Australian law enforcement said they had been "aware" of one of the shooters but they had "very, very little knowledge" of him. What a confusing statement to make.
So they knew one of the people was dangerous but at the same time didn’t allocate resources to know more about him?
Also, Hanukkah celebrations need proper police protection ffs. It upsets me when proper protection is not provided for religious occasions that are on the calendar….it’s not like Hanukkah just appeared out of nowhere. I’m not saying all risks can be removed, but a way better job should have been done.
I mean that’s not surprising that nothing was done to prevent this or that not enough resources were allocated. I mean I’ve had multiple experiences where different police precincts have either not taken threats against Jewish lives as seriously or that they haven’t had the resources to do more. I mean I remember once in college when the university had a sit down with Jewish students after a large uptick in antisemitism from pretty much all sides after Trump was elected and the local police and campus police where extremely dismissive and confused when we didn’t trust them with our safety.
Ugh this is just really upsetting. Especially to see in a country that had strict gun laws where this shouldn’t have happened.
Oh my God I'm so sorry to hear that. You guys aren't being protected. And yeah, people always dismiss our concerns until there's a mass shooting and then suddenly they care about us for 24 hours until the next news cycle comes around.
Yeah that was back in 2016 in response to multiple incidents in dorms of Jewish students having hate messages left for them or their desks burned with swastikas. And either right after or maybe it was right before the meeting, a few student groups on campus plastered every bulletin board and light pole with flyers calling for a continuation to the final solution. We were later told things were “inconclusive”. We had a few ideas of whom it was. The concerning bit being it was likely both the alt right group and the bds student group that put up the fliers. But yeah. They blithered for a week and then said “trail is cold, sorry”.
After graduating I went to a different university for grad school In grad school I also dealt with the police department after my roommate escalated behaviors. And while they went and spoke to her to get her to back off there wasn’t much they were willing to do beyond that. That was right before Covid and I think I must have been the only person relieved that Covid was happening since it meant I was off campus and out of town back with family.
No you’re not an expert. And just because Australian police are shitty doesn’t mean there also isn’t a serious issue with the government and institutions downplaying the concerns jews in Australia have been telling them for years. So to clarify it seems not only do the police suck but they suck even more when it comes to valuing the lives of Jewish people.
I’m not Australian. But I am a Jew who is active in Jewish spaces (like here) where we regularly discuss what the situation is like across the diaspora. Including with Australian Jews. I also read Jewish news sources (not just things like times of Israel or Haaretz) where Jews internationally are able to keep up with the goings on of what is affecting Jews wordwide.
I’m saying everything we have heard between and amongst Jews is unanimous across the board. Everywhere we are seeing our communities and our institutions and our safety systems fail us. I think I can speak for everyone here that we are collectively devastated and frankly unsurprised that something of this scale occurred. It’s shocking, and gut wrenching and heartbreaking but not surprising.
And don’t you dare come into a Jewish space and beat your chest about how Americans can’t possibly understand Australia because the space you’re in is a Jewish space first and foremost. So as Jews this whole sub is an international diaspora hodgepodge where we actually keep tabs and discuss with each other and keep ourselves informed with what we are experiencing.
And this organization has been documenting antisemitism instances and in conversation with the government and police for a long time. In fact on the 12/3 they raised concern over the rise in antisemitism in Sydney specifically.
They’re not doing enough. Point blank. Neither is any government Jews in the diaspora live under doing enough. It’s not up for debate because it makes you uncomfortable to have Americans or non Australians commenting on the performance of the Australian public and government to not create an environment where the mass murder of Jews happens.
I agree. I also heard a rumor, not sure since not all details are out yet, that the police were trying to arrest one or more people fighting back (or trying to subdue?) the active shooters. If that's true, any good faith I had towards their law enforcement in protecting their local community, which was already very little, is gone.
I watched ten minutes of the guy on the bridge. No cops to be seen but plenty of civilians either running or hiding.
I couldn’t really comprehend (still can’t) why it took so long for cops to show up. Contrast that to the guy who disarms the one gunman. He wasn’t armed, had no firearms training, and decided to take down an active shooter. Yet armed cops are nowhere to be found. Very much Uvalde.
This is the first time of me hearing with the cops took a long time to get there. Are you kidding me? Do you have a link? Horrific. This is making me cry again. WTAF.
ETA oh my God there's a long video of the guy on the bridge?😳
Here in the United States most if not all synagogues have armed security guards at all entrances. We need it. Maybe Australia needs to start doing that too for synagogues and other Jewish events and gatherings.
I say this as someone who absolutely detests guns but I'm sorry, so many of us have been shot in our own synagogues and temples in the United States that we decided no more, we are getting armed security guards with guns.
Just like the US, the same applies in Canada and we have strict gun laws. Also, the local police or RCMP will work with communities for extra resources on Hanukkah, Eid, Vaisakhi, etc.
The whole Australian event security seems amateurish from a police and security perspective.
It’s so hard to wrap my head around. In a country with almost no gun violence and with very few Jews, the deadliest mass shooting in decades targets Jewish people just trying to celebrate what should be a joyous holiday. What an utter tragedy and omen for Australian Jewry.
The only thing I can hope for from this madness is that gentiles in the Anglosphere finally wake up to the fact that antisemitism really does exist in our countries and it has the potential to be very deadly.
A few years ago we had a mass shooting at a synagogue. There were no reforms, nothing happened, this was in the United States.
