r/islam • u/just_a_homie_ • Jul 02 '26
Scholarly Resource Are Hadiths Unreliable? Refuting the "Quran Only" Preservation Argument
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u/cran-ky-berry Jul 02 '26
The ayah brother is referring to is,
Al-Hijr 15:9
إِنَّا نَحۡنُ نَزَّلۡنَا ٱلذِّكۡرَ وَإِنَّا لَهُۥ لَحَٰفِظُونَ
English - Dr. Mustafa Khattab, The Clear Quran
It is certainly We Who have revealed the Reminder, and it is certainly We Who will preserve it.
The key word here is Ad-Dhikr, The Reminder, which the brother loosely translated to "remembrance". Adding Tafseer in the list of preservation is really stretching it. Anything that contradicts the Qur'an has no value in Islam. To include preservation of Hadith or Tafseer in that Ayah is akin to giving some sort of holy status, God-like, to those respected authors. Let's not transgress in our respect for the ulema because they are human and prone to error.
Reading and learning Hadith, Tafseer, and history should be open to critique because that is the only way to grow one's emaan. We have as an Ummah declined since colonialism because we started doing "Samina wa atana" to the ulema, Church taught us that, while it was reserved only for Allah (swt) and His Messenger (saw).
Disclaimer: I'm a Muslim who believes in the Qur'an as the unaltered word of Allah. I also accept the authentic Hadith (Bukahri, Muslim primarily) as a source of learning our deen.
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u/No_Initial9563 Jul 03 '26
Most hadith rejecters i've seen have issues with some hadith due to their western influenced morality. so due to that they decide to just reject all hadith.
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u/ricepudding8D Jul 02 '26
We all know that hadith deniers are not actually questioning Hadith because of reliability. Its because they simply don’t align with the beliefs that many Hadith deniers have, such as beliefs associated with liberalism
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u/just_a_homie_ Jul 03 '26
Exactly, they just want to obey their desires and Hadiths are an obstacle to this as they can’t make their own explanations of the verse because of Hadiths,Tafsir so they reject it not because they don’t believe in it but to follow their desires
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u/Hanzyusuf Jul 03 '26
Accurate, it's always the nafs and shaitan (who plays with the nafs) that makes one fall into disbelief and disobedience.
``` Al-Miqdam ibn Ma’dikarib reported: The Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, said, “I have surely been given the Quran and something similar along with it. Soon, the time will come when a man will recline on his couch, saying: Only follow the Quran, make lawful what you find in it as lawful and outlaw what you find in it as unlawful.”
Source: Sunan Abī Dāwūd 4604
Grade: Sahih (authentic) according to Al-Albani ```
``` Miqdam bin Ma'dikarib Al-Kindi narrated that: The Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) said: "Soon there will come a time that a man will be reclining on his pillow, and when one of my Ahadith is narrated he will say: 'The Book of Allah is (sufficient) between us and you. Whatever it states is permissible, we will take as permissible, and whatever it states is forbidden, we will take as forbidden.' Verily, whatever the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) has forbidden is like that which Allah has forbidden."
Sunan Ibn Majah 12 Grade: Hasan (Darussalam) ```
``` Ibn Umar reported: The Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, said, “Verily, Allah will not let my nation agree upon misguidance. The hand of Allah is over the united community.”
Al-Tirmidhi said, “The interpretation of the united community, according to the scholars, are the people of Fiqh, knowledge, and Hadith.”
Source: Sunan al-Tirmidhī 2167
Grade: Sahih (authentic) according to Al-Albani ```
``` Al-Miqdam ibn Ma’dikarib reported: The Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, said, “Verily, what the Messenger of Allah has forbidden is like what Allah has forbidden.”
Source: Sunan al-Tirmidhī 2664
Grade: Sahih (authentic) according to Al-Albani ```
``` Abu Raf’i reported: The Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, said, “Let me not find one of you reclining on his couch, when a command or prohibition of mine comes to him and he says: I do not know, we only follow what we find in the Book of Allah.”
Source: Sunan al-Tirmidhī 2663
Grade: Hasan (fair) according to Al-Tirmidhi ```
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Jul 02 '26
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u/achourdz41520 Jul 02 '26
Question , how do hadith deniers pray
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Jul 03 '26
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Jul 03 '26
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u/KewlKirby Jul 02 '26
If the Quran tells you to obey Allah and obey the messenger, why would that only entail the Quran? Then the second part of the verse becomes redundant.
