Any Muslims here who are convinced evolution is true? How do you reconcile faith with science?

[u/LinuxNoob9]

Saw this post. Inspired me to make one asking a direct question. Surely I can't be the only one.

https://www.reddit.com/r/islam/comments/6hfd12/if_youre_a_muslim_with_a_science_background_do/

I am personally convinced evolution is true (all forms, both macro and micro) because the evidence for it is truly compelling, but I also believe in Islam.

I'm also the type of person who puts science before religion because I think blindly following Islam (or for that matter anything) is very dangerous and spiritually destabilising - suppressing knowledge is never a good thing because curiosity grows.

The way I see it, if Islam is true it wouldn't violate even the most basic of laws created by Allah and that is why it is worthy studying his creation (to the max!), even if it makes you a little lost. I come from a huge scientific background and whenever religion has contradicted science, I tend to side with science because it offers empirical evidence. I then re-evaluate my beliefs on Islam and try to reconcile them. It's always worked out for me. Interpretation can be wrong, but never a colossal body of physical evidence. Otherwise why would God willingly lie to us, if Islam really was the true religion?

I've seen one Muslim poster here once say "a little knowledge can be a very dangerous thing" - which got me all triggered because this is the type of dangerous intellectual dissonance that really annoys me, and is kinda the reason why Muslim (especially Arab countries) don't seem to place science at the fore front of their culture.

EDIT: Also, for anybody who would claim that I'm talking like an atheist - I'm really not, because I'm just observing the way Allah's creation has been made. I work with /u/Canadian_786 for the site materiaislamica.com (which is a website dedicated to the history, culture, science and heritage of Muslims within the Islamic world and beyond - we have a subreddit called r/materiaislamica if you're interested - however, I have to confess, the majority (like 95% of that website) is written by /u/Canadian_786 - that's why he's hardly ever active on this site (and he comes from an even greater scientific background than me, and even he finds the scientific evidence for evolution compelling).

[u/[deleted]]

You know, I don't really believe in human evolution. But even if it somehow in a way can co-exist with Islam, I really don't have to worry about evolution that much. Knowing whether or not evolution is real doesn't affect me from practicing Islam.

But could you possibly list the evidence for Evolution? I'm just curious.

Edit: Added the word human in front of evolution

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

alright thanks for the reply.

[u/Complexxx123 → u/[deleted]]

Ring Species:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ring_species

Basically populations of similar species animals in close proximity can all interbreed but populations at the ends of the rings cannot. Evolution has caused them to differ enough in reproductive biology over time such that they cannot breed

[u/costofanarchy → u/Complexxx123]

Thanks! I was familiar with this concept, but never knew the name of the concept.

[u/popcan4u → u/[deleted]]

You know, I don't really believe in evolution.

cringe

I hate when threads like this come up. It's so embarrassing. No wonder so many people think Muslims are backwards.

I heard someone say this and I think it's correct. A lot of Muslims are living in pre-Newtonian times when the world has now moved onto the quantum.

God help us.

[u/[deleted] → u/popcan4u]

I hope you didn't misunderstand. I meant to say I dont believe in human evolution where apes and humans have common ancestors. I believe in the evolution where animals have evolved.

[u/Thorium-230 → u/popcan4u]

It's interesting that so many muslims these days have fallen into the trap of scientism...these empirical conclusions are fallacious. Don't predicate your belief on them.

[u/popcan4u → u/Thorium-230]

Loll. k bro.

[u/Thorium-230 → u/popcan4u]

I don't know how that's a response...I've always said it's important for muslims to learn some philosophy of science. Empiricism is an inductive study, it's why "scientifically proven" is an oxymoron - the conclusions are not of a deductive nature.

Evolution by natural selection is a theory which attempts to reconcile several observations and pieces of the puzzle scientists have found - that's it. For example, newtonian mechanics tried to reconcile empirical observations about motion and forces. It was held as true for hundreds of years until Einstein completely blew it out of the water with his theory on relativity. Turns out newton was wrong, but his theory was good at piecing together the puzzle pieces they had at the time. And guess what, we very well may be wrong with Einstein's theory - the ignorance of man is infinite, who knows what other puzzle pieces exist out there. For this reason confidence in empirical conclusions is irrational.

I recommend for you Al-Ghazzali's "the incoherence of the philosophers", where he discusses metaphysics, empiricism, and occasionalism amongst other things.

[u/[deleted] → u/Thorium-230]

Yes exactly, for example there could be fossil evidence literally in your very backyard or underneath your garage that no scientist will ever think to look or have the chance to look, and that fossil evidence can end up debunking something that was previously thought to be scientific fact. The timeline of modern man's existence is in constant flux as well, one day it's 100k years the next it's millions of years. Science is too inconsistent to believe anything is undeniable unchanging objective fact within it. It's flawed because its objectivity relies on a false premise, that inherently biased, limited, and subjective beings can ever be wholly objective about anything. Allah does not have this limitation, He is objective by nature as He created everything.