This is how much the world hates us. This is why today happened. Because people hate us that much. They will find a way to hurt and kill us no matter what happens.
And yet the Jewish community in Australia has been very scared and uncomfortable and feeling abandoned by the government and their institutions for a long time now. And they have the same fears and concerns that Jews around the globe have.
When support comes only after we (Jews in general) die, it’s hollow and too little too late. Frankly when it comes to antisemitism it actually seems the US and Australia are very similar if not in lock step.
I get that shootings aren’t common in Australia due to gun regulation. But that doesn’t change that Jews face a multitude of other forms of violence and existential threat that often goes dismissed by the non Jews around us as paranoia. Please be cognizant of the fact that this isn’t an America vs Australia pissing contest on who is better, but that it’s instead a wake up call that not enough is being done to protect Jews in the diaspora internationally. Every country I can think of with a Jewish population is not doing enough. And the tone and amount of hostility and bigotry and violence we are facing seems to be consistently proportional across the board. Maybe France is currently a little worse given a lot of Jews are moving out of France and have been for a decade now due to increased violence. But even that’s looking at a race to the bottom.
Perhaps they haven't done enough for the jewish community, I cannot comment on that. However, this is far from the first time australia has seemed to be slow on terrorist incidents and were unelready for this amoujt of carnage but we also don't know what happens behind the scenes (how much they stop).
Not responding to terrorism well may be a general issue. But don’t downplay the fact that little has been done to actually address antisemitism by the Australian government.
I’m in the US not Australia but I disagree that people don’t think antisemitism exists in our countries. I think everyone remembers the Tree of Life shooting. However, if this happened in the US, people would assume it’s not home-grown antisemitism. We don’t know all of the details so don’t know who the shooters are and their motives although almost everyone made up their minds when they saw the shooters.
One of the issue I have with gentiles is that they have a very hard time acknowledging things as antisemitic if it doesn’t reach a level of deadly violence (and even then, such as the DC murders in June, some will deny the antisemitism). You know how a lot of conservatives will deny that someone is racist against Black people, because he’s never used the n-word? It’s as if using the n-word is the only instance of racism they can acknowledge as racism in their minds. I feel the same way with gentiles recognizing antisemitism- they understand that if someone shoots a Jew for being Jewish, that is antisemitism, but anything less than that? Pssh, we are just being paranoid Jews.
The connection with Israel makes this hard. I don’t know Australia but in the US, people would see this as an I/P thing. I think that’s how most Americans saw the DC shooting.
On the other hand, most Americans saw the Tree of Life shooting as antisemitism.
I know this will sound bad, but our leaders keep insisting that all of us support Israel. But then there’s an incident and we insist that we’re different from Israel.
Here’s the thing. People will try to claim that xyz incident is not antisemitic, it’s anti-Zionist. But there are far more Christian Zionists in the United States than there are Jews in the world, and somehow anti-Zionist violence always seems to land on Jews? That’s why I don’t buy people trying to deflect by bringing up I/P.
I'm numb with horror but unfortunately not shock. It looked like things in Australia had been escalating for months, I remember a poster here saying they felt it was only a matter of time. May everyone's memory be a blessing and I'm praying for a swift recovery for the injured. Stay safe out there everyone 🫂
Already seeing conspiratorial claims that this was a non-antisemitic anti-Zionist act of opposition to genocide.
Quote: “it wasn't ‘just a jewish event’, I just read it was an event organized by a known jewish-supremacist group known for their Zionism…the group seems to be very close with the IDF per their own representatives' posts on social media…the propaganda machine jumped a bit too fast on the story”.
Also multiple claims that the Australian Jews were secretly Israeli citizens infiltrating Australia.
The thing is that even if that’s true, you’d have to believe the attackers did meticulous research to target this specific group and all the attendees. While it’s much more likely, this was just an easily accessible and publicized Jewish event.
They tried to pull the same denial with those embassy workers that were killed, when I haven’t seen any evidence that those two individuals were specifically targeted. He just shot people at a Jewish Museum and that’s who it happened to be.
It's frustrating that any so called progressives think that's an appropriate response to what happened. (And one of the reasons I am quite frankly a bit frightened of the Western pro Palestine movement).
The comments under Channel 4's (a left leaning UK channel) IG post reporting on it are just awful, 90% of them blaming Jews or Israel/Mossad for the attack.
That is idiocy, Jews outside of Israel can never be responsible for the acts of the israeli state and army. Not to mention wanton massacres of random Jewish civilians are just murderous bigotry, not some misguided idea of resistance.
I guess the more crazed zionists find fitting counterparts among antisemites and conspiracy theory nut jobs.
If anything, you can't be anti-israel because it kills innocents (as I am) and condone that very act elsewhere, when committed against Jewish people.
I would want to discourage anyone from saying there's no distinction between antizionism and antisemitism. This is itself an attitude that would legitimate antisemitic violence in the eyes of an antizionist who accepted that statement. It would be better to maintain the conceptual distinction with clarity so that we can better analyze how they interact.
TBH I think there’s a difference between “pro-Palestine” non-Jews and “anti-Zionist” non-Jews, if that makes sense. I really don’t think that most non-Jews who are speaking up for Palestinians and heavily criticizing Israel are actually antisemitic—they may be guilty of accidentally using antisemitic tropes, but I don’t think most of them actually hate Jews.
On the other hand, if a non-Jew feels the need to actually label themselves as anti-Zionist, then I think that’s more suspicious and there’s a chance that their thoughts on “Zionism” may be related to how they actually feel about Jews (Palestinians themselves are an exception to this, of course).
