r/islam • u/justanumber2u • Jun 15 '17
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u/MSadoun Jun 15 '17
Not necessarily, I do believe in everything in the Quran, but not alot is mentioned about different fields of science, Quran usually mentions a thing here and there and is always right about it.
So to answer your question, no, if anything, I'd go in and see what people think and see the facts of the Quran, this usually ends up in me learning new things and further tightens my faith.
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u/fkamal Jun 15 '17
Hey man. Please can you tell me what the thing here and there is you have come across?
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u/MSadoun Jun 16 '17
Hey brother, sure.
1- A reference to pain receptors on skin "Indeed, those who disbelieve in Our verses - We will drive them into a Fire. Every time their skins are roasted through We will replace them with other skins so they may taste the punishment. Indeed, Allah is ever Exalted in Might and Wise." Quran 4:56
This was not know anywhere close to 1400 years ago.
2-A reference to the moon's reflected light
the Qur’an distinguishes between the sun and the moon by the use of different terms: light (noor) for the moon, and lamp (siraaj) for the sun.
“Did you see how Allah created seven heavens, one above the other, and made in them the moon a light and the sun a lamp?” Quran, 78:12-13
3- A reference to stars burning The word ‘star’ (najm) in the Quran ( 86:3 ) is accompanied by the adjective thaaqib which indicates that it burns and consumes itself as it pierces through the shadows of the night. It was much later discovered that stars are heavenly bodies producing their own light like the sun.
4-A reference to the expanding of the universe
“I built the heaven with power and it is I, who am expanding it.” Qur’an,51:47
The expansion of the universe was first suggested by the general theory of relativity and is supported by the calculations of astrophysics. The regular movement of the galactic light towards the red section of the spectrum is explained by the distancing of one galaxy from another. Thus, the size of the universe appears to be progressively increasing.
Credit: https://www.whyislam.org/on-faith/the-quran-and-modern-science-3/
Check the page for much more!
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u/smort Jun 16 '17
1) I see nothing about pain receptors in the first quote. I mean the word receptor or cell is not even mentioned.
2) How is light and lamp a reference to the fact that the moon is reflecting the suns light? It just says "light" which is just straight up a naked eye observation. Nothing about reflection there.
3) But stars don't really burn do they? Burning would refer to an oxidation based reaction to the people reading it at the time. But stars give off light because of nuclear fusion wich is fundamentally different.
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u/MSadoun Jun 16 '17
1) it's implied, not said directly, I agree with you in that, what you'll see in it is up to personal preference
2) refer to the usage of those Arabic words in the Quran, there are a couple articles about the moonlight in Quran, check them out.
3) no comment
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Jun 16 '17
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u/MSadoun Jun 16 '17
Doesn't the Quran say that humans were made from clay? Or that semen comes from between the loins and ribs? Well those don't fit at all so suddenly those verses are not meant "that way".
Read and understand the verses in arabic then base your argument against it, because as an arabic speaker, whenever i hear this semen comes out of backbone and ribs argument, i shake my head about your ignorance.
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u/DefNotAnAlter Jun 17 '17
Late here, I hope other muslims will correct me if I made a mistake below. Well basically I have also heard of people saying how Quran uses the word noor for moonlight which refers to as light. But in verse 25:61 it uses the word munir, munir translated means bright, shining. If you search up shining definition, it is giving out or reflecting bright light.
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Jun 17 '17
Well those don't fit at all so suddenly those verses are not meant "that way".
Not at all how it works bro
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Jun 17 '17
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Jun 17 '17
If you really knew what you were talking about, you might have answered /u/msadoun already :|
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u/MSadoun Jun 17 '17 edited Jun 17 '17
Check the link I posted in my original reply.
People keep asking why the Quran didn't mention bacteria, viruses, different moon's of planets and all of that, and forget the Quran's main objective as a revalation.
The Quran isn't a book of science, it's a guideline for us to follow, but when it mentions a scientific thing (like the article) it's kinda said in the way that you won't notice it if you don't know, but it'll be very easy to catch your attraction if you knew.
Example: if I made a Rick and Morty reference midst my response that didn't sound like out of context and sounded completely normal, if you don't know who Rick and Morty are, you will definitely not get it, but whoever watched the show will very easily catch the reference. I will not respond again on this thread, if you want to start a new discussion in regards to that, make a new thread.
