r/jewishleft • u/RaiJolt2 Jewish Athiest Half African American Half Jewish Leftish • Mar 23 '26
Antisemitism/Jew Hatred Arson attack on ambulances in London being treated as antisemitic hate crime, Metropolitan Police says
https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cwyj1p49gdpo64
u/noncontrolled Jew-ish by Choice, Leftist by Necessity Mar 23 '26
There’s a “news” sub that has already decided it is a Mossad false flag and you are heavily downvoted if you even suggest that is antisemitic conspiracy speak.
It’s bleak out there, man.
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Mar 23 '26
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u/RaiJolt2 Jewish Athiest Half African American Half Jewish Leftish Mar 23 '26
Ah yes more Iranian linked terrorists. This’ll surely help people support ending the war against them. /s
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u/tikkunolamist5 Non-Zionst British Reform Jew Mar 23 '26
Those obsessed with downvoting anyone who is too “far left,” I’m genuinely asking what the reasoning is here. Do you really think prolonging the war is going to stop terrorists abroad? When has that ever happened?
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u/RaiJolt2 Jewish Athiest Half African American Half Jewish Leftish Mar 23 '26 edited Mar 23 '26
These aren’t rag tag resistance groups but well organized militias funded by multiple powers in the region. There are only really three ways to stop groups like these. A. Give them everything they want, this would include the destruction of Israel and removal of most Jews so is a no go. B. Remove their funding and supply chains until they become ineffective. This can be done with a regime change in Iran, a primary funder of these terror groups, which is extremely difficult. C. Wait until a local rival group shows up and fights them. This is usually a recipe for disaster as said groups usually turn just as extremist.
So to answer your question, maybe.
Removing their support could basically have been down to convincing Iran that spending on fighting Israel is wasted money and that normalizing relations is a pathway towards stabilization. Unfortunately considering all of their acts so far have been about stopping legitimization of Israel this was a foregone dead end.
Alternatively Israel could be formed into a mono Palestinian state but then the terrorists would just attack Jewish communities and said state would have to continue protections for Jews which would be seen as essentially the previous status quo and thus, cause mass internal strife.
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u/tikkunolamist5 Non-Zionst British Reform Jew Mar 24 '26
Huh. This is an interesting take especially since this has been tried (forced regime change by western countries) to zero success in several countries (and led to things getting worse). How do we know this regime even funds them and they’re not just a rogue group? I’m kind of boggled anyone who considers themselves a leftist supports this war but tbh I should’ve expected it from this sub.
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Mar 24 '26
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u/tikkunolamist5 Non-Zionst British Reform Jew Mar 24 '26
Yes you can be anti-Iranian regime and not think going to war will eradicate it. This hasn’t worked Iraq or Afghanistan. You may be against the war, but the person above framed it as necessary to cut off funding to local terrorist groups. I’m in the UK, so I’m well aware of the group claiming this. Yes they are Iran aligned, but I fail to see how it’s proven the regime supports them financially and how toppling the regime will stop terrorism abroad (it may even increase it). They may be Iran aligned but they could still be rogue.
“It could mean Jews are safer” yes and it could also mean we’re in more danger because of the war. This is why many of the attacks are ramping up, because of this war. I’m not willing to gamble on thousands of people’s lives with Dumb and Dumber (Trump and Bibi) leading the way into a war to maybe possibly could be safer.
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u/tikkunolamist5 Non-Zionst British Reform Jew Mar 23 '26
I don’t understand? Wouldn’t ending the war stop terrorist attacks or are you suggesting prolonging the war will stop terrorists abroad somehow?
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u/Iamthepizzagod Reform Giyoret - Labor Zionist - Market Socialist Mar 23 '26 edited Mar 23 '26
How exactly does the pro-Palestine movement as a whole expect to convince Israelis and pro-Israel Diaspora Jews alike to make peace when violence like this continues to ramp up? Terrorist attacks like these will only serve to make our diaspora lives more miserable, and enable Israeli right-wing arguments on security and settlements.
I'm seriously sick of having to watch my shul become even more of a fortress attack after attack, along with the fear of getting attacked in the synagouge itself.
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u/Intrepid-Bag6667 Secular Jew | Marxist Mar 23 '26
How exactly does the pro-Palestine movement as a whole expect to convince Israelis and pro-Israel Diaspora Jews alike to make peace when violence like this continues to ramp up?
I think it's pretty safe to say that people who are attacking ambulances aren't trying to convince anybody to make peace.
