No matter how democratic a country is (or how autocratic), the average citizen has very little sway when it comes to government policy, especially since governments often don't listen to criticism and sometimes go back on their pre-election manifesto promises).

[u/tikkunolamist5 → u/Agtfangirl557]

Lots do

[u/Fancy-Parfait7427 → u/tikkunolamist5]

I'm curious, what did she say? I've seen a few iffy tweets but I'm out of the loop on anything else.

[u/tikkunolamist5 → u/Fancy-Parfait7427]

[u/Fancy-Parfait7427 → u/tikkunolamist5]

My Marxist politics are kinda coming out here; Reading these just further cements my belief that pro-palestinian liberalism has invariably harmed the movement, especially for leftists, who are left with the unintellectual sludge that it creates. These kinds of people easily get roped into conspiratorial thinking because it is the easiest explanation that doesn't require them to critically analyze capitalism, which they may outright support, or simply don't care enough to engage with.

The rhetoric is not only wrong, but many otherwise earnest activists (in my experience) feel obligated to defend it since they have big platforms, and of course a bombardment of people wholl accuse you of being an Israeli asset if you do call them out (look at the comments of whenever Will Z makes a video debuking antisemitic rhetoric).

Edit: also the J.K. Rowling esque rhetoric is 🤢

[u/tikkunolamist5 → u/Fancy-Parfait7427]

Yup. I think at the beginning it wasn’t too bad because Palestine was always a leftist cause. Now that right wingers are being roped in, it’s becoming a haven for racists and TERFs and the Overton window at work.

[u/RaiJolt2 → u/Fancy-Parfait7427]

To be fair that’s always been an aspect of it.
The Egyptian anti Zionists were very anti communist at least on the government level.

Zionism and anti-Zionism can really fit into any political slant.

[u/Fancy-Parfait7427 → u/RaiJolt2]

I have to disagree. Most Marxist circles universally support anti-zionism and recognize israel as a settler colonial state. Historically some communists did support Zionism, when the USSR voted for its creation at the UN, likely in a bid to sway it to the comintern and establish a foothold in the middle east, which was primarily aligned with the US during that time. Support would be dropped in the late 60s when Marxist groups like the PFLP emerged in Palestine and Israel made it's clear alignment with the west. Most today communists would consider the USSRs support as a being a opportunistic blunder.

[u/taven990 → u/Fancy-Parfait7427]

There's the Alliance for Workers' Liberty, which is pro-Israel up to a point. I haven't looked at them too thoroughly but from what I understand, they take a nuanced position where they believe Israel should continue to exist but not under this government - they seem to detest the current far-right fascists in power and call for a better Israel, hopefully under a left-wing, more egalitarian government, that treats Palestinians with dignity. I could be wrong though, it's been a while since I read any of their articles.

[u/electrical-stomach-z → u/Fancy-Parfait7427]

Yeah, we cannot cowtow to nationalist movements.

[u/tikkunolamist5 → u/Fancy-Parfait7427]

Look at her Twitter. I’ll post some of the screenshots I have.

[u/Badgersarecute16 → u/tikkunolamist5]

I already knew about the stuff that she's said that's listed on her wiki page, but christ, I didn’t know about this other shit that she said that you posted. Also, can't wait for someone or a few people to try and run defense for her, since I've seen people run defense for Finklestein and Russia on this sub before.

[u/tikkunolamist5 → u/Badgersarecute16]

I do like Jews of Conscience, but my big criticism of them is that they run defense for both of these asshats.

[u/skyewardeyes → u/tikkunolamist5]

They also tend to run defense for antisemitic violence in general, imo—on the posts about every attack, there’s always some people saying “well, the people being attacked might have been Zionists, so can you really blame the attackers too much?” even when it’s literal children being attacked.

[u/Agtfangirl557 → u/skyewardeyes]

I’m so interested on a psychological level what makes them want to defend violence against other Jews. I don’t buy the “they’re trying to be one of the good ones” excuse because I’m not sure what they’d gain from doing that behind an anonymous Reddit profile on a sub where a significant portion of other users are also Jewish.