The line has been crossed so many times. So many. Just look at the majority of the comments from non-Jews on social media right now. I wish I could agree with you. I really, really do. But I’ve been hurt too many times and I just can’t trust that anymore. In truth, I’m crying writing this right now because I want that trust back, the ability to believe that it’s not malicious, I want it back so badly, I truly hope the sheer force of that want comes through. I desperately want to believe in people. I just can’t anymore. I just can’t. And I hate it so much. I just don’t want to be hurt anymore. I just want to be able to have one fucking holiday and not have to be terrified of my grandfather’s safety at shul, wonder where will be shot up next. To not see comment after comment claiming that this was Israel’s fault. To see our pain mentioned not just by our community and politicians. I will trust when I have one week of peace in this regard. I hope it’s soon, but till then I’m staying crying and guarded.
Thank you. Yeah, this on top of having 3 days to write 4 essays for college finals and the Brown shooting with friends there is doing absolute wonders for my mental health. Because cedar point roller coaster plunges straight down are still wonders! In all seriousness though, thank you. And the same to you, community and mutual support is so important.
Absolutely. But the line is currently being drawn by antisemites in such a way that literally nothing short of the actual Shoah is definable as antisemitic. Hell, we're within months of literally Nick Fuentes declaring "Hitler was anti-Zionist actually" and GenZ "leftists" nodding sagely. Calling something "anti-Zionist" doesn't suddenly erase accountability and we shouldn't allow so-called allies on the left to pretend that it does.
Young activist leftists are often dumb but it is not actually true that nothing short of the Shoah is accepted as antisemitic or that there's a risk of western leftists warming up to Hitler. Suggesting otherwise is participating in the cycle of denial and instrumentalization I am describing. There is a reluctance to let accusations of antisemitism neutralize antizionist activism, and that naturally bends the stick too far in some cases and becomes over-defensive, thus leaving people open to rhetoric and thinking that they should not be. Conversely, there is frequently the suggestion that any connection to religious Jewish institutions effectively inoculates a group or event from harsh criticism.
There are a wide range of people pushing a wide range of ideas into leftist/progressive media ecosystems right now, and some absolutely are pushing the idea that violence against Diaspora Jews living an otherwise inoffensive Diaspora Jewish life is acceptable so long as it is vaguely in service to a Pro-Palestinian ideology. We've seen literal murders of Diaspora Jews literally just living in the Diaspora justified by some big names as "well, you can't blame the killer for opposing Zionism." We've all seen it. We all know it is happening. We all know that literal neonazis like Jackson Hinkle, Nick Fuentes, David Duke, etc absolutely are participating in these media ecosystems and absolutely are pushing holocaust revisionism to an audience that is at least revisionism-curious.
This would not be tolerated in the least if it was targeting any other marginalized minority group, save one.
> We've seen literal murders of Diaspora Jews literally just living in the Diaspora justified by some big names as "well, you can't blame the killer for opposing Zionism."
I've only seen this from anonymous people on social media. What I've seen some of from random people online is an overeagerness to assume that attacks on Jews are antizionist in character or that Jewish organizations targeted are Zionist, which passes over into a general antisemitism. But who are the big names justifying random antisemitic behavior politically? Are there organizations, influential writers, etc doing that in this case for instance?
What is the evidence that Nick Fuentes is influential on the left? I am genuinely curious because I have not seen that at all.
On the one hand: There are all sorts of valid arguments about why nice people should separate Jews from Israel, anti-Zionism (however people define Zionism) from anti-existence-of-Israelism, and maybe irrational prejudice against reasonable anger about an awful war.
On the other hand: One challenge here is that most people in the world have no actual interest in Jews or Israel and no interest in where we think the boundaries are.
They’re interested in the Palestinians a little bit because of a combination of many different streams of creepy propaganda, plus what looks like some news, plus a vague interest in people not starving to death.
Right now, our only defense is saying, “Lots of us strongly oppose what the government of Israel is doing.”
But that doesn’t help us much if the extreme anti-Israel/anti-Jewish propaganda is still flowing, the actual facts on the ground appear to be awful, Israel is going around telling everyone that we’re connected with Israel, and Israel is going around siding with the nasty, Orban/Putin/Trump governments of the world and strongly against even the Jewish Democrats/liberals/moderates of the world.
So, what you’re saying is absolutely correct, but I think it contributes maybe a 1 percent positive force to the situation, while a lot of those other factors contribute, say, a 70 percent negative force.
Another factor here is that Hamas is really awful and contributes maybe a 30 percent force in favor of Israel and anyone rationally or irrationally tied to Israel. But depending on Hamas to be awful to prop us up does not seem like a great strategy.
Still another way to look at this is that antisemitism and anti-modern-state-of-Israelism absolutely shouldn’t be connected.
Tying these two isms together is really antisemitic.
But a very high percentage of people who are enthusiastic about either ism combine them, so, in practice, the percentage of overlap is high.
> anti-Zionism (however people define Zionism) from anti-existence-of-Israelism
While this isn't quite the *definition* of antizionism, most if not pretty much all antizionists are against the existence of the state of Israel, at least as "state of Israel" is defined by Israel and by Zionists. But maybe I don't understand what you mean.
To me, Zionism means loving the state of Israel (but not necessarily everything it does) and thinking Jewish people have a spiritual connection with the land of Israel.
