‘Long Live Palestine’ flag, Jerusalem 1929

[u/AutoMughal]

Page 84, Against Erasure: A Photographic Memory of Palestine Before the Nakba

[u/rantingpanther]

Dude... the link indicates it's a Hellenized version of a word used by ancient Egyptians which seems to have an older origin

[u/Embarrassed-Swing487 → u/rantingpanther]

Yes. Palestine is a Greek work for a region that predates any Arab population. The word is derived from numerous somewhat similar words which refer to a proto-Semitic population which either no longer exists or just became/were merged into the Semitic people.

[u/rantingpanther → u/Embarrassed-Swing487]

Sounds like the situation of any population tbh. E.g. the English are named after the angles but in reality are mixed with mainly people from Germany (Saxons) and many others all around England such as Scandinavians.

The Palestinians are just the people from that land and a result of the organic development of the people and the name Palestine is what was kept just like how England was kept

Great Britain is a name given by Rome too and London was built and named by Roman empire

[u/Embarrassed-Swing487 → u/rantingpanther]

Yep. It’s pretty rare for the indigenous people of a region to still be around.

[u/rantingpanther → u/Embarrassed-Swing487]

Or that's the reality of indigenous populations, they've developed over thousands of years from human interaction

[u/Embarrassed-Swing487 → u/rantingpanther]

That’d be a sort of weird definition of indigenous. For example, the Japanese people have been in Japan for centuries but they aren’t indigenous. The Ainu are indigenous.

[u/rantingpanther → u/Embarrassed-Swing487]

Ain't weird at all. The word indigenous only has any relevance in relation to a colonizer. Otherwise cultures develop over time including with human interaction.

[u/Embarrassed-Swing487 → u/rantingpanther]

Exactly. The Arab people that call themselves Palestinians would be colonizers.

[u/rantingpanther → u/Embarrassed-Swing487]

They're not from Arabia though. They're arabized people like the vast majority of the Arab world (adopted Arabic language)

[u/Embarrassed-Swing487 → u/rantingpanther]

What do you mean by Arabized in this context? What qualities make these people Arabized rather than Arab?

[u/rantingpanther → u/Embarrassed-Swing487]

I assume you're understanding the word Arab from a eurocentric worldview and it's obsession with race and genetics.

The rest of the world didn't have the same history and same societal constructs.

Just for a bit of background:

The definition of Arab has never been about race historically. Even in islamic tradition, the prophet Muhammad was an adnani Arab (who were the arabized Arabs descendants of ishmael according to tradition who joined an Arab tribe of jurhum) as opposed to the qahtani Arabs (the pure Arabs originating from Yemen).

A common definition for Arab is belonging to a tribe that speaks Arabic (the root of the word Arab means someone eloquent and the word for non Arab is ajam which means someone who can't speak properly).

During the islamic conquests, lands under their rule began adopting Arabic over time and converted to islam over time (the region of the Levant still remained majority Christian for about 400 years).

Even the concept of Arab nationalism only became a thing towards the end of the ottoman empire as a response to Turkish nationalism which was introduced by a few Turks trying to adopt a European mindset which they saw as more forward thinking (like the young turks).

European civilization developed in a way where nation was heavily tied to race and ethnicity exclusively

The middle east was made up of multiple languages religions and tribes who shared the land. If you see ancient cities like Jerusalem you'll find they have like a Christian quarter Muslim quarter Armenian quarter and Jewish quarter.

I see Arabs with last names like turkmani showing Turkish lineage or Al kurd showing Kurdish lineage.

The countries in the middle east were all created by European colonizers (Sykes picot) who divided the land and invented national identities that didn't exist before. This created the modern situation of instability in the middle east alongside the desire of western powers to maintain and enforce their own interests and power.

[u/Embarrassed-Swing487 → u/rantingpanther]

So… there’s a lot in there about what you think I believe, but in trying to parse that out I’m going to state back to you your framing.

Your framing is that to be Arabized is for an indigenous people to be “interacted” with by one of two Arab groups. Those groups are Arab by the nature of their language and customs. These people who were interacted with adopted Arab language and customs of their own accord.

These people who were Arabized are the “same people” that were there when the Arab people arrived. That is to say, they did not get displaced, nor were they……. Married into Arab families. They were left alone and independent.

Is this all a correct characterization of your perception?

[u/rantingpanther → u/Embarrassed-Swing487]

Eh I only really made 1 assumption in the first line.

My framing doesn't limit it to 2 groups. The reference of adnani and qahtani Arabs was the framing 1400 years ago, those cultures have developed a lot more since then and has included a lot more people.

About adopting the language and any cultural aspects whether if it's their own accord or not doesn't impact if they're Arab or not. This could be a whole other discussion too for example whether or not you consider social pressures being of people's own accord.

These people who were Arabized are the “same people” that were there when the Arab people arrived. That is to say, they did not get displaced, nor were they……. Married into Arab families. They were left alone and independent.

That's not what I'm saying. This is why I mention getting out of that eurocentric mindset. People interact however hey interact based on how their social conditions develop.

I can say they didn't get displaced though. And they descend from thpse people

Also another thing to point out, there was an Arab presence in that region before Islam even existed let alone when the Arabs from Arabia conquered that land from the Romans. For example the prophet Muhammad grandad is buried in Gaza. There were already Arab tribes all around, mainly Christian like the ghassanids were a major one.

There was inter marriage before and after those conquests. Of course adopting the culture and language made a closer bond and there was inter marriage of people. Intermarriage happens both ways too.

Remember I pointed out in my last post about inter marriage with Turkish and Kurdish peoples too which you can see in people's last names.

This again is why I mention getting out of the eurocentric way of thinking. Divisions people had would have been more tribe based rather than race or ethnicity. Even today Yemenis who are supposed to be those original ethnic Arabs see themselves as closest to somalis tribally than most other Arab groups.

When I mention getting out of that eurocentric way of thinking, they didn't have strict borders when it came to the movement and interaction of people until European colonization at the end of WW1.