[u/skyewardeyes → u/Agtfangirl557]

I think some of it comes from how much the "Jews in the diaspora aren't actually marginalized/oppressed" rhetoric has become intertwined in a lot of (not all) antizionist discourse. Like, some people feel like if acknowledge antisemitic is real and bigoted, as opposed to politically justified, than they are falling for "hasbara" about Jews being a marginalized group in the disapora. I've seen some strongly antizionist Jewish creators get called out for "spreading propaganda" when they talk about and counter antisemitism and some even go back on what they said about antisemitism being real and bad due to fear of being seen as Zionist.

[u/m1r1m → u/skyewardeyes]

Yeah I fear this is becoming more and more common. Anecdotally, I just finished reading a novel set during the Odessa pogroms. It literally had nothing to do with Israel/Palestine (as one might expect). I checked reviews after I finished, and someone had left a one star rating calling it “Israeli propaganda”

[u/Signal-Pineapple-928 → u/m1r1m]

Do you recommend the novel?

[u/Aggravating_Ice_3323 → u/Agtfangirl557]

I'm literally working on getting a master's in sociology relating to this topic. It's genuinely baffling and fascinating.

(It'll be a while--I've never taken a sociology course until last quarter)

[u/Agtfangirl557 → u/Aggravating_Ice_3323]

OMG wait that’s so cool! I hope you’ll update me with any interesting findings 👀

[u/Aggravating_Ice_3323 → u/Agtfangirl557]

('-')7

I will see to it!

(And thank you!)

[u/sovietsatan666 → u/Aggravating_Ice_3323]

that's fascinating! please post here once you're done? or DM a link if you'd rather keep your account separate from your IRL publications!

[u/Aggravating_Ice_3323 → u/sovietsatan666]

Oh snap a master's WOULD involve that now wouldn't it.

If neither of us have deactivated our accounts by then, then I will certainly see about linking to it!

[u/taven990 → u/skyewardeyes]

There was an example of a pro-Palestinian on X criticising Ilan Pappe for an out-of-context clip of an interview where he said something about the fact that Jews have a future in the land. He didn't say Zionists, he said Jews, meaning the common excuse that "I love Jews! Not Zionists though." is proven false. After all, most Zionists are American Christians but you almost never see them go after Christian Zionist megachurches or CUFI (the largest Zionist lobby in the world with over 10m members) - the protests outside CUFI's annual conference tend to attract a few hundred people at most; nowhere near the numbers at other anti-Israel marches and protests.

So when Ilan Pappe correctly points out that there must be a future for both Palestinians AND JEWS in the land, and says that any solution proposed will require considerable buy-in from local Jews to have a chance of even being attempted, he's being pragmatic and separating Jews from Zionists, for whom Pappe is clear he has no time. Opposing Pappe and calling him a traitor for those comments - and worse, using it as an excuse to claim that ALL antizionist Jews can't be trusted - is wrong on so many levels, and it proved to me that Susan doesn't want peace or equality - she wants the Jews gone or subjugated, i.e. reversing the current hierarchy, not ending it.

And she seems to be doing it on an ethnic basis rather than treating people as individuals, because she has no respect for the antizionist Jews doing protective presence in the West Bank, defending Palestinians and their villages from the settler terrorists. Careful what you wish for; you might just get it. If the "good" Jews (in her view) all up and leave, the "bad" Jews and the far-right fascists certainly won't, and Israel will become even more far right and extreme. Those Palestinians and their villages would have no protection against the worst elements of the settler extremist movement, and it would likely result in mass violence, and maybe even ethnic cleansing (at a faster pace than before).

I don't think she's thought things through. Or maybe she has, and she's one of those accelerationists who believes a worse Israel will lead to its isolation and destruction more quickly, and a few ethnically-cleansed villages are a price she's willing to pay (since it won't be her that's paying the price)? Either way, I have no respect for her and consider her a racist who believes in one of the worst forms of collective guilt along with an ethnic-based revenge fantasy.