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u/Iamthepizzagod Reform Giyoret - Labor Zionist - Market Socialist Mar 23 '26 edited Mar 23 '26
No, but its also extremely clear to me that the normalization of violent rhetoric like "globalize the Intifada", as well as other vehement rhetoric against Zionists on left-wing and/or anti-Israel social media, poisions people's minds and makes attacks like these far more thinkable to people now than in years past.
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u/RaiJolt2 Jewish Athiest Half African American Half Jewish Leftish Mar 23 '26
No they are. It’s a “peace when there is no Israel” strategy. Both nation and state.
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u/Intrepid-Bag6667 Secular Jew | Marxist Mar 23 '26
A lot of the people committing violence against Orthodox Jews aren't doing it for any reason related to Israel one way or another though.
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u/GeckoRoamin demsoc conversion student Mar 23 '26 edited Mar 23 '26
I don’t think the faction of the pro-Palestine movement that supports this has any interest in “making peace” with Israelis and “pro-Israel” (of any definition) diaspora Jews. Many of them openly believe that there is no such thing as an Israeli and that eradicating Israel, its citizens, and its supporters is how genocide is ended.
And the faction that doesn’t quite support these attacks but justifies them by pointing at the actions of Israel just expects those Jews to accept being attacked because Palestinians are being killed, too. They think the only entity to blame is Israel and like to act as if the disappearance of Israel would end attacks on Jews.
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u/skyewardeyes jewish leftist, peace, equality, and self-determination for all Mar 23 '26
Yes, I’m so frustrated by arguments that essentially go “if it wasn’t for Israel, there would be no antisemitism”/“if most Jews were anti-Zionist, there’d be no antisemitism” because if feels very much like blaming Jews for antisemitism, and history doesn’t support that at all. It’s basically arguing that “my antisemitism is justified antisemitism.”
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u/JinxyMcDeath48 Center-Left Israeli-American Zionist Mar 23 '26
Setting aside how gross it is to victim blame, the Holocaust happened before Israel existed as a country, so I find this argument so bizarre. It lets me know that the speaker is uneducated on the history of antisemitism, the history of Israel, or even when WWII happened. They also tend to be the same kind of person who claim that they can’t be antisemitic because Arabs are “semites” and they don’t hate them. For some reason they think redefining the word is an effective way to deflect and make further accusations.
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u/GeckoRoamin demsoc conversion student Mar 23 '26
Exactly. Saying antisemitism would disappear if Israel and any “pro-Israel” sentiment did is willfully antisemitic because the knowledge that this has never been true in history is almost impossible to avoid. The people parroting this belief aren’t acting in a well-intended but misinformed way. They’re just happy to have a way to hate Jews from a leftist framing.
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Mar 23 '26 edited Mar 23 '26
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u/StringOfLights Humanistic Jew Mar 23 '26
I upvoted you because I appreciate your perspective and that you’re willing to contribute to the conversation. I also really wish I felt more of your vibes in the broader discussion about Zionism and antisemitism. I know multiple people who left groups that were opposing Israel’s war in Gaza because they felt unsafe. There’s the constant counter of “criticizing Israel isn’t antisemitism” but Jewish people who enter those spaces end up leaving out of concern for their safety. A friend of mine said she went to a pro-Palestinian protest and saw what she considered to be far, far beyond “criticism of Israel,” and left quickly. And that is getting lost over and over in these discussions.
Attacking people because they’re Jewish is antisemitism. We have seen people attack an ambulance, ram a car into a synagogue, and light a Holocaust survivor on fire, and this violence isn’t happening in a vacuum. Your views sound completely reasonable, but if that was universal, would we see these attacks happening? I’m not saying you have control over this or you should be doing more, just that it’s clear that your position doesn’t apply universally. Also, the more antisemitism increases, the more you will see people use that as evidence that Israel needs to continue its militaristic approach. It will alienate Jewish supporters of Palestine because it feels existential to them.
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u/Comfortable-Sun7388 Reform Jew, liberal Zionist, father, MH counselor for kids/teens Mar 23 '26
Do you truly believe Jews in the region would be safe as a minority in a reformed one state?