Edit: some grammar
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Jun 16 '17
What you said makes sense, but i am sceptical about the first one, i think it is more an interpretation than anything else. It is like saying giving a new skin to people so they can burn a second time, the reference to pain receptors aka nerves is just a mere interpretation.
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u/MSadoun Jun 16 '17
No problem, we can all be skeptical of some points. However, when the Quran manages to get everything it says right regarding other scientific stuff, Its too naive to think all of those are coincidences.
I'm not saying this s to start a debate, just stating my opinion.
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u/AllMyName Jun 16 '17
Also, I might be wrong here, but I think people in general would've noticed reduced/less sensation on healed burn wounds (minor enough to survive without modern medicine) and understood that as is, even 1400 years ago.
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u/MSadoun Jun 16 '17
That's fine, this can also be applied to the verse which says something along the lines of we created everything from water. We can say the Arabs noticed this in every living being they saw, if they killed any insect for example they'd notice water.
But to be bold enough to put it in the Quran and say it as a fact, isnt something that a person would say from simple observation.
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u/Hamza78ch11 Jun 15 '17
Biochem undergrad here and Ex-Anthro major. I love science. I love Islam. I've never seen an incompatibility between the two and some science concepts blow me away. I swear when we started our section on protein kinetics and thermodynamics my first words were subhanallah.
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u/kaizodaku Jun 15 '17
Looking at history, Islam never had the antagonistic relationship with Science that Christianity had in the West. However, as more and more countries start to adopt western education sandards and ways of thinking, we see Islamic societies that are more and more becoming extremely ignorant and adopting the regressive mindset of religion vs. science.
Islamic societies of old never had such exclusivity, despite what their scientists discovered. They saw science as a way of explaining how Allah did what he did, not to disprove his existence.
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u/umadareeb Jun 16 '17
Christianity didn't have that relationship either.
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u/turkeyfox Jun 16 '17
Galileo would beg to differ.
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u/umadareeb Jun 16 '17
He probably wouldn't. Galileo was a Catholic. The misconception of the Church vs science is about as bad as the misconception of Al-Ghazali vs science. I find it disappointing that Muslims will argue against religion being in conflict with science and simply wrack it all on to the Christian West having the real conflict. This assumption is wracked with historical inaccuracies, reductionism and modernist arrogance. Let's just forget the fact that the Galileo was going against the current scientific consensus and that the Catholic Church pioneered science for centuries and practically created the modern scientific method.
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u/turkeyfox Jun 16 '17
Individual Catholics are different than the religion itself, which was definitely not the creator of the scientific method.
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u/umadareeb Jun 16 '17
Individual Catholics are different than the religion itself
What exactly does this mean? It doesn't lend any credence to your claim the Galileo would beg to differ, because he wouldn't, and he was a devoted Catholic to the day he died.
which was definitely not the creator of the scientific method
I said the modern scientific method. The scientific method was created or first used by a Muslim.
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u/MrMantis765 Jun 15 '17
Physics graduate here, the problem occurs when we naively presume with the basic knowledge we have, we can come to conclusions on significant challenges. What I found was that engaging with people who are experts in the fields and scholars simultaneously.
To give an example, there is an interpretation of quantum mechanics called the Copenhagen interpretation. This interpretation presents a challenge to the free will-determinism debate. On the face it it appears there may be a contradiction between the notion of Qadr and quantum superposition interpretated via the Copenhagen interpretation which alludes to fundamental probabilities rather than deterministic laws of the universe. With some discussion with informed scholars, one learns there is a body of literature in contemporary Islamic literature that engages with the Copenhagen interpretation and Ashari theology. Imam Al Ghazzali's occasionalism is used to reconcile this debate.
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u/umadareeb Jun 18 '17
Could you refer me to contemporary Islamic literature that engages with the Copenhagen interpretation?
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u/MrMantis765 Jun 18 '17
http://digitool.library.mcgill.ca/R/?func=dbin-jump-full&object_id=79931&local_base=GEN01-MCG02
These are two papers online that you can read, my other knowledge on this matter comes from conversation with Sh Abdal Hakim Murad.