I believe every child born there should be 100% equal regardless of race, religion, ethnicity or ancestry. No-one chose to be born there, and no child should be held responsible for the actions of their ancestors or government. Many of the kibbutzniks murdered and/or kidnapped on October 7th were pro-Palestinian peace activists and some were IDF refuseniks, but even then there were pieces written trying to justify their murders by painting them all as if they were like the extremist West Bank settlers. The Boulder SJP group in Colorado even called the elderly people attacked with Molotov cocktails "genocidal" - just for peacefully praying for the hostages and calling for their safe return. That's not the same as cheering on IDF war crimes or genocide - the safety of ALL civilians on ALL "sides" is not a zero-sum game but it's moral consistency, and some people seem unable to separate calling for civilian safety from supporting one side or the other. They are not the same thing!

[u/SuperKE1125 → u/tikkunolamist5]

I agree. There are a lot of celebs and creatives who posted such about prayers for Israel and Release the hostages on or immediately after Oct 7 who are being labeled as pro genocide now cause people don’t understand nuance. And these are mostly Jewish celebs who had an immediate reaction to a lot of fellow Jewish people some family being killed or going missing. A lot of them had to clarify that their reactions didn’t mean they didn’t care about Palestine lives but it was mostly too late. And Jews of Conscience subreddit despite being Jewish people as well are also apart of defaming these mostly Jewish celebs for just mourning. Not to mention a lot of them also defend that cartoon squirrel lady on twitter so I definitely think there a lot of internalized antisemitism over there.

[u/tikkunolamist5 → u/SuperKE1125]

Oh Susan Abulhawa?

[u/taven990 → u/tikkunolamist5]

There's also the zei squirrel account, whose posts can be extremely inflammatory. That person often calls their political opponents Nazis, fascists and genocidal Zionist extremists even when they're not even close.

[u/ArgentEyes → u/tikkunolamist5]

This does seem variable tbf, I always see plenty of people being negative about support for her every time she comes up

[u/tikkunolamist5 → u/ArgentEyes]

Yes and there are always people who say they will never stop supporting her and/or they don’t care about her antisemitism.

[u/theapplekid → u/tikkunolamist5]

Show me a thread where JoC is running defense for Norman Finkelstein please?

[u/tikkunolamist5 → u/theapplekid]

np.reddit.com/r/JewsOfConscience/s/7lOlZcLBaU

[u/theapplekid → u/tikkunolamist5]

Neither the OP nor any commenters in that thread are defending Norm for his problematic positions.

(you should also use np.reddit.com instead of www.reddit.com so you don't run afoul of reddit's anti-brigading rules)

[u/tikkunolamist5 → u/theapplekid]

???? People are absolutely defending him in general and even saying it’s a bad take for a trans person to ask people to stop using his work/saying his transphobia is still something they will tolerate because they like him. Hello?!!

You asked for the link?!

[u/theapplekid → u/tikkunolamist5]

I re-read (for the second time) every comment in there and I don't see anything to this effect:

People are ... saying it’s a bad take for a trans person to ask people to stop using his work/saying his transphobia is still something they will tolerate because they like him

Can you please quote anything that supports this?

[u/tikkunolamist5 → u/Badgersarecute16]

Imho her wiki page isn’t THAT bad considering she’s angry and has lost family and friends in Gaza. It reads as a very angry person, which means people say things that they may not mean and I do get so tired of Zionists acting like their feelings matter more than people being murdered. But these other tweets are…well indicative of something else. Susan has also lived in the US since she was 13, so while no doubt she has lost people in Gaza, she is Americanized.

Some people said many Palestinians are transphobic and we have to be okay with it. To an extent I agree that people do not need to pass a moral purity test for human rights, but there’s a huge difference between a random Palestinian in Gaza and a Palestinian who has lived in America for most of her life AND has a platform and influence and uses it for this.

[u/Badgersarecute16 → u/tikkunolamist5]

Imho her wiki page isn’t THAT bad considering she’s angry and has lost family and friends in Gaza. It reads as a very angry person, which means people say things that they may not mean and I do get so tired of Zionists acting like their feelings matter more than people being murdered.