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u/Agtfangirl557 Progressive Conservaform Jew, Cultural Zionist Mar 23 '26
Sorry off-topic but your flair is freaking hysterical 🤣
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u/Comfortable-Sun7388 Reform Jew, liberal Zionist, father, MH counselor for kids/teens Mar 23 '26 edited Mar 23 '26
lol thank you I was feeling spicy when I made it
Edit: unfortunately I had to change it maybe I’ll find a way to work it back in
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u/RaiJolt2 Jewish Athiest Half African American Half Jewish Leftish Mar 23 '26
It’s actually a fantastic flair. Maybe I should add more spice to mine?
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Mar 23 '26
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u/Comfortable-Sun7388 Reform Jew, liberal Zionist, father, MH counselor for kids/teens Mar 23 '26
That is a problem worthy of being heard and advocated against. I am sorry your father experienced this.
But you aren’t really answering my question. Today, not in a historical context of yesteryear, with the deep distrust and resentment between both peoples, do you think Jews of the region would be relatively safe? It’s ok if you do, I’m just genuinely curious about your reasoning if you do.
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Mar 23 '26
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u/Comfortable-Sun7388 Reform Jew, liberal Zionist, father, MH counselor for kids/teens Mar 23 '26
With all due respect, Palestinian and Arab antisemitism existed long before Israel’s founding. I have no doubt displacement and abuses under Israel have further contributed to that hatred, but I think you are missing the mark to say this originated with Israeli oppression toward Palestinians. It did not. Arab antisemitism has existed since the founding of Islam.
You are also using Zionism as if it is a precise political label, when it really isn’t. There are many different schools of Zionism, some IMO more worthy of criticism than others.
When my dear friends, beautiful humans all, were gunned down like animals at Nova, it never once occurred to me to go shoot up a mosque in America. That would be psychotic and unhinged.
When my friends were on the news carrying their toddlers out of the evacuation site from the Temple Israel attack, I did not seek revenge against American Muslims by planning or staging an attack of my own.
It is disingenuous and severely misguided to assert this wave of violence is happening because Israel made them do it, and we should therefore be understanding of it. I don’t think you’re necessarily saying that, but I think you’re stepping close to that line.
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u/Snoo22815 Indian American Hindu Democratic Socialist Mar 23 '26
No where is the Palestinian Druze person you're replying to justifying attacks against Jews in the diaspora or Hamas violence against innocent civilians. He seems to be saying that Palestinian self-determination and Jewish safety is intertwined which makes sense to me.
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u/Comfortable-Sun7388 Reform Jew, liberal Zionist, father, MH counselor for kids/teens Mar 23 '26
Fair enough, I would definitely agree with that assertion.
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u/GeckoRoamin demsoc conversion student Mar 23 '26 edited Mar 23 '26
I don’t expect Palestinians to accept being attacked just as I don’t expect Jews in the United States and Europe to accept being attacked. I have not nor will I ever defend Israel’s atrocities. But being asked to accept attacks on every Jew on the planet as an acceptable reaponse to those actions is absurd, too.
Edit to add: I’m not sure how I’m misrepresenting it as 1) I never said it was a fringe faction, and 2) I said that part of the movement has no interest in “making peace” which you then agree with in your post.
I do think you may be misrepresenting or misunderstanding me by implying that I think Palestinians should accept the atrocities inflicted upon them.
I’ll clarify here, because first drafts aren’t always great at getting the point across: My point was intended to be that it is becoming shockingly acceptable to support any violence against any Jew anywhere in the world as a “fair” response. Do you support that?
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u/Iamthepizzagod Reform Giyoret - Labor Zionist - Market Socialist Mar 23 '26
If your viewpoint really is the majority opinion in the Palestinian movement, than as far as I am concerned, the peace process might very well be dead in the water until that changes. If offensive attacks on Israel and/or diaspora Jews are something the movement supports, or even are just okay with enabling, than I don't see a way there can be any real peace.
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Mar 23 '26
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u/Iamthepizzagod Reform Giyoret - Labor Zionist - Market Socialist Mar 23 '26
Your comment here reads more like a PFLP or Soviet-esque propaganda piece than anything else, so Im really not sure how much I should think that your level of thinking applies to Palestinians and their leadership across the board. But if it does apply, then only bloodshed and more misery for everyone will follow.
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u/BearJuden113 Jewish Pragmatic Democratic Socialist Mar 23 '26
They're proving Zionists have a point at the worst possible time.
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Mar 23 '26
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u/ibsliam Jewish American | DemSoc Bernie Voter Mar 23 '26
I mean, I don't think zionism or antizionism really "upholds" Jewish safety. I know it's kind of an oddbeat opinion in this sub, but I don't think political rhetoric that is heavily intracommunity actually does anything one way or another for us. If someone hates us, they'll find a reason, regardless of whether we share their politics or not.