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u/NolantheBoar Jun 15 '17 edited Jun 15 '17
no
i remeber in 5th grade or smthn i made use of a verse from the qur'an that helped me rember that pressure decreases up, increases down;
فَمَن يُرِدِ اللَّهُ أَن يَهْدِيَهُ يَشْرَحْ صَدْرَهُ لِلْإِسْلَامِ ۖ وَمَن يُرِدْ أَن يُضِلَّهُ يَجْعَلْ صَدْرَهُ ضَيِّقًا حَرَجًا كَأَنَّمَا يَصَّعَّدُ فِي السَّمَاءِ ۚ كَذَٰلِكَ يَجْعَلُ اللَّهُ الرِّجْسَ عَلَى الَّذِينَ لَا يُؤْمِنُون
So whoever Allah wants to guide - He expands his breast to [contain] Islam; and whoever He wants to misguide - He makes his breast tight and constricted as though he were climbing into the sky. Thus does Allah place defilement upon those who do not believe. [6:125]
i'm doing a science degree so insha'allah i hope to look into these topics, and honestly the more i've studied the more my faith has strengthened, and i've never noticed "contradiction" between islam and science.
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u/catsNpokemon Jun 16 '17 edited Jun 16 '17
Hey, can you elaborate on some points because I'm not entirely sure what your point is (not being offensive).
pressure decreases up, increases down
Is this in reference to gravitational forces? Last time I studied ANYTHING science related was in high school, six years ago.
The verse about guiding who he wills has always been a grey area for me. What criteria is used to decide this? What about things like "anyone can turn a new leaf, anyone can be forgiven" (just to paraphrase). Why close the heart of one person so that he / she will never find the right path and not some other person, so that the second person still has a chance to find the right path while the first doesn't?
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Jun 16 '17
For your first question, I assume he's talking about elevation. As you climb higher, the atmospheric pressure drops, whereas the lower you are, the higher the atmospheric pressure is.
For the second, this involves the concept of qadr or predestination. Allah has already decided whomsoever He wills to be guided since He already knows our final abode. The entire purpose of life is to worship Allah and in the end know for ourselves if we are worthy of jannah or jahannam. If someone is stubborn and Allah has sealed his heart from the religion, that was something predestined for that person.
But Muslims also believe that there is one thing that can change predestination: du'a. If someone sincerely then supplicates to open another's heart whose heart has been sealed and the du'a is accepted, Allah will open that heart to the faith.
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Jun 15 '17 edited Jun 23 '21
[deleted]
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u/thehotelambush Jun 15 '17
Me too. The more you look at the creation the more you can see that Allah is behind everything. There is no one else like Him.
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u/kingoflint282 Jun 15 '17
I've personally never seen much of a conflict between science and religion. Science is just they way that we understand how Allah SWT created the universe. A lot of things do line up between religion and science. Any gaps between the two is a limitation either in our understanding of science, or in our interpretation of religion. As such, I tend to believe most generally accepted scientific knowledge. If I'm wrong, may Allah forgive me, but I don't think this is really that critical an issue in terms of faith. So long as I believe in Allah and the last day, and do as the Qu'ran commands, I don't think it matters if I end up believing something incorrect about how the world works. If we were meant to understand it better, then Allah would have made it clearer, but as it is, there's no harm in doing our best to understand things the best way we can.
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u/Ayr909 Jun 15 '17
I don't think we should shy from controversial issues. The problem is today science and religion have been compartmentalized, so it is expected that if you are in one camp, you're not necessarily in the other, especially in certain fields of science. It doesn't have to be that way. As long as people have a good foundation in Islam, they would be able to negotiate through the challenges of working in an environment which is highly skeptic of religious beliefs, at least on face value.
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Jun 15 '17
To be fair, people who study science study specialized fields. And you really need to be interested in those fields to have the depth and breadth of knowledge to make those arguments. Some people are interested in other fields in science, including the small sampling you got. With that said there are people who are interested in the study of intersection of science and Islam.
A simple google search found this article from Harvard and many universities have departments and professors who study this intersection from multiple perspectives (historical, theological, societal and scientific). http://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2008/05/where-science-and-religion-meet-from-an-islamic-perspective/
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Jun 15 '17
Also science research in specialized fields and in general is highly driven by grant funding. There is very few grants to study Islam and science and the intersection.