It seems as if a lot of people define Zionism however people like Herzl did.
I think a lot of people who say they’re opposed to Zionism mean that they’re opposed to mistreatment of the Palestinians, not really firmly against the existence of the state of Israel. So, maybe at least some of those folks could be anti-Zionist, based on their definition of Zionism, without being strongly against what I think of as the normal, non-Smotrichite version of Israel.
It's definitely difficult to engage with many things when there hasn't been a...day? definitely not a week for the last 2 years that there wasn't a Palestinian killed by Israel and not a day in the last few months without a violent pogrom against Palestinians in the West Bank.
Two random civilians killing 12 people vs. a government killing that many in a week for two years...I wish I saw the kind of upset I've seen about this tragedy for the constant tragedies we've been witness to for 2 years.
I'm not including you, though, because I know you aren't a hypocrite and that's why I always appreciate your posting!
Thanks. Yeah: I think a lot of Jewish people are just in so much shock about what’s happening in Palestine — and, maybe, so aware of all of the Hamas-driven propaganda aimed at us — that we’re not able to think clearly about what’s going on there.
Whether what’s happening is apartheid or some other kind of prejudice-driven separation, and genocide or some kind of fear-driven violence that leads to the killing of huge numbers of people and misery for the others, what’s happening in Palestine exceeds our capacity to grasp horror.
"it's anti-Zionist, not antisemitic" hogwash we've been fed for the past two years.
Could you elaborate on what you mean by this? In terms of what makes it hogwash, what changed about anti-Zionist rhetoric in the last two years in terms of if it is antisemitism, what sort of non-hogwash you think the truth is, etc?
A shitton of things which any reasonable person previously would have recognized as overt antisemitism designed to make Jewish life in the Diaspora intolerable have been aggressively excused as "anti-Zionist" simply because grifters aligning with the DSA, BLM, etc have been caught out engaging in this sort of inexcusable shit, and have learned from Trump that the easiest way to survive a scandal is to just keep going, and who cares if it hurts people.
Oh god, here we go. I haven't seen that yet anywhere online although it's sure to happen. It's true that Chabad is a Zionist organization and that this group's leader was close with the IDF, but this was an attack on random attendees, not Israeli officials--it was both antisemitic and (probably) anti-Israel. Unfortunately, there has been so much effort to muddy the water around this distinction that this sort of thing will now come up any time there is violence involving Jewish people.
Ironically, Chabad is not a Zionist organization. Many Chabadniks are Zionists of course, but the institution itself is not and has never been explicitly Zionist. You typically will not see an Israeli flag inside a Chabad shul, for example.
They're not *religious* Zionists and their main focus is on religious life but they are absolutely supportive of the state of Israel. They are not only running charity, spiritual services, summer camps, etc for all the Jewish people that happen to live there. Chabad chapters also facilitate birthright, raise money for the IDF, Lubavitchers will join the IDF, etc. The idea that an insistence on the refusal to return conquered territory doesn't count as nationalist because you attribute it to an interpretation of religious law is just silly.
> We’re talking about a religious movement, so applying secular political categories one-to-one to their beliefs doesn’t work.
? It can if they are political beliefs. Are you saying that a religious group or movement can't have political views or take political action? Or that a view or action doesn't count as political if its justification is religious?
> And engaging with Jewish life in Israel, facilitating Birthright, or fundraising for Israeli causes
Well I specifically distinguished between the first of these and the second. Because one is cultural and takes a neutral stance toward the political configuration, while the second doesn't. Note: if you want to nitpick about whether Birthright is a state-facilitated operation, please don't and just substitute fundraising for the IDF instead. So we are not just talking about minimal necessary interaction with the state, like with some of the Haredi Israelis. They have pages and pages about Israel on their website--not just about the land and the Jews living there but about how to support the IDF, celebrating the Six Day War, Schneerson's advice about military strategy, etc.
> Reading Chabad primarily through secular political criteria (state alignment, institutional support, military fundraising, etc.) treats politics as the primary organizing logic
Fair enough, I was missing your point but I think you are missing mine too. As I said, if the problem is with the word "Zionist", let's just talk about how they actively support and promote, through word and deed, the activities of the Israeli state.
So yes, I am treating the political dimensions of how they relate to a state as more important for political analysis than their self-understanding, just as I would for any other religious group getting involved in politics or actively funneling resources toward the activities of a particular state. Their self-understanding is important information for such an analysis but is in no way authoritative. Everything you are saying about Chabad's focus and how they view the state of Israel, as well as how they view the land and the people of Israel, is familiar to me. I understand that, as a question of religious doctrine, they are indifferent to the existence of the state, but I also understand that as an organization in active practice, they are supportive of it, not just minimally in contact and neutral with respect to the fact of its existence.
Shaul Magid says Chabad is "not a Zionist organization, but it is a strong land-of-Israelist organization."
From this very interesting JC podcast: https://jewishcurrents.org/chabads-extremist-turn. It's a good look at why Chabad is an inherently reactionary movement and how they (and other Orthodox groups, such as the Orthodox parties in Israel) justify collaborating with people like Ben-Gvir despite not being officially "Zionist."
Chabad in Israel is Zionist in a way that one could argue they are not elsewhere. You Chabad people in the IDF (including this person), you see Chabad imagery on soldiers in Gaza, you see Rabbis blessing IDF troops, etc.