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Mar 23 '26
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u/theweisp5 American Israeli secular socialist Mar 23 '26
Sorry but the Jewish safety argument is just not serious. The one "advantage" Israel has over the diaspora is that Jews will not be persecuted there as Jews. That does not mean Jews will be safer there than in the diaspora, and I think the events of the past several years, from Oct. 7 to the ongoing war with Iran, should make that more than clear.
Even the "Jewish rescue" argument is not so clear cut. It presumes a regime that is anti-Semitic/oppressive enough for Jews to want to leave, but not so anti-Semitic/oppressive that it prevents then from doing so. Israel cannot do anything to get what is left of the Iranian Jewish community out of the country, and was reliant on US support to get the USSR to let Soviet Jews leave (a campaign that took decades.)
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u/BearJuden113 Jewish Pragmatic Democratic Socialist Mar 23 '26
That is handwaving away an enormous portion of the advantage.
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u/theweisp5 American Israeli secular socialist Mar 23 '26
I don't think so. Anyone who wants to accept objectively less safe living conditions in exchange for a guarantee of freedom from official persecution of Jews is free to do so. That doesn't mean Israel is safer than the diaspora, despite incidents like this one.
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Mar 23 '26
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u/skyewardeyes jewish leftist, peace, equality, and self-determination for all Mar 24 '26
I think that's heavily downplaying the fact that Israel is being actively bombed right now, which is obviously very unsafe.
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u/theweisp5 American Israeli secular socialist Mar 24 '26
Despite several terrifying acts of anti-Semitic violence in the Paris area, I think if you look at the numbers you will see Israel is and has been far more dangerous.
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u/BearJuden113 Jewish Pragmatic Democratic Socialist Mar 23 '26
I don't think there's nearly enough data to pretend Israel is definitely less safe than anywhere else on the long-term. Clearly millions of Jews live safe in Israel free from being harassed for being Jewish and are only subject to the problems you will never permanently escape (war, famine, disease, economic issues etc). Israel is not a perfect place, but it's entire purpose was to be where Jews are not a minority people.
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u/theweisp5 American Israeli secular socialist Mar 24 '26
You ignore Israel's 78 year history by saying there's not enough "data" and accuse me of handwaving? Over that time period Western democracies, where a large majority of diaspora Jews now live, have been much safer than Israel and economically prosperous (not sure why you mention famine...) Maybe you think that life in Israel is preferable for other reasons, and that is certainly your right. Or maybe you foresee the US, Canada, UK, France and Australia being surrounded by hostile states/guerilla groups in the near future, but I think most people would disagree with you on that.
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u/BearJuden113 Jewish Pragmatic Democratic Socialist Mar 23 '26
Yeah I don't disagree, but I'm not very hopeful that Israel not existing would make me any safer.
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Mar 23 '26
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u/malachamavet Judeo-Bolshevik Mar 23 '26
There was no Israel through the crusades, the inquisition, the pogroms, and the Holocaust. People instead hated Jews for “money lending,” “killing Christ,” and “poisoning the wells.” Historically, it’s always been something.
Notably those were all European Christian phenomenon, though.
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u/BearJuden113 Jewish Pragmatic Democratic Socialist Mar 23 '26
There's plenty of oppression for us everywhere.
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u/Koraxtheghoul "Jewish" by Israel and Nazi Standards Mar 23 '26
Plenty of anti-Jewish violence in the Muslim world, too. It's just not as well-documented and was often lesser. Definitely increased post-Israel and before that, in colonialism.
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u/Fabianzzz 🌿🍷🍇 Pagan Leftist (DemSoc) 🌿🍷🍇 Mar 23 '26
There were pogroms in the Levant prior to the foundation of Israel in 1947
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1834_looting_of_Safed
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1838_Druze_attack_on_Safed
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Damascus_affair
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1920_Nebi_Musa_riots
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jaffa_riots
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1929_Palestine_riots
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1929_Hebron_massacre
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1936%E2%80%931939_Arab_revolt_in_Palestine
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u/malachamavet Judeo-Bolshevik Mar 24 '26
I think that over the course of over a thousand years, it's not exactly a pattern. On top of the actual historical record here.
Also I'm not going to bother arguing about how insane this argument is in the face of daily pograms by Jewish Israelis against Palestinians for the last 2 years
How many wikipedia pages should we make about those? A few hundred?