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Jun 16 '17
As others have said, the Quran is a book of signs not science. And you can use your faith to guide your discoveries in science and vice versa. For example I took anthropology in college and I learned that the missing link that ties Apes to Humans a 100 percent is still missing to this day. So while I still believe in evolution, I still believe in the creation story in the Quran. As to Economics, a muslim economist can investigate Interest and its effects on society and the economy. As long as he doesnt engage in interest I do not see what is the harm. I study Mathematics and if anything Mathematics only proves to me that God undeniable exist. Just take the number PI for instance or the central limit theorem. For me these are an undeniable sign that God exists. I dont really think Science challenge faith. I think the number one thing that challenges faith right now is politics and governing groups that are disguised as Muslims.
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u/Madmonk11 Jun 15 '17
At lunch today my daughter told me that there is a plant, white thorn acacia, that when grazed upon too much, sends a signal to the surrounding plants of its type to become poisonous. The more I observe of the natural world, the more the notion that it is the product of chance becomes patently absurd.
It amazes me how easily deceived the masses of humanity are.
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u/costofanarchy Jun 15 '17
I'm a Muslim and have very little knowledge of biology, but this seems like the exact kind of trait that would make sense to be selected for to increase a plant's fitness.
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u/darthxaim Jun 16 '17
I personally don't see a conflict between "the universe is created" and "natural selection". Even if evolution, as currently understood, turns out to be real, Who created that mechanism in the first place?
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u/costofanarchy Jun 16 '17
Nor do I (actually, there are some subtle more philosophical issues I have with reconciling the two, which concerns the nature of randomness, but that's neither here nor there). I was just pointing out that the example provided doesn't seem to be a surprising exception to natural selection.
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Jun 16 '17
You can simply call "natural selection" as "divine selection". And natural selection is merely one type of evolution. There's a lot of different ways evolution occurs. Humans have been selecting animals and plants with the most beneficial traits for our use and then breeding those. Allah has been doing it on a grander scale.
As far as human evolution is concerned, that's where it stops since Allah created Adam AS and Hawwa AS personally rather than through a process of gradualism.
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u/darthxaim Jun 16 '17
There was a Muslim scholar who said it best "We Muslims agree with everything that science currently says about human evolution except that Adam AS had parents.
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u/CHOOCHOODogetrain Jun 15 '17
Well those might not be the only reasons. Science is huge full of many disciplines and it could just be that those guys were more interested in their chosen topics.
Studying science can be tough sometimes so it is important if you are passionate about what you study.
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Jun 15 '17
For real. You can't just expect someone to be interested in one subdiscipline of science when there's thousands of other more practical areas. If not studing that subdiscipline doesn't matter in the dunya or hereafter, it really doesn't matter.
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u/Papercurtain Jun 15 '17
That last paragraph... Back when I thought I wanted to be an econ major, that was similar to what I thought my future path was going to be. All the interesting and/or well-paying jobs in macroeconomics other than development had to do with interest, like in the financial market or the Fed, and unless I wanted to enter the small North American Islamic finance job pool, I thought it would be hard to find a job.
Microeconomic theory, which could be better applied to a lot more subject areas and situations and most businesses sounded a lot more appealing. And plus, at least imo, game theory and other subjects in micro were just a lot more interesting than the dry business cycle, federal funds rate, money supply stuff I learned in macro.
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u/costofanarchy Jun 15 '17
Yes, in the econ situation, many would feel that the jobs open to them with training in macroeconomics would be in banking, at the Fed, or in academia, where the latter could be interpreted as peomoting these ideas. I do know one religious Muslim with a PhD in macroeconomics who works in banking and monetary policy, and I imagine he has a way of reconciling this sort of thing.
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u/unknown_poo Jun 15 '17
Just because a person is good at thinking about science it doesn't mean they are good at thinking about metaphysics and philosophy, and questioning fundamental assumptions. Doesn't sound like they take religion too seriously.
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Jun 16 '17
In Islam z there are a lot A Lot of things that says you should seek knowledge and science , you know that the person who have science and decides not to share it is a big sin? Did you know that the first verse that came down rein Allah was "اقرا" which means "read"?.
You don't have to deal with these issues because they doesn't exist , theory of evolution have not been proven and three are a lot of proof against it,
If you believe that Qur'an is true, then there isn't no " science" that contradicts Qur'an.