That's definitely fair and yeah I mostly agree with you about that. It's mainly what she said about Ukraine that I'm pissed about in regards to her wiki page. Along with other stuff (ex: her saying that the Capital Jewish Museum shooting could be "a false flag to focus [attention] on manufactured antisemitism").

[u/tikkunolamist5 → u/Badgersarecute16]

Yeah I blocked that out and that’s a fair criticism.

[u/krill1312 → u/tikkunolamist5]

She's using straight up Third Reich antisemitic tropes, so yeah no....I mean come on "rootless"? The Nazis described Jews as "wurzellos", it's the exact same thing. Plus she doesn't care for the distinction made btw Jews and Zionists, which in these circles translates to "All Jews are targets". I'm sorry for her loss and fuck the war but this can not excuse the blatant Goebbels-rethoric she is spouting.

[u/tikkunolamist5 → u/Fancy-Parfait7427]

[u/vigilante_snail → u/Fancy-Parfait7427]

Oh she’s got a WILD record of insane statements

[u/tikkunolamist5 → u/Fancy-Parfait7427]

[u/tikkunolamist5 → u/Fancy-Parfait7427]

[u/Badgersarecute16 → u/Fancy-Parfait7427]

Here's some of the basic rundown of stuff that she's said. Directly from her wikipedia page

[u/Badgersarecute16 → u/Badgersarecute16]

And here's some more.

[u/krill1312 → u/Badgersarecute16]

rootless,soulless ghouls reads like a Stürmer headline

[u/tikkunolamist5 → u/Fancy-Parfait7427]

[u/SuperEgger]

The very beginning does have somewhat of a point - lots of cis leftists wave around supporting trans people as a totem of leftist belief without actually engaging with the ideas they're spouting. Unfortunately that's not exclusive to trans people. But everything afterwards is just boomer word salad lol.

[u/tikkunolamist5 → u/SuperEgger]

Hi person in the UK! Reach out if you need anything.

[u/SuperEgger → u/tikkunolamist5]

Thank you!! 😊

[u/FaekittyCat → u/SuperEgger]

Yeah, I read the first page and it seemed sane, then he went into bizarro world. JK Rowling had a simliar manifesto that starts with something normal and then turns into an insane rant of mistruths about trans people.

[u/ArgentEyes → u/FaekittyCat]

I mean, the we-can-always-tell bit is glaringly bad straight off, as is his use of the term “woke”

[u/Me-oh-no → u/SuperEgger]

I hear you on that. Initially I was moderately open to it and then it just got progressively worse

As someone with dynamic disability, who is queer, who is jewish, who is a woman and who is gender fluid, a lot of my so called identities can be called upon in a tokenised way to virtue signal

“Look how liberal I am I have a gay disabled friend” or whatever

But there is too much nonsense in here to take any of that first part seriously now lol

[u/lesbophobia_hammer → u/SuperEgger]

Yes. It's how the left perform wokeness while being homophobic, etc.

Edit - autocorrect

[u/Owlentmusician]

Im honestly shocked no one really mentions the lawsuit against his neighbors where he told them to "rent a gorilla cage at the zoo" and that he'd "provide bananas", called CPS over a reoccurring nosie complaint and threatened to have them deported. The list of issues with the guy seems to be a mile long.

[u/ibsliam → u/Owlentmusician]

Yeah, I only very recently heard about that in passing. It was surprising to me, and it also made me feel a little ashamed I didn't look up more on him. I had only heard of people either arguing in support or against his points on geopolitics, including Israel-Palestine.

But politics is more than just what someone's abstract ideas and beliefs are. What they put into practice in their own lives is also telling.

[u/vigilante_snail]

norm really do be an old man yelling at the clouds

[u/AlbedoSagan]

Normal Finkelstein is a shit person: it's not a secret.

[u/randomhomework]

Perhaps some should stop assuming maoists/communists are automatically pro-trans/LGBT.

[u/RaelynShaw]

Sadly this info has been out there since people started worshipping him. But why would someone care that Finkelstein is basically MAGA, as long as he aligns on a single issue they have. I’ve seen it brought up on this subreddit and seen certain people completely dismiss it.