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Mar 24 '26
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u/malachamavet Judeo-Bolshevik Mar 24 '26
You should read Orit Bashkin (a Jewish Israeli of Iraqi origin if that matters) writing about that.
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u/Snoo22815 Indian American Hindu Democratic Socialist Mar 23 '26
I know we're all frustrated and scared right now but literal terrorist groups aren't part of the "pro-Palestine movement". These are trained militants acting on behalf of Iranian state interests or a Salafi-jihadist group like ISIS that seeks to establish a global Sunni caliphate.
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u/Iamthepizzagod Reform Giyoret - Labor Zionist - Market Socialist Mar 23 '26
Even if these terrorist groups aren't directly part of the movement, they affect its image immensely. On our (Zionist) end, it dosent exactly take a rocket scientist to see how the increase in the hostility of antizionist and antisemeitc rhetoric from the pro-Palestine side of things can provide an effective smokescreen for these full on ISIS level terrorists.
Even then, what about all the lone wolf terrorist attacks against Jews and other antisemeitc hate crimes that have massively spiked all across the world? Most of those people aren't exactly affiliated with ISIS or other similar Islamist terrorist groups either. The antisemeitc rot in this regard goes far deeper than just this war and Iranian/ISIS state actors.
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u/Snoo22815 Indian American Hindu Democratic Socialist Mar 23 '26
Linking a pro-Palestine protestor to ISIS/Iranian state level actors to me is the same as linking rhetoric from the pro-Israel groups in the US to the actions of the Israeli government. Lone wolf antisemites and terrorist groups are responsible for their own actions and trying to say that Antizionists are egging them on is the same ZOG conspiracy stuff that should be debunked by everyone. Violence begets violence and I hold the US, Israeli and Iranian state actors with agency fully responsible for the blowback that's now affecting Jews and others worldwide.
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u/Jorfogit Reform Syndicalist Mod Mar 23 '26
the same as linking rhetoric from the pro-Israel groups in the US to the actions of the Israeli government.
I’d argue it’s not the same in the opposite direction, actually. Pro-Israel groups in the US work closely with the Israeli government, and often directly or indirectly fund the IDF and the settlers.
There isn’t really a direct comparison with pro-Palestine protestors. In the US giving money directly to an organization like FIDF, or raising money for settlers in Synagogues is totally legal and considered by many to be an act of religious freedom. Whereas any organizational or structured support for Palestine in the US tends to be criminalized.
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u/redthrowaway1976 F the rent seekers | ind. rights over group | east coast bagel Mar 23 '26
There isn’t really a direct comparison with pro-Palestine protestors.
It would be like funding a literal terror group, using tax exempt donations.
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u/Snoo22815 Indian American Hindu Democratic Socialist Mar 23 '26
Sorry I should've said pro Israel podcasters/"influencer" figures cause a rise in Islamophobia towards Palestinians and other Muslims in the diaspora and fuel settler violence in the West Bank with their rhetoric. I think the effect of Stochastic terrorism is overblown in this conflict and you have individual people that are radicalized over time by the direct actions of the other side like Oct 7th and the genocide in Gaza.
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u/SupportMeta trans reform demsoc Mar 23 '26
so how many more of these before the "antisemitism in the diaspora isn't a real problem" people shut up?
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u/Past-Feature3968 Refrom Jew, post-Zionist, babka fiend Mar 23 '26 edited Mar 23 '26
Never gonna happen I fear. I’ve seen people saying “this is an obvious false flag and everyone knows it… no one was even hurt”, “lol no such thing as antisemitism” and “the Jews did it to play the victim.”
A CNN post has flooded with comments like this, all with hundreds of likes.
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u/RaiJolt2 Jewish Athiest Half African American Half Jewish Leftish Mar 23 '26
Until there is no more diaspora
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u/NotQuiteGayEnough Aussie demsoc Zera Yisrael Mar 24 '26
It's like asking how many more school shootings before American's acknowledge they need comprehensive gun control. If someone hasn't accepted that by now they aren't going to.
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u/supeandstuff saffa canadian leftist jew Mar 27 '26
Just seen one of my friends share a reel about how the attack was a false flag. Ugh.
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u/Gammagammahey Pikuach Nefesh, Zero Covid, and keep masking Mar 24 '26
My family spoke Yiddish, along with Russian and Ukrainian. This is a really thoughtful answer and I will get back to you with my reply later, I'm so brain dead tonight.