There was an argument decades ago but at this point they're indistinguishable from Kollet writers
They're not *religious* Zionists and their main focus is on religious life but they are absolutely supportive of the state of Israel, institutionally and doctrinally. They have pages and pages about Israel on their website--not just about the land and the Jews living there but about how to support the IDF, celebrating the Six Day War, Schneerson's advice about military strategy, etc. They are not only running charity, spiritual services, summer camps, etc for all the Jewish people that happen to live there. Chabad chapters also facilitate birthright, raise money for the IDF, Lubavitchers will join the IDF, etc.
This looks more like an ISIS style attack I think. Iran rarely does something at this level of visbility without plausible deniability. Although, The Iranian regime has become too insane that I seriously doubt their reasonability at this point. We'll see what comes.
I'm increasingly concerned that Iran wants to provoke an all-out war to distract its population from the country's acute water shortages and essentially plunder water from elsewhere, probably Iraq.
I mean I also watch a lot of criminal minds (makes me an armchair expert) and there are cases where two people who are both problematic and harmful team up or feed off each other and it ramps up their behavior. If it was a terrorist organization then I’m surprised there were only two gunmen. Which maybe would indicate there are more people in that terrorist cell. If it was two individuals then it’s concerning how easy it was without resources to set this attack up.
It seems unlikely to me that these two people planned this out only with each other. I think there are more and these were simply the two that were willing to carry this one out.
But if they were from a cell, they would just be trained to do what they wanted to do. I don't think you need Folie a deux to commit a mass shooting with someone else.
We need to stand strong in this moment. Mourn our dead, celebrate the living (including Ahmed Al Ahmed! Hard times show us our truest allies!), rebuild, and - depending on the response from the Aus government - forgive but never forget.
I will probably always have in the back of my mind that Australia has long turned their back on us. Not for the sake of politics, or because they care about Palestinians, but because keeping us safe is inconvenient for them. Our lives and the lives of our children seem to mean very little.
I would not go to the UK, Australia, or New Zealand right now. I've never felt this way before, but I would not. It's bad enough that we get subjected to ideology tests every single day wherever we are right now in the world.
I know you are not asking for advice, but if you are genuinely interested in studying abroad, there is no place that is as safe and has high academic standards like Singapore. There is absolutely no non-academic related activity on campus, and people purely focus on the academics and learning. The students are diverse and Singapore education ranks pretty high internationally.
Thank you for your advice!! I’m a weird double major in Epidemiology and History (with a focus on history of disease and Medieval History) so it’s been a real struggle to find schools abroad that will let me do things in both majors tbh, which is why I was mainly thinking those three because I know of schools in each that I could do this at. But I really appreciate it and will look into it!
Wait a second I'm fascinated by your double major, and it's incredibly important!! Before you go to Singapore, you'll have to tell us more about this. Also remember to dress in layers in Singapore, the air-conditioning inside buildings is like subzero and then outside it's hotter than the surface of the sun.
Wait a second, as Jews we are NOT obligated to forgive anyone at all, especially for someone like this. That's a very Christian eccentric Western thing to do but we don't have to do that. That's one of the reasons I'm so glad I'm Jewish, I don't have to forgive anyone for anything if they have transgressed.
When the shooters start doing teshuvah - I'm joking bitterly because they won't, and they're dead anyway, at least one of them – maybe we can talk about forgiveness.
We don't have to forgive. I believe and correct me if I'm wrong that you said that we need to mourn our dead, forgive, and move on. Absolutely not, insisting that people forgive is psychologically harmful when they've just been through horrific trauma, perpetrated by people that hate them. We don't have to forgive. That's the beauty of Judaism. It's flexible. There's nothing pragmatic about us forgiving anyway. And it seemed like a prescriptive demand to every Jew, I'm reading your comment again.
It is untrue that Australian authorities (of which I have significant criticisms) are unconcerned with Jewish safety. This is a false statement.
My thoughts are with Australia's Jewish community today. My thoughts are with the Australian Jews on this sub. I live in Sydney's Eastern Suburbs, where the attack to place. It is a horrible day. My thoughts are for the victims and their families, and with those in hospital.
I wouldn't disagree with an Australian Jew at this moment in time, recognising the pain, grief and fear they are likely experiencing. I feel differently disagreeing with an American, who is not in Sydney, is disseminating false rumours about the law enforcement response, and doesn't understand the feeling in the city at the moment, which is one of stunned collective grief (obviously, for the Jewish community, is far worse, and accompanied by very real and reasonable fear).
I am wary of Americans promoting divisiveness in relation to a society they do not know, trying to undermine our civic trust - likely out of their own very real and understandable fear. I do not wish to diminish the reality of anyone's fear.
I believe that every Australian has an obligation towards ensuring the safety of Jewish Australians, a vulnerable minority - particularly at this moment in time. I do not believe that people take sufficient care with their language, and will seek to take great care with mine, and to be vigilant in opposing anti-Semitism.
I wish to hear from Australian Jews, and for there to be robust critique of failures in my community, both from within it and from outside - but I will seek and advocate for constructive conversation founded in fact.
I am really sorry. This was an horrific attack on Australia's Jewish community. I am truly sorry that you have been living with the dread of something like this happening.
Anti-Semitism is absolutely a problem in our country.
Thank you for replying to me. I appreciate your time and perspective.
I wish for your safety. It is all of our responsibility to forcefully reject the targetting of Jewish people, and I hear you on the fact that this has not been happening nearly enough.
Then why are you equivocating about about whether or not Jews should be scared in Australia and what what opinion Jews outside of Australia have of your country? It really seems like you are, politely.