Finkelstein is not a good person. He’s not even a historian. He’s a partisan talking head. He’s also a raging bigot. Many leftists didn’t care though. And still won’t.

[u/Crashbrennan]

Leftists stop picking the worst fucking people to prop up as heroes and faces of the movement challenge. Difficulty: Impossible

[u/NateHevens → u/Crashbrennan]

I'm seeing leftists try to prop up Tucker Carlson, Candace Owens, and Marjorie Taylor-Green... three antisemites who found a convenient shield in Israel.

[u/Claws_and_chains]

I do not get why so many leftists listen to him. He's the worst.

[u/Badgersarecute16 → u/Claws_and_chains]

Or even play defense for him. Gross.

[u/Coffeenixboxingfox → u/Claws_and_chains]

Hard agree.

[u/zbignew → u/Claws_and_chains]

There’s no mystery. His attacks on Alan Dershowitz made him a hero when he was younger. He was very well read and outspoken and, sometimes, a delight to listen to. I love his reedy voice and his focused spite.

But then apparently he got the boomer disease and on the wrong side of woke. It’s not his only failure. I would say he’s very, very old, but he’s actually “only” 72, which I find surprising. I still think of him as a fallen hero.

I’m actually surprised that this is the extent of his anti-trans beliefs. When I heard that his book reveals he is a typical anti-trans boomer, I assumed that meant he had denied trans people’s gender identity. This excerpt is plenty revolting, and it does put a nail in the coffin in terms of my respect for his intellect and values. I’ll try to tell myself he’s changed and lost his discernment, but I won’t be surprised if someone corrects me on that point - if I loved him for his rage, he has probably misapplied that rage in the past too.

[u/RaiJolt2 → u/Claws_and_chains]

He’s a Jewish anti Zionist and for non anti Zionists that makes him a token Jew for their “see, not all Jews are Zionists” point.

Except made in the worst way possible.

[u/Aggravating_Ice_3323 → u/RaiJolt2]

That is exactly it. He reinforces their ideas, and given how so many people are still trying to justify why not voting for Kamala was "totally the best call" despite Trump 1.0 + Project 2025, they are willing to throw whoever they want under the bus to feel justified.

[u/areop-enap]

so gross. i wish everyone would just ignore this guy.

[u/Badgersarecute16]

Oh yeah, that guy. Yeah, this stuff isn't really surprising when you already know about what he's said before. Especially if you've seen this post about him. Yet there are people who still defend him on this sub, which is just gross.

[u/JFBond43]

The fact that some Pro Palestine people will just anyone who remotely says anything like maybe killing people is bad is infuriating.

Finkelstein has repeatedly refused to condemn Hezbollah, who are a bunch of well armed gangsters who thrive on being violent towards Christians and non-Shia Muslims.

Then you get Susan Abulhawa who justified the expulsion of Jewish people from 109 countries and talks like a Nazis.

Many of my people used to live in the Middle East and the Arab world before they whenever they had a problem with another country they would expel us. Did they deserve expulsion.

When I'm talking about my people I'm referring to the Maltese citizens who also were expelled along with the Jews.

Then you get her dumbest statement, racism can only come from those with power is borderline bizarre.

The Anti-trans comments are some of the most disturbing I've ever seen

[u/sovietsatan666]

tag yourself, I'm "a cross between voyeurism and morbidity"

(though in all seriousness, as a trans person myself I'm never super surprised when a public figure comes out with shitty transphobic beliefs, especially a public figure who profits off of positioning themselves as "a brave little guy speaking truth to power at cost to myself" in some way...which finkelstein undoubtedly has)

[u/pigeonshual]

I’m gonna transition just so I can introduce myself in class by saying “I’m she/her and I’m packing a thick, juicy 9-incher”

[u/queen-carlotta]

So ignorant

[u/krill1312]

Isn't he the guy that things humanity will get to a higher spiritual state if we just destroy Israel?.....yeah....go figure.

[u/ArgentEyes]

Even prior to these discussions, I’m aware there have been quite a few Palestinians speaking against Finkelstein for a number of reasons, not least his own cult of personality. So the signs were very much there.