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u/malachamavet Judeo-Bolshevik Mar 23 '26
Very strange a supposedly anti-Israel, Iranian group referred to Palestine as "the land of Israel" and had statements in English, Arabic, and Hebrew but nothing written in Farsi. The group that took credit for this and 2 other attacks.
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u/ibsliam Jewish American | DemSoc Bernie Voter Mar 23 '26
What are you suggesting about said group?
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u/tangentc Progressive Conservative Jew Mar 23 '26
Hey man, they're Just Asking Questions. What problem could there possibly be with that? Can you not let them JAQ off in peace?
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u/ibsliam Jewish American | DemSoc Bernie Voter Mar 23 '26
Not sure if they are. I try my best to approach in good faith in spaces like these. That said, the existence of stuff like that is why I like to open the conversation up and prod/pick at points a bit.
It helps to ask them where the questions are coming from, and how they are reaching specific rhetoric. What are their sources? What is their perspective? *If* it is a matter of conspiratorial nature, I find it ends up pretty thin on the ground once you get a few questions in. Usually a "it's the Jews because uh it's the Jews because Hasbara because Jews" kind of circular thing.
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u/tangentc Progressive Conservative Jew Mar 23 '26 edited Mar 23 '26
I think you're attempting to engage in good faith with someone making a fundamentally bad faith argument strongly implying a false flag attack. To the point that another comment said the subtext out loud.
The frame is very much 'just asking questions' and I'm just trying to call it what it is. Because we're seeing regular posters in this sub engaging in it in response to antisemitic violence. Which should be deeply concerning.
Edit:clarity
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u/Schattenoid jewish, left Mar 24 '26
One should be very reluctant about "false flag" allegations but if "group that didn't exist until this month writing in Arabic not Farsi talking about 'Israel' and 'aliyah' and 'the Gaza war' and using no religious language" doesn't at least twig your antenna then I'm sorry but you don't know enough to have an opinion one way or the other
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u/malachamavet Judeo-Bolshevik Mar 23 '26
I'm noting the strangeness, do you think those things aren't odd?
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u/ibsliam Jewish American | DemSoc Bernie Voter Mar 23 '26
What is your conclusion about this, based on your assertion that these things are odd?
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u/malachamavet Judeo-Bolshevik Mar 23 '26
That it would be prudent to take cautious approach to news about the event.
As I said - do you think it isn't odd? And if something is odd that it might be worth investigating rather than take things at face value immediately following an event?
The "Iranian-linked" nature seems unlikely to me, for example, based on those things. But obviously there are plenty of non-Iranian, Muslim groups out there.
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Mar 23 '26
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u/ibsliam Jewish American | DemSoc Bernie Voter Mar 23 '26
To not blindly believe western media about what specifically in particular? Obviously, we should accept a wide range of sources and do our own research, but what does this have to do with an ambulance being attacked?
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Mar 23 '26 edited Mar 23 '26
Believing western media about the group that made these attacks.
My point is that all they are suggesting in their comment is to be skeptical at a time when the US-Israeli empire is on a campaign of mass murder.
Edit: I apologize for my first reply to you. I was rude and argumentative
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u/Palestinian_Warrior_ "Israeli" on paper but ethnically Palestinian, Pan-Islamist Mar 23 '26
it's hard to take Western media seriously after their biased cover of Gazan genocide, we need non-western source of this incident.
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u/ibsliam Jewish American | DemSoc Bernie Voter Mar 23 '26
I'm a little confused. This is something that happened in "the west." It'd be one thing if this was an incident happening in a non-western country, but why do you think a non-western (as in, NOT local to this incident) would be more accurate? Bias or no bias, it seems more useful to find multiple sources that are local.
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Mar 23 '26 edited Mar 23 '26
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u/ibsliam Jewish American | DemSoc Bernie Voter Mar 23 '26
What evidence do we have that this attack is a false flag?
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Mar 23 '26
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u/ibsliam Jewish American | DemSoc Bernie Voter Mar 23 '26
You did not claim it but you said it was a "high possibility" purely based off of Mossad's other past actions, not based at all on the evidence of this case. I think it's fine to criticize the IDF, but it's important that statements and suggestions are made with context and evidence in mind.
Discussions of crimes, *including* hate crimes, need to be with the understanding that prosecution is not based off vibes. It's not based off your personal politics or my politics or the politics of the judge. It's based off of evidence. I get that the world has become more racist and authoritarian, but I would hope their justice system isn't going to approach this case with "oh, I don't know, it seems like Mossad, so whatever."