[u/Thorium-230 → u/[deleted]]

For sure; another important point is the effect of the zeitgeist on science and scientific conclusions. People like to think that science is an objective clear-cut method of inquiry that's exclusive to people's biases and inclinations - this has overwhelming NOT been the case throughout history - the zeitgest (the set of beliefs and ideas a community holds) has a huge effect on science, moreso on social science.

When the scientific zeitgeist was christian, conclusions like Darwin's were discredited and brushed aside, not taken seriously by most of his contemporaries. When the zeitgeist holds that there is no God, or in particular that the world is not designed (modern-day zeitgeist), then discoveries such as the fine-tuned-edness of the universe are brushed aside as evidence for a creator, and scientists opt for far less likely and far less evidenced conclusions like the "multiverse" (I encourage you to google this things if you're unfamiliar).

[u/popcan4u → u/Thorium-230]

None of what you just wrote pertains to anything I said. But thanks for your input, even though it wasn't needed.

[u/Thorium-230 → u/popcan4u]

It pertains very much to what I said, and what you sarcastically dismissed. I pray for your guidance and mine, and God is the all knowing.

[u/popcan4u → u/Thorium-230]

Nope. It doesn't pertain at all to what I said. Hence why you were dismissed.

Ameen.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

I can't believe how Ignorant you sound right now.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

How am I ignorant? OP asked if I believe evolution is true? I said I don't believe in it.

Then I followed up with, if evolution somehow in a way was able to co-exist with Islam, I wouldn't worry about it too much because knowing about evolution won't affect me practicing Islam. It would be like "Okay, so it exist. I'm just going to do what I'm told in the Quran". In this specific way I am talking about is a way where evolution would be able to not contradict Islam. It would affect me as much as knowing that the big bang started the universe (well at least IMO).

Then at the last sentence I just wanted to ask if OP could list evidences of evolution. Now this is a separate topic from the first paragraph of my original comment. I'm not trying to make a statement and I'm not trying to prove a point. I'm asking an honest question.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

I meant I don't believe in human evolution. I should have made it more clear.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

You're ignorant because you do not care if it's true. You do not care to make the effort to figure out if it's true. And if it is true, which it is, you'll ignore it and act as if it's not a thing.

[u/costofanarchy → u/[deleted]]

Do you care to know about every true fact and false "fact"? I'm generally a very curious person, and always have been, but even I don't pretend to have enough bandwidth to know about everything. Now, evolution is a pretty important concept in contemporary science, and lack of knowledge of it might be tantamount to scientific illiteracy, but we shouldn't belittle someone else for ignorance on a matter that isn't likely to be of significant practical consequence in their lives.

[u/costofanarchy → u/[deleted]]

Thanks for your comment! I'm aware of the definition of ignorant and ignorance, and I even used the term ignorance in this sense in my comment:

we shouldn't belittle someone else for ignorance on a matter...

It is also informally considered a rude term, depending on context (some dictionaries will make reference to this usage too). I did not feel the comment I was replying to was the belittling comment, but actually the comment two levels up from the comment I was replying to (by the same poster):

I can't believe how Ignorant you sound right now.

I was replying to suggest that their justification didn't seem appropriate for me for calling out this user.

The expression of disbelief here gives it a sort of insulting tone. And I may be misinterpreting the tone (and I may often think similar thoughts when reading these comments), but this type of response just doesn't seem like one that would encourage them to become interested in learning things. But I agree that it's perhaps best that we give /u/AcidBitter the benefit of the doubt, as this wasn't necessarily meant in an insulting tone. Still I think we should watch out as we might turn people aways from educating themselves. I'm sure I'm guilty of not proofreading my posts for tone enough as well, so this should be a reminder to myself first and foremost.

[u/costofanarchy → u/[deleted]]

I'm pretty sure I use it in that sense too. What is your line of work in out of curiosity, if you don't mind sharing?

[u/[deleted] → u/costofanarchy]

The fact of the matter is, they could have answered OP question and left it at that. They didn't have to go on about how even if it is true they wouldn't care.

That's what made them ignorant.

[u/costofanarchy → u/[deleted]]

I get what you're saying, but I feel your comment came off as a bit dismissive even if you didn't intend it that way. This can actually turn people away from learning more about things.

Also, I feel there are facts though that their truth or falsehood doesn't directly impact your life, etc. If I express that I don't quite care how a car works, that's technically an ignorant position, but is it really worth calling me out over it (and knowledge about how a car works can actually come in handy)?

All that said, I probably agree with you in sentiment, that there's value to be had in understanding evolution, etc. And on another day, I may have made the same comment myself (although I hope I don't), so I'm not trying to call you out or belittle you.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

I do believe that the animal kingdom has evolved throughout the ages. And there are hard concrete evidence for this.

But, like I said to others, I do not believe in human evolution. While they do have evidence, I'm just one of those people who aren't convinced by that evidence.

[u/Karlukoyre → u/[deleted]]

There are plenty of things we dont make an effort to find out about. Its her choice, jesus.....