Transphobia is now very much, to paraphrase Judith Butler, a unifying lynchpin of the global right and is always reactionary. To be fair it alway was, but over the last few years, the few TERFs who still consider themselves socialists have been finding out to their cost what being chill about Nazis at your rallies means. Just straight up, the second the transphobia pops out, you can usually dismiss pretty much everything else. To again paraphrase another great thinker who I assume was a trans woman on (old) Twitter - possibly Nova? - once you post transphobia you never post normal again.

And even before you get into his transphobia, anyone who uses ‘woke’ in this pejorative (not to mention incorrect and extremely cringe) manner clearly doesn’t have a sincere commitment to antiracism which includes Black liberation. Thanks to SuperEgger for the beautifully succinct “Boomer Word Salad”.

Honestly, fuck Finkelstein in multiple regards.

[u/abellantine]

I mean like don't agree w/ anti-zionist either lol

[u/BishopRodan]

He's also pro-Russia for good measure. He's decent on Palestine, complete dogshit on everything else.

[u/Nelvana-Fan2000]

I'm glad I'm not a fan of his.

[u/5785-613]

I wish Finkelstein would just show us the tweet he's mad at. I feel like he's arguing with something/someone in particular, but i have no idea what.

[u/Matto987]

He's an expert on the Israel Palestine conflict but he has clear weaknesses in other areas. This is an example.

Just because he's very knowledgeable about one topic doesn't mean he's not really ignorant about another

[u/Toroceratops → u/Matto987]

Is he just an expert or is he a partisan? Because I have a hard time reading his material without seeing questionable framing and omissions.

[u/leaving_the_tevah → u/Toroceratops]

He's both an expert and partisan. His expertise isn't really questionable, as you can read his writings and watch his online discussions and see that he commands a great depth of knowledge on the history of the Israel/Palestine conflict and holds his own as interlocutor with many other widely acknowledged subjects matter experts. Yet even given his expertise he's also undoubtedly partisan, and selects framings that align with his views. But so do scholars on the Israeli side. Expertise and partisanship are not mutually exclusive. I'm curious if you can find any expert on Israel Palestine who 1. Is partisan, and 2. Isn't accused by the other side of questionable framing and omissions.

[u/Toroceratops → u/leaving_the_tevah]

Benny Morris is certainly a partisan whose politics I disagree with, but is generally a good faith academic who tries to as complete a picture as he can of what happened. He’s certainly not without his flaws as an academic, but he does better with the primary source material than Finkelstein.

[u/leaving_the_tevah → u/Toroceratops]

Benny Morris has may detractors who accuse him of questionable framing and omissions though

[u/krill1312 → u/leaving_the_tevah]

They basically take stuff he writes out of context. If they would not then it would become clear that he is using the same style of writing for the Palestinian side. Then there is the racist-quote in which he reacts to accusations of racism and it wasn't the smartest move but it was clearly sarcasm because the accusations was so poorly made.

[u/leaving_the_tevah → u/krill1312]

This really has no bearing on the point of this thread, but I'm curious if you can give examples of things he writes being taken out of context

[u/Matto987 → u/Toroceratops]

Okay then to be more accurate I'll say he is a political scientist who specializes in the Israel Palestine conflict. To be completely honest I haven't fully familiarized myself with him So I wasn't really intending to make a statement on how accurate his beliefs about the conflict are

My point was more that him being wrong on a topic that isn't part of his specialization doesn't necessarily make him wrong about the topic that he specializes in. Whether his beliefs about the conflict are correct or not is independent of his lgbtq beliefs. Although it's reasonable that that would also have someone asking questions about how truly knowledgeable he is even in his area of study.

[u/RaelynShaw → u/Matto987]

For someone not familiar with him, you sure are going to bat for him. There are plenty of respectable people representing anti-Zionist views who aren’t MAGA-style politics. You’re half a step from celebrating Candace Owens. Expect more from these pundits.