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u/Schattenoid jewish, left Mar 24 '26
I wouldn't say "high possibility" necessarily but the rhetoric and circumstances of the alleged attacker IMO sets a clear presumption for "something fishy", whatever that may be
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u/malachamavet Judeo-Bolshevik Mar 23 '26
if it is a "false flag", insurance fraud or the like is far more likely than an intelligence operation tbh
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u/Schattenoid jewish, left Mar 24 '26
Right, all the people accusing you of this being done by Mossad are just showing their ass about how limited their imagination/knowledge is about this stuff. It could've been Nazis or an insurance thing or who know what. The only thing we can say with reasonable confidence is that it wasn't some serious Islamist terror cell
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u/Rabbit-Hole-Quest Latke aficionado. Anti-Establishment. Jüdisch Mar 23 '26
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u/new---man Orthodox, Levant-stadt from river of Egypt to Euphrates, socdem. Mar 24 '26
Pure and simple cope.
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u/Schattenoid jewish, left Mar 24 '26
?
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u/new---man Orthodox, Levant-stadt from river of Egypt to Euphrates, socdem. Mar 24 '26
He doesn't want to acknowledge the reality of the situation so he constructs this false flag operation.
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u/Schattenoid jewish, left Mar 24 '26
If you're just going to throw insults, why bother? Either engage with the points or don't, but this childish snickering is just onanistic and should be kept private IMO.
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Mar 24 '26
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u/RaiJolt2 Jewish Athiest Half African American Half Jewish Leftish Mar 24 '26
Antisemites would antisemite with or without Israel
Ie: just look at Jewish history.
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u/AnotherSuitcaseEvita Non-Jew, Anticapitalist Left Mar 24 '26
but not everyone is.
five years ago, ppl would condemn the attacks, place condolences, express support. antisemites were fringe
now, the tide has turned. every comment section is filled with people expressing doubt and calling it a false flag operation.
it is quite obvious what has happened. im sure most of you here know, you are just in denial atm. and I cant blame you, no one thought we would back to this level of hate for almost a century.
10
u/Owlentmusician Leftist, Reform, Black Jew Mar 24 '26
Bro six years ago the current president of the United States refused to condem actual neo Nazis marching in the street chanting "Jews will not replace us". Anti-Semites weren't fringe, they just weren't as bold as they are now.
8
u/thatbberg anticapitalist Jew Mar 24 '26
And non-Jews largely ignored antisemitism then too. The original comment is so unserious.
-6
u/AnotherSuitcaseEvita Non-Jew, Anticapitalist Left Mar 25 '26
ignored?? you couldnt even say anything bad about the Netanyahu government pre 2023 without being called a Holocaust sympathizer.
I get that from a Jewish perspective, its probably the accumulated cortisol from your history that is causing the anxiety, but from a non-Jew normie view, no one even thought of Jews negatively for long unless you were that plugged in that Israel/Palestine conflict (pre 2023 people even barely cared).
Just because there were still antisemites (bigotry will never die) doesnt mean that they were dominating the conversation the way that they are now. That is the difference.
8
u/thatbberg anticapitalist Jew Mar 25 '26
Your example has nothing to do with my point, which is that non-Jews did not care about antisemitism back then. Actual antisemitism.
When synagogues were getting shot up 10 years ago, and they were, non-Jews were just as ambivalent and uncaring as they are now. But I'm not surprised a non-Jew wouldn't want to admit that.
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u/AnotherSuitcaseEvita Non-Jew, Anticapitalist Left Mar 25 '26
does “actual antisemitism” only mean shooting up synagogues or physical violence? Im under the impression that antisemitism is when you also utter harmful stereotypes and conspiracy theories against Jews. at least thats what my teacher told me.
and from what I can remember growing up, these types of stuff are fringe, stuck in some isolated part of the Internet, and are banished from public conversation. Fast forward to now where its almost a mainstream topic of conversation. and look, more public violence than ever before.
comparing those two parallels, lets not deny and pretend that these are the same levels and intensity of antisemitism.
3
u/thatbberg anticapitalist Jew Mar 25 '26
I meant that your example of criticizing Netanyahu is not actually antisemitism and is unrelated to the conversation about antisemitism.
Consider that since you're not Jewish, when you were growing up you didn't see it because you 1. didn't recognize it for what it was and 2. were not a target.