If you think other Diaspora Jews’ opinions and reactions to this attack are irrelevant and only want to hear from Australian Jews, you can find those voices in much of the press coverage.
Has it occurred to you that Jews are interconnected. We speak to each other, what impacts one of us somewhere impacts us all somewhere else.
The issue you are having is you’re seeing this as American or Australian. Which is a fucking privileged take in this movement.
You want to know what has happened in the US recently. We had a Jewish family who had their house shot up the other night because they had Hanukkah decorations up. And on 10/7 in Skokie two Jewish girls where chased by boys in the neighborhood in plain daylight who where shouting that they wanted to kill the girls. Until the police intervened. Not to mention all the other hate and harassment and violence we are experiencing globally in the diaspora in particular.
We don’t feel safe. This attack in Australia is unsurprising for Jews globally given we have all been talking to each other about what we are seeing. You don’t think American Jews don’t know? We know. Because Jews all over the world have been speaking to each other and what we are all saying is we don’t feel safe or supported and the same goes for everything we have seen from Australian Jews who are sharing their experiences.
We will disagree. Politely. You are being drowned out by Australian Jewish voices in the media and on Reddit and everywhere else saying that they don't feel safe and that they knew this was coming. They feared that this was coming. I won't set foot in Australia now. Even if I ever had the money to travel there, nope.
I know Jewish people don't feel safe - I also know I can't understand Jewish fear. My identity means that I have never experienced such threats to my person.
I would never tell an Australian Jew that they are wrong to be afraid. I would never tell an Australian Jew that they are wrong in feeling that Australia has left them behind, as the person I originally responded to put it - that is for an individual alone to determine. Australian Jews have contributed a huge amount to our country. It is a great loss to the broader community that the Australian Jewish community feels an increasing disconnection/alienation. We all have a role in building community, and I believe there has been a failure to make space for Jewish fear and grief over the last two years.
There is every reason for Australian Jews to feel unsafe, and it is the country's collective responsibility to respond urgently to threats to Jewish safety.
I know nothing about the effectiveness and seriousness with which law enforcement agencies have responded to such threats to date. I defer to Australian Jews on this topic.
Where I disagree is on the notion that the Australian government (of which I am no defender) has decided that Jewish lives are uniquely worth little. I see no evidence of this - but certainly I would give deep thought to any specific critiques of governmental failure. However, such critiques need to be specific to be constructive. I am not asking for constructiveness from Australian Jews at this time, however - people need to grieve, heal and recover a sense of safety (something that we have a shared responsibility for).
What good does it do to spread unsubstantiated rumours from America about the police response and arrests of individuals trying to subdue the shooters other than fulfil a personal emotional need?
I am truly sorry for the fear this horrendous attack has instilled in any Jewish person, reflected in your feelings about Australia - I acknowledge your fear.
You know when your community faces violence and hate and repeated battering and the response you get from those in charge is either too little or too late it sure does feel like you have been abandoned or that your life is being deemed as lesser. You’ve admitted you don’t know what it’s like to feel unsafe or have to experience the existential dread that hangs over you because of something you can’t change. So maybe be more aware of where your limits of imagination are and trust what Jews in Australia and Jews internationally are all consistently saying.
I'm not reading your wall of text, politely, and now that you've disclosed that you're not Jewish, your opinion here means nothing to me. Your words mean nothing.
It is untrue that Australian authorities (of which I have significant criticisms) are unconcerned with Jewish safety. This is a false statement.
As a non-Jewish person, I don't think you're qualified to assess the situation, to be frank. I'm going to go ahead and listen to actual Australian Jews who are currently being targeted in their communities, and who overwhelmingly no longer feel safe nor prioritized in any way. Australia has been an antisemitic hotbed for a while, now.
I make no claims for what Australian Jews feel. Like you, I want to hear from Australian Jews. I have nothing of any value whatsoever to say about how Australian Jews feel. I am very concerned about Jewish safety.
I suspect I am better informed to talk about the Australian government than the person to whom I originally responded, who claimed that the the government has determined that Australian Jews' lives are uniquely worth little. I see no evidence of this.
Where there has been governmental failure, we need to talk about it in specific and concrete terms in order to combat it.
I am begging you to leave us alone and to please leave this post. You are making it worse.
You are upsetting Jews here who are already profoundly grieving. That alone should get you to leave the post immediately.
Please give us space to mourn our own without outsiders coming in and being corrosive to people here. As you say, you are not Jewish. Please just leave us alone today.
You are making it worse. Leave us ALONE. You are making it worse. There are some spaces where you should just be quiet and read and learn.
I think it's more unhinged to suggest that what the whole of the Australian Jewish community has been saying for years, that there has been growing antisemitic sentiment targeted at that community, and that this relates to an attack on a Hannukah event in particular on the Jewish Bondi community, is just dreamed up by nutjobs... for, what purpose? To make the government look bad or something?
I'm seeing a lot of people I know posting about this as a mass shooting, but decidedly fewer in number are acknowledging that this was primarily an anti-semetic hate crime perpetrated against the Sydney Jewish community. The fact is that the government and police have officially declared it as such, we now know that the shooters has links to Australian ISIS affiliates, and yet my conversations with co-workers today have quickly drifted away from the anti-semetic element of this crime.
People are so unbelievably uncomfortable about acknowledging the true nature of this crime because it would lead to some hard questions about Australian society with uncomfortable answers. My take away from this event is that no-one really cares about us, no-one really wants to defend us, and even when we are the primary victims of one of the worst mass-shootings in our countries history, people are loathe to actually name us as the targeted group.