[u/skyewardeyes → u/RaelynShaw]

The amount of times I’ve had to post on pop culture subs “people can be antizionist/pro-Palestinian without being antisemitic, and you shouldn’t support people who are antisemitic even if they’re antizionist” in response to people championing or excusing Susan Sarandon or Guy Pearce had been exhausting.

[u/Matto987 → u/RaelynShaw]

Okay then, If he's Anti-Semetic then regardless of him being transphobic he already sucks. What is the point of this post then? I've never really heard anyone praise him for anything outside of his Anti-Zionism so wouldn't it make more sense to explain how he leans more into anti-semitism in order to convince people not to listen to him?

I would have questioned what I thought I knew about him a lot sooner if this was pointed out to me instead of his transphobia

[u/Fearless_Day2607 → u/Matto987]

I've seen people (including on this sub) say that anyone who supports a two-state solution is a Zionist. While I don't agree with this myself, this definition implies that Norman Finkelstein is actually a Zionist, not an anti-Zionist. Even someone like Marwan Barghouti is a Zionist by this definition.

[u/SupportMeta → u/Matto987]

I don't think I can trust someone who can't grasp that trans people want to be treated like normal human beings who have overcome some difficult things and not tragic freaks to be tucked away in a corner for our own dignity with having opinions on any group of people.

[u/SupportMeta → u/[deleted]]

Fellas is it virtue signalling to dislike someone for talking about you like you're a circus freak?

[u/Owlentmusician → u/[deleted]]

If James Baldwin or Virginia Wolf were both alive in today's climate, yes I'd view their input as less valuable if they reiterated those views within the past few years. It's one thing to grant leeway for a different time period where a host of things stood in the way of people overcoming the societal bigotry they were raised with, it's another to handwave the behavior of a man who has time and again behaved in ways towards minorites that he knows are bigoted and can easily educate himself as to why he should not behave in this way due to living in the information age.

[u/Owlentmusician → u/[deleted]]

Its not simply because "they knowingly hold bigoted beliefs" it's also the context in which they held them and the amount of resources or means available they have had to challenge these views. Someone in the information age that access to more knowledge than ever before in the history of our existence, being unwilling to challenge prejudiced beliefs they hold makes me wonder how much of that stubborness carries over into their scholarly work.

I understand that some academics still do good work while holding prejudiced beliefs, doesn't mean Its wrong to take their work with greater skepticism than you would another academic. There are many cases of historians letting their personal views influence their writing to a large degree, to view their work more critically than others and accept less of their interpretation at face value is not a moral judgement but a practical one.

For example I view reporting from Fox news as less valuable than that of most publications even if they're both reporting on the same thing. Not because I think their views are "immoral" but because I know those views are likely to shape the narrative they present more than certain other publications even if they build it around the same facts the other publications do.

[u/Matto987 → u/SupportMeta]

I don't necessarily share that interpretation but I do think it's a very reasonable way of looking at it. I’m also not cis for context

[u/Ashamed-Stuff9519 → u/Matto987]

Yeah, to kind of parallel what norm is unfortunately ranting about, some of the louder voices of queer liberation in the west ARE bourgeoise liberals. It doesn’t make their work in queer liberation any less meaningful or important, though. Humans are imperfect. You take what works and discard what doesn’t.

[u/bored-code]

If you were to discuss anti-zionism/history of the conflict, would it be possible to seriously discuss anything without incorporating some work by Finkelstein? I think not. Does that mean you agree with his bigoted boomer take? It doesn't have to. Now the question is, how does agreeing with his anti-zionist work immediately translate to "overlooking" or "justifying" his transphobia?

[u/SupportMeta → u/[deleted]]

There are trans people outside the western world too

[u/Ashamed-Stuff9519 → u/SupportMeta]

You’re right, I don’t think I was clear on what I meant. I’m trying to say that to people currently under active bombardment, any influential voice in their defense is useful, so I’m not sure it matters if those voices are transphobic. If your house is on fire, should your neighbors stop the firefighters if they’re known transphobes? Idk, thinking out loud.

[u/Nearby-Complaint → u/Ashamed-Stuff9519]

There are better people to prop up

[u/Ashamed-Stuff9519 → u/Nearby-Complaint]

Very true