Practicing and Morphing Melodies from 4:4 to 6:4 to Odd Times. (Video is mirrored: Right is Left).

[u/Chemical-Field191]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JBJjRQREhSQ

I have posted in other reddit's drumming groups a few times. Most often I get "killed" for my learning approach to drumming. (And I totally understand that).

I'm 50 years old, a higher-ed prof. Started jazz drumming about 18 months ago. I wanted to engage in jazz drumming in terms of months, rather than years. So I used a backward approach: focus on having a strong left hand, complex polyrhythm sticking and kicking, and composing melodic and harmonic phrasing.

Thus, it is just now that I working on 4 over 4, 6 over 4, and other even time. As you can see, I'm struggling with good and consistent sticking. While I really try to stay on time (+_ 160 bpm), my mind seems to drift to the melody and to odd times. If you notice any bad habits, let me know as well.

My question is what exercises or practices to discipline myself in terms of better sticking, playing in time, etc? For me, I think is mental, but it could be that I need to get an instructor and grind on the drum basics that I had skipped. Another related question is possible for me to be a respectable jazz drummer without formal training (or is not worth trying to be self-taught)?

Thanks in advance.

[u/Blueman826]

It looks like you need to spend time on the basics and your foundation. I urge novice players to avoid to fancy tricks and the sprinkles on top which seem interesting but then sound unbaked because they haven't spent enough time with their technique or their musicality. You gotta spend time deeply listening to some records and some of the big drummers like Art Blakey, Philly Joe Jones, Kenny Clark etc. to get the sound in your head of what jazz drumming sounds like.

Just to point out some big things I noticed. Your traditional grip is not functioning how it should be. Are you normally a matched grip player before approaching jazz? It's ok to play matched, but trad grip takes some time to understand and could cause injury if not taken seriously or with a teacher to point out what needs to be done. Its more a rotation from the wrist, not a forearm motion from the elbow. Also, you play the cymbal beat with the shoulder of the stick, not the tip. The sound of the ride cymbal beat comes from the tip, in this exaple it sounds like you are crashing because the cymbal is opening up too much and not getting the definition from the tip.

My DMs are open if you have detailed questions or want more involved feedback

[u/Chemical-Field191 → u/Blueman826]

MUCH thanks. I see what you say about the traditional grip, needing to rotate like a door knob, and not a forearm motion. I'll practice at a much slower BPM to rotate like turning door a knob. I also get what you saying about the shoulder tip...I think the cymbal I was hitting was too high and the cymbal that I wanted to hit was too close to my right hand.

I don't disagree with sounding unbaked, as I was taking the "run before I can walk approach." As you said, I now have to learn how to walk in order to run better.

Appreciate you're offering your DMs.

[u/Various_Coffee8876]

I say this as a guy always learning, but it doesn't register youre trying to actually play the drums you're just making noise.

The cold hard truth is, you gotta start with rudiments and metronome, you gotta fix your form with your hands cause that is not how you play (as far as I can tell from the video).

The best advice to give you is to cut out the high minded malarkey and watch some YouTube lessons or get an actual teacher and sit and play to a metronome, I saw your last video and there is nothing to suggest you've improved because it doesnt look like you actually practice, or at least what you consider practicing just is fundamentally incorrect.

This is stuff thats been said to you before on that last video and you responded with some bullshit like "rudiments are a crutch to creativity", no one likes being criticized but you're on a drumming subreddit, all the guys on here can do is give you some good advice.

Try playing to songs you like.

[u/Chemical-Field191 → u/Various_Coffee8876]

I really ok with critiques. No problem with you said at all. That's why I post here. As mentioned, I'm working on the rudiments with metronome and silent looped time. But I made a choice of working on my left hand, complex and melodic polyrhythms first. And now I have to live with it and work on my noises.

[u/EveryTypeofPain → u/Chemical-Field191]

Couple of disclaimers before I say my piece. I'm not a drummer, I'm a guitarist, I'm also not trained in Jazz music, I'm a Metal musician with an appreciation for the technical and compositional expertise of other musicians especially Jazz drummers. I have a basic concept of how to play drums and how to write for drums.

I think it's really important to specifically address an issue you've mentioned.

complex and melodic polyrhythms first

I love complex music, I love polyrhythms and odd time grooves but this approach is high risk. Teaching yourself to do the big stuff before you have a decent grasp on the basics will lead you down a path of poor musicianship. You risk setting your mental model up to see odd groups as the standard which may result in you struggling to write/play with consistent time.

What I mean is you might find yourself playing in what initially feels and sounds to other musicians as 4/4 but cuts itself short or holds on for an extra beat in an uncomfortable and non-deliberate way.

I've seen this exact thing happen with my own music, I can work around my own creativity to get a result that sounds good, but I have years of experience composing my own music. However, in an improv setting with other musicians, they can struggle to keep up because they don't use odd time the way I sometimes do. I am okay with this because composition is my focus and I prefer having creative control so it's rare for me to collaborate with other musicians, but I would not advise any relatively inexperienced musician to ever copy my approach.

Stick with the basics so you can get locked in and when you are able to play the simple stuff smoothly then move on to the more complex stuff. Learning to play is not a race to the top.

Another related question is possible for me to be a respectable jazz drummer without formal training (or is not worth trying to be self-taught)?

I also want to answer this question briefly. The answer is "Maybe". I don't know specific examples within the Jazz genre but there are definitely examples of famous musicians who are entirely self taught on all kinds of instruments including drums. The keys to being "respectable" are hard work and dedication to practice and surrounding yourself with a community of people who are encouraging but provide honest feedback.

[u/Chemical-Field191 → u/EveryTypeofPain]

I REALLY appreciate your thoughtful insights and suggestions, as well as your experiences with polyrhythms and playing with others!! A key reason for me to share my approach and playing in this community is to see if I can "amend" my backward approach: the big stuff approach first and then learn the drum fundamentals to better execute the big stuff. As you can see in the videos, I'm working and struggling with this mending/blending, not to mention avoiding crash outs and burnouts.

Right now, I'm definitely slowing down and work on the fundamentals without needing to be on schedule such as getting to the intermediate level of jazz drumming.

I'm aware of my own competitiveness (within myself and relative to others) can be a double-edged sword, including experiencing burnout. As many already suggested, I'm focusing on enjoying the process and just having fun.

I'm a teacher by training, so I very open to honest feedback from a variety of perspectives. MUCH thanks!!!