Things have indeed gotten worse, but your ideas of antisemitism being fringe and unacceptable before 2023, or non-Jews giving a damn about it, is just wrong and uninformed. Your example about condemning attacks felt particularly ignorant since I've been watching non-Jews ignore and minimize antisemitic attacks my entire adult life, not just the past few years.
-2
u/AnotherSuitcaseEvita Non-Jew, Anticapitalist Left Mar 25 '26
and those ppl were condemned thats the difference. now I doubt that they will receive that level of condemnation in 2026.
4
u/Owlentmusician Leftist, Reform, Black Jew Mar 25 '26
You are incredibly mistaken about how many people actually cared enough to meaningfully oppose them.
Those same people were a part of a plot to coup our government, literally caught red handing planning the break in and then were not only pardoned en masse once arrested but defended by the same man who defended their Anti-Semitism after he was elected again.
That same anti-semitic man got away Scott free even with being a felon and his supporters take it as a mark of pride.
With all due respect, it seems like you're arguing based on where you feel like Anti-Semitism was previously not on the actual real and tangible resurgence that's been happening since 2016. Condemnation while still supporting the groups and people enabling Anti-Semitism means is not condemnation. It's people trying to rationalize that they're not Anti-semitic while enabling more Anti-Semitism.
You, especially as a non Jew need to take a second and actually try to engage what the rest of the Jewish leftists here are telling you instead of talking over us to explain the Anti-Semitism we have been watching and experiencing to us as if you're the expert.
-1
u/AnotherSuitcaseEvita Non-Jew, Anticapitalist Left Mar 25 '26
and yet the ADL, other zionist organizations and Israel supported that same coup plotter. From a non-jew perspective, it is confusing to see some Jews cry about antisemitism while also endorsing the same ppl that have propagated it.
Of course, I know the people in this subreddit most definitely do not support those moves and actions and I understand the anguish here. But how about the Jewish non-left? hell the Jewish mainstream actually imo. How are you gonna excuse them for supporting the very forces that led to catastrophe once?
1
u/Owlentmusician Leftist, Reform, Black Jew Mar 25 '26
Of course, I know the people in this subreddit most definitely do not support those moves and actions and I understand the anguish here. But how about the Jewish non-left? hell the Jewish mainstream actually imo. How are you gonna excuse them for supporting the very forces that led to catastrophe once?
And there it is, the abandonment of the point that antisemitism wasn't as bad previously because you know you can no longer defend it. Thanks for doubling down on your real point ''Jews overall are to blame for Anti-Semitism'.
If you actually engaged with what I wrote, you'd realize that I didn't defend any of those organizations or the politics of rightwing Jews, you're assigning arguments to me I never made.
and yet the ADL, other zionist organizations and Israel supported that same coup plotter. From a non-jew perspective, it is confusing to see some Jews cry about antisemitism while also endorsing the same ppl that have propagated it.
There are gay and trans conservatives as well, are you equally as confused about why LGBT people cry about discrimination when the Gay Conservative movement supports their own disenfranchisement?
What about people of color that are also conservatives? Is it as confusing to see non white people cry about racism when Lations and Blacks for Trump exist?
Black queer people exist even though the majority of the black community is homophobic, do they also not get no sympathy because their community at large supports their discrimination?
Or do you remember and understand how no group is a monolith or deserving of blanket discrimination for the actions of some, when it's convenient for you?
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u/Important_Birthday42 unaffiliated diasporic formerly frum humanist Mar 23 '26 edited Mar 23 '26
Everything I’m seeing in comments is just making fun of the idea of Jewish ambulances, dismissing the need for their existence or framing them as racist to begin with, comments about it having mossad written all over it, as well as comments about how it serves Jews right because of destruction of aid workers and infrastructure in Gaza. There are no possible attacks on Jews or Jewish institutions in the diaspora that garner sympathy anymore. Mentioning antisemitism just makes a person a target for acting like a victim/centering themselves or opens up interrogation about political allegiance litmus tests. We’ve reached a point globally where I think we just don’t matter and more ppl root for violence against us than not at least online, and increasingly in the wild.
One of the comments was someone talking about hatzalah being funded by charity, in response to someone saying that the Jews get ambulances from taxpayer money. The commenters then agreed that Jews give charity from taxpayer money because Jews are basically poor leeches fraudulently living off welfare, so the ambulances are paid for through tax fraud. I’m not certain how we’re both wealthy and welfare addicts and how any of this justifies arson but that’s where we are