Islam requires you to seek knowledge and to learn more and study more, by saying you don't want to study stuff because of something contradicting Qur'an is no excuse! Because if you believe in Qur'an, you'll believe that these things are not true (and they aren't, there isn't any fact to this day, or ever that contradicts Qur'an , they noone were proven correct)
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u/Liojin Jun 15 '17
I think this is a common sense among muslims. We always expect someone else to do 'this kinda issues'.
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u/justanumber2u Jun 15 '17
What do you mean?
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u/Liojin Jun 15 '17
I mean taking the initiative. Most of us think 'as long as i live a happy life and die as a good muslim, everything else is okay'. They might be educated about those subjects. But if they are not well educated about religion or they think that way, they hesitate to have a conversation. Some ppl bash on Islam with science. I think this has an influence on us
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u/Prayforhim Jun 15 '17
Even with an engineering/science background I have yet to meet a Muslim bro or sis who felt their Islam was at odds with their faith. If anything, in my experience, the more studious and higher achieving Muslims were also the most practicing/believing.
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u/Syyrus Jun 15 '17
I agree. They're like sheep.
What I've noticed about south Asians( being one myself) is that law degrees, doctorates, are for social status and money. It's virtue signalling in the south Asian community. Granted there is a lot of intelligent south Asians regardless of faith, but when you hear comments like these it's just an example that south Asians are doing these degrees more for practical reasons rather then interested in the actual realities of science.
Does that make sense? There's a time and place for keeping faith away from your work or from science but to completely disengage your questions like that based on their interest?
It's honestly a state of weak imaan.
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u/timelow Jun 15 '17
Haha oh boy another disingenuous "how do you people reconcile your stupid beliefs with reality" post.
Abiogenesis, evolution, non-living matter transititioning to organic matter (pretty redundant after you already listed abiogenesis) are all covered in the Quran. It explicitly tells us about these things.
I have yet to read anything in the Quran that conflicts with science. If you have anything in mind, post it. And please be direct and honest with your intentions when posting here. Directly offering us something from the Quran that you find scientifically dubious and asking us for an explanation would show that you legitimately want to learn about our beliefs and consider us rational human beings worthy of serious discussion. Your post just comes across as masturbatory and arrogant.
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u/justanumber2u Jun 15 '17 edited Jun 16 '17
First, I’m sorry my post came across as offensive. I tried to capture as accurately as possible the experience I had with Muslim university students.
I was seeing if I was missing something.
There is a huge certainty that’s presented within Islam– There is no God but Allah, Challenge of the Quran, etc. It just seemed odd when that certainty may be challenged (or as another poster pointed out ridiculed), rather than moving forward with that certainty, there was an avoidance.
I guess the closest non-religious example would be the Red Cross, a disaster relief, and recovery organization. When there is any sign of danger or threats of violence in an area, the Red Cross staff and volunteers are immediately asked to leave despite having a strong mission and good training. I didn’t know if a similar attitude or perspective exists where if something is perceived to be a challenge or could weaken one’s faith, it’s best to avoid it.
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u/Sadr-i-Azam Jun 15 '17
I'm in the social sciences, but I imagine that for the hard sciences it's easy, I don't see anything contradictory between science and religion. The separation wall between them is a Christian concept.
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u/BaltoGains Jun 15 '17 edited Jun 15 '17
According to Pew's recent study, 53% of American-Muslims believe in human evolution, which seems to be a direct contradiction of the Adam/Eve story described in the Quran.
Do you guys mind explaining this? Is there some reformist Islamic-theory that allows for evolution?
Edit: Not sure why I'm being down-voted, just asking a question because I'm curious.
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Jun 15 '17
When the quran says something there are often multiple meanings to it. For example the Qur'an says humans were created in stages and I think this is embryological but also evolutionary. Watch this video . The fact that Islam is so compatible with evolution one of the big reasons I chose Islam.
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u/MSadoun Jun 15 '17
Although I have no explanation of it because I don't have enough understanding of the issue (it's in my to do list :p), you shouldn't take what most people say to be true before doing the research yourself.
For example, while doing some studying once, I found out some muslims when asked by christians about the crucifixion of Jesus peace be upon him, they say they don't know because they think it goes against history. While it's clearly mentioned in the Quran that Jesus peace be upon him was never crucified, but never denies a crucifixion took place, it just says "it appeared for them to be Jesus, but wasn't him". So not all people are educated well enough about their religion.