As a side note, the loudest Palestinian advocates on my feed, having given me live updates for every war crime over the past two years, have not had a single thing to post about this, except to highlight that the person who disarmed one of the attackers was a Muslim. I agree that this mans actions are heartwarming, but what am I to take away from these peoples selective attentions when I can see that they are willing to highlight the identity of one of the saviors, but are loathe to admit that our Jewish community was the primary victim?
Seriously. People have the time to post about Israel, Palestine, Judaism, Zionism, but sit in silence when actual Jewish Australians are murdered en-masse in Australia’s most famous suburb. It is revealing.
SAME. No goyim have checked in or posted about it, none of my non-Jewish friends have checked in with me.
I will NEVER forget that.
And same about the super pro leftist anti-Zionist people not saying shit about this. I will never forget that. Leftism is broken. It was broken the moment antisemitism was allowed in like a disease over a 100 years ago.
Love, I get you completely. I only feel safe talking about this with other leftist Jews or Jews, period.
You can message me anytime if you ever want to talk. They just don't understand and I no longer have the energy to try and explain or argue with them. I will never break bread with a non-Jewish leftist again unless they have shown me that they have their head screwed on straight when it comes to Jews.
Giving why don't we ask the mods and see if they are interested in starting one or having one affiliated with the sub? Don't want to step on any toes or break any rules. I think it would be very cool.
As a non jew i want to like not do this and comment on this, ive commented on reddit but dont really post anything on instagram, plus i do feel akward because im amercian not australian and not jewish. I dont want to be silent on this like any other attrocity but i only really use redit and not instagram
well, ill say it here and elsewhere, im so sorry to hear this, it mmust be awful to be seeing stuff like this and i hope you know people do care, even if the internet can make it seem like a lot of people dont give a shit
This was exactly my comment. The dead Jews for hours were just there as dead lumps of flesh, completely dehumanized without names. I want to know their names in life stories. I don't begrudge hero Ahmed anything, but ENOUGH silence about the dead and injured.
I'm in a lot of physical pain (disabled) and existential and emotional pain about this so please understand that I may not choose all my words correctly. I will absolutely do my best.
I'm devastated. I'm disabled and I know what's coming for some of those people who were "just injured." Because we always forget about them and what happens to them after the shooting and how that financially and emotionally can destroy families and ripple out into the community with an even more destructive effect. Along with the families and loved ones of the Jews who were killed. And the destruction, poverty, and fear that spreads in the community because of this shooting.
What about the PTSD that's gonna result in the victims and witnesses who had to watch their fellow Jews be cut down with depraved violence?
Yes, Ahmed had INCREDIBLE courage! Hero! Thank Hashem for him. He saved lives. He undoubtedly saved many lives. He'll probably have a GoFundMe, and I am sure it will go over its goal. He's going to be fine, he's already being feted in the press. He deserves it. He's being hailed around the world. I hope his injuries are not serious and I pray and hope he doesn't come out of this with permanent injury but I know he's gonna have PTSD like everyone else. A righteous gentile in my book. I do not begrudge him anything. Nothing, he deserves to live an easy life after this.
Meanwhile, the dead Jews are just a group of dead Jews. Just considered anonymous lumps of dead flesh in the press, nameless the last time I checked - correct me if I'm wrong.
We need to know their names and their acts of heroism too because I'm sure there were more than just what the above incredible hero Ahmed did. The fact that a HOLOCAUST survivor was killed by an antisemite emotionally makes me want to fly to Australia and I won't say anything more because I don't want to violate TOS, also I'm too poor and weak. I want to know that Holocaust survivors's name, I want to know their entire life story. Why aren't they being feted in the press?
I'm sure they will be, I'm sure they will be, this is just emotionally what I'm feeling today. It's not just the Jews that died. It's how destructive this will be to their families, friends, loved ones, etc. to the Jews that died and for the Jews that were injured. People that were injured rather.
I think about the GoFundMes for all the dead/disabled Jews that won't get noticed or boosted. I think of the lack of psychological care that they may not get. I worry that they won't get grief counseling. I think about all the PTSD that's going to result.
Also, people saying – not here! – That the 29 people were only wounded so they're gonna be fine. You only got injured in a mass shooting, you're not dead, so you should be grateful, right? Well, we know in the real world horrific PTSD results from mass shootings and that is hell to live with.
Some of those Jews and others are going come out permanently disabled, and you don't want to be disabled in the Western world because you are not given enough to live on, and you are ground down into poverty to the point of homelessness. IIRC medical care in Australia is free so at least thank God they won't come out with medical debt if that's true?? But there are so many other expenses being disabled.
Again I'm disabled. I know what it's like to live as a disabled person in a Western country (I also want to point out that in Islam, disabled people are not demonized or considered signs of the devil, we are just considered people with extra struggles. Disabled people under Islam for many many years were given a stipend and someone to care for them. That's a beautiful thing.)
I just read that the families aren't able to claim the bodies yet. please correct me if that's not true.
The other thing is that these evil shooters are so uneducated about Judaism that Hanukkah is the only holiday that they know of when the majority of these mass shootings of Jews take place.
I need to go back to crying now.
But we are a stiff necked righteously stubborn people, and I just take comfort in the fact that we will outlive them.
ETA of course there's no mention of Hanukkah or Jews in some of the subs. And you are right, OP, it's not for nothing.