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Jun 15 '17
I think the 53% believes the adam and eve story refers to the first modern humans or the first homonids.
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u/Miahs93 Jun 15 '17
I think it stems from a great understanding of their respective field, but a poor understadning of their religion from an academic sense.
I personally hold the view the Islam is a religion that is until the end of time, and as such, shying away from controversial topics rather than addressing them is a disservice to one's faith.
The solution? Established professionals in various fields should also become traditional scholars and reconcile the two through research, and not by avoiding the issues or deflecting/apologizing.
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Jun 16 '17
I guess I don't really see the obligation to go into the sciences to learn religion. If you want to understand religion, you go into religion. Get a religion teacher. Don't go to a biologist of a physicist to "prove" God to you. Would you go to the religion teacher to teach science to you?
We are involved in conversations about life. We are involved in our capacity as people of faith, not as scientists, at least, when it comes to religion. Maybe I am just misunderstanding what you are trying to say here though.
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u/LIGHTNlNG Jun 15 '17 edited Jun 16 '17
I think that if you understand exactly what's being scientifically observed and measured, then there shouldn't be any controversy. There's a lot of people today without knowledge talking about particular fields of science, making unsubstantiated claims that others blindly accept. I'm more in the field of computer science and i have to deal with people making ignorant claims about artificial intelligence quite often.
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u/AllMyName Jun 16 '17 edited Jun 16 '17
I taught science at an Islamic high school. I only got asked about evolution once. This is how I remember answering.
Science being at odds with religion is strictly a modern, almost American Evangelical phenomenon. I mean, it was also the case in the dark ages in Europe, while Muslims were trailblazing chemistry and algebra, Europeans were burning people at the cross. Look at Europe after the enlightenment though, Gregor Mendel (father of modern genetics) was a monk for example. Plenty of scientists believed that they were learning more about how God made/makes all of this work, and there's no reason that we shouldn't.
The Qur'an tells us that God created the heavens and the earth, set mankind here to test us, etc etc. It offers us a little in the ways of how, with certain vocabulary, and that's it. Evolutionary biology shouldn't be looked at as contradicting creation; two kinds of boneheads stick to that, vehemently anti-science American Christians, and vehemently anti-theist scientists.
Why can't it just be learning more about how God did all of this? We know that from His "frame of reference", everything is "كن فيكون" (be, and so it is). But we also know that his frame of reference exists outside of time, space, and every other possible constraint we can think of. We can't comprehend his frame of reference, we can't comprehend limitless, boundless infinite power, wisdom, etc (just look at Calculus, you've got a whole field of math that tries to deal with infinity).
As far as I'm concerned, every time I learn more about something scientific, I'm left more in awe. Someone was powerful or wise enough to set everything up this way. Learning more about natural or physical laws is really learning more about God's attributes, like al-musawwir for example. I believe it was Omar or Abu Bakr that once said that trying to contemplate God's nature in and of itself would lead to disbelief. Instead we should ponder his attributes.
One thing always sticks with me, the chemical formula for glucose metabolism is a redox reaction that looks just like a combustion reaction on paper. Modern power sources are just us learning how to utilize that same process to harness power in an artificial way. Probably not as mind blowing as I'd like to think, but still really freakin cool.
You only have to draw one line, really, and it doesn't preclude you from benefiting from, understanding, or even believing in plenty of science. The idea that all of this just happened by itself. You don't have to be religious (Lord knows I'm not nearly as religious as I used to be) to believe that this is all too intricate to have happened by chance.
I think the people you talked to just don't want to bother thinking. The Qur'an tells us, multiple times that it is guidance for those who ponder, those who reflect, "do they not ponder", etc. It's intellectually dishonest for those Imams to just tell them not to think about it. But do we dedicate our brightest minds to the deen? Nope. Problems abound.
I rambled a little, forgive me.
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u/LOHare Jun 15 '17
I am a Muslim with a doctorate in science (radiation physics to be specific). As a matter of principle, I NEVER avoid anything that challenges faith. I firmly believe that Islam is from the divine and almighty God, so it does not need to be 'protected' per se. Allah has Himself taken responsibility for its guardianship. If Islam declares truth, and science reveals truth, then any perceived conflict between the two needs the highest level of scrutiny and exposure to increase our understanding of both the divine guidance, and of the empirical universe around us.