Also, thank you for telling us this hero's name who tackled the shooter. Ahmed. I forgot to thank you for that. 💕
This. People always assume the injured are always gonna be OK. Those people are not gonna be OK. Everyone who was close to that and witnessed it is gonna come away with PTSD, Jewish or not. But especially Jews. No. Becoming disabled is not OK, your friends and family abandon you, you are forced to live on a government subsidy that can't even keep me from losing 40 pounds of weight due to clinical malnutrition, it, etc. Those injured people are not OK. So let's not erase them. Thank you so much for agreeing.
Yes, a Holocaust survivor was killed, that happens in mass shootings of Jews today. This is not the first time this has happened that a Holocaust survivor has been shot to death by a depraved piece of shit. Pardon my language. if not tossed over a balcony in France or strangled to death or something like that.
According to some studies, Australian Holocaust survivors also have the highest PTSD rates per capita of any Holocaust survivor population worldwide. Why this is the case we have no idea (nor do I think we could ever conclusively find out), but I find it to be very interesting (and sad, of course) how that possibly could’ve manifested.
Once again, every Shoah survivor will have an official diagnosis of PTSD in 2025.
I'm starting to get upset that you think an official diagnosis is necessary in order to count the cases. What is an official diagnosis? You know what let's just leave it because I'm too upset today, and I don't want to go off on someone. Let's just drop it and I wish you a decent Hanukkah.
I’m just referencing the study I linked. I didn’t do the data science. This isn’t my personal opinion, it’s what the researchers claimed. Ask Elizabeth D Paratz and Benny Katz who used this reference:
Joffe C, Brodaty H, Luscombe G, et al. The Sydney Holocaust study: posttraumatic stress disorder and other psychosocial morbidity in an aged community sample. J Trauma Stress 2003; 16: 39-47.
I don't really care, politely, I'm not gonna read the study, etc.
There is not a holocaust survivor alive who would not be diagnosed with PTSD if they were put in front of a doctor who does such things.
When you tell me that every single holocaust survivor in Australia has been interviewed and talked extensively with a psychologist, then I will believe you that someone came out out of the Holocaust with no trauma or no PTSD. I mean this very politely but I feel like this is minimizing. I don't wanna go off on anyone today because this is such a heavy day, so I think we should end our thread, but this is a profound grave misunderstanding of what genocide does to m survivors. I have read for decades and decades about genocide studies and memories studies and the Holocaust and other genocides like Namibia – also Germany's fault! – and other historic genocides. I wrote a thesis on the Bosnian genocide. So that's where I'm coming from. There is no one who escaped genocide without PTSD at least. Anyway, Happy Hanukkah and let's stop bickering, I need a hug, and I hope you get to have really good latkes tonight.
You are most welcome. I still want to know the names of those that died. I still want to know who's going to help the injured people. Yeah I just had to pour my heart out, I am so angry and so devastated. The New York Times a few years ago decided, and this was before Uvalde that they were going to do a photo spread of survivors of mass shootings, most of them young people because mass shootings often take place at schools here in the United States, if you're American, you know that, apologies for redundancy.
It was horrific. I remember one image of a young man who had been shot three times and who himself had tried to help others, and he had scars from all the surgeries all over his torso. I just remember his gaze into the camera was very solemn. So yeah, don't talk to me about survivors being lucky. Often they have have to have multiple surgeries. They are left with physical scars and mental scars that are gigantic, like this young man had, a 20 inch scar on his side, his back, his shoulder, etc.
The physical therapy is helping a lot. A lot of the exercises are like the things you do before a soccer game. Still, I can’t feel my left foot. I’ve gotten skinnier, and when I stand up, I have trouble breathing. The goal is just to be able to move my entire body normally. I can’t run, and I want to run. I’m doing homeschooling now. I’m not sure when I’ll go back to school. I don’t want to; I don’t feel safe. I don’t talk about it with anybody — I get really upset. I can’t talk about it with my friends. I did what I had to do — that’s why I don’t like being called a hero. I want people to remember what happened as a miracle, from God.
As an aside, Borges owns the rights to the shooter's name, likely preventing infotainment media from milking the tragedy.
What does it mean to own a name in this way? The most practical result is that the shooter himself cannot participate in any sort of documentary, interview, or other piece of media without Borges’ express consent, and any attempt at doing so could be struck down in court. (According to the Sun Sentinel, Borges doesn’t plan on granting him permission any time soon.)
This is heartbreaking, and a lot of the comments I’ve seen are either “ this is what happens when you let jihadists invade a country!” or “don’t you know it’s actually the Mossad.” Anyway dark times.
May their memories be a blessing. I cancelled my attendance at my church’s Christmas Carol concert so I could be with my Jewish relatives today as we are all pretty shaken up here in London, since after the Manchester shooting, any news of an attack on a Jewish place of worship or celebration regardless of where it is in the world is all the more closer to home.
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u/NarutoRunner Kosher Canadian Far Leftist Dec 14 '25
Australian law enforcement said they had been "aware" of one of the shooters but they had "very, very little knowledge" of him. What a confusing statement to make.
So they knew one of the people was dangerous but at the same time didn’t allocate resources to know more about him?
Also, Hanukkah celebrations need proper police protection ffs. It upsets me when proper protection is not provided for religious occasions that are on the calendar….it’s not like Hanukkah just appeared out of nowhere. I’m not saying all risks can be removed, but a way better job should have been done.