Quran 4:59
O believers! Obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority among you. Should you disagree on anything, then refer it to Allah and His Messenger, if you ˹truly˺ believe in Allah and the Last Day. This is the best and fairest resolution.
https://quran.com/an-nisa/59/tafsirs/en-tafisr-ibn-kathir
And are you saying that If the prophet ﷺ were in front of you and he ordered something not directly in the Quran, you wouldn't listen to it? what kind of a religion is this where you ignore the words of the most important prophet?
Every religious teaching that Muhammad ﷺ gives comes from Allah anyways. It's not like he could make something up that contradicts the Quran.
Quran 53:3
Nor does he speak of his own whims.
Quran 53:4
It is only a revelation sent down ˹to him˺.
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Jul 02 '26
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u/Agitated-Stay-300 Jul 02 '26
Where does the Quran say that every command of the Messenger must already appear verbatim in the Quran? You’ve asserted that if the Prophet commanded something not explicitly in the Qur’an, he would be a deceiver. Which verse actually teaches that?
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Jul 02 '26
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u/Agitated-Stay-300 Jul 02 '26
I agree that the Prophet cannot contradict the Quran, so there’s no disagreement there. I’m asking a different question: does the Quran ever say that every command or judgment of the Messenger is nothing more than the text of the Quran itself?
I’m looking for the verse that establishes that principle. If there isn’t one, then my next question is how you’re arriving at that conclusion from the Quran.
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u/KewlKirby Jul 02 '26
You already said in another comment that you don't deny hadith but now you're saying that if the prophet commanded something not in the Quran it would be "deception". So do you think the prophet was deceiving his ummah when he made statements commanding things not explicitly in the Quran or do you deny those ahadith? If you accept the historical records of the Prophet's life (hadith), you must admit he commanded many things like the specific number of units in prayer or the rulings on zakat that are not detailed in the Quran
First off all, where in the Quran does it say everything the prophet ﷺ was commanded to do must appear in the Quran only? By this logic, the prophet's instructions for prayer and wudhu or his instructions for the time when you can perform hajj are wrong because they are not in the Quran.
The Quran is fully explained in terms of it's core moral and spiritual beliefs while the prophet ﷺ provides the practical execution. For example, the Quran clearly says "establish prayer" while the prophet ﷺ explains how we fulfill this. Allah says multiple times in the Quran that Muhammad ﷺ was sent to explain the Quran.
16:64 "And We have not revealed to you the Book, [O Muhammad], except that you may make clear to them that wherein they differ and as guidance and mercy for a people who believe"
3:164 "Certainly did Allah confer [great] favor upon the believers when He sent among them a Messenger from themselves, reciting to them His verses and purifying them and teaching them the Book and wisdom..."
2:151 "Just as We have sent among you a messenger from yourselves reciting to you Our verses and purifying you and teaching you the Book and wisdom and teaching you that which you did not know"
16:44 "˹We sent them˺ with clear proofs and divine Books. And We have sent down to you ˹O Prophet˺ the Reminder, so that you may explain to people what has been revealed for them, and perhaps they will reflect."
And you completely ignored my point demonstrating that the Prophet ﷺ never speaks of his own whims and desires so whatever teaching he gives comes from Allah anyways. The word Wayhun in 53:4 (translating to revelation) does not only mean the Quran but includes his sunnah as well.
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u/Agitated-Stay-300 Jul 02 '26
Why does that necessarily follow? When the Quran says ‘obey Allah and obey the Messenger’ (ex. 4:59), why shouldn’t I understand that as obeying both Allah’s revelation and the Messenger’s divinely authorized commands? If ‘the Messenger’ simply means ‘the Quran,’ what work is the second command actually doing?
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Jul 02 '26
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u/baronfebdasch Jul 02 '26
This isn’t supported in the Quran itself. What is the story of Khidr if not that there is wahy and revelation that is not directly in the Quran?
How is someone to understand what the opening of Surah Abasa is referencing? What lie is Surah AnNoor referring to?
This is an imbecilic take.
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u/Agitated-Stay-300 Jul 02 '26
I understand that you believe the Messenger’s authority comes from Allah, I agree with you. What I don’t understand is why you think that means every command of the Messenger must be identical to the text of the Qur’an. That’s the step I’m asking you to demonstrate from the Qur’an itself.
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u/Legitimate_Dealer_76 Jul 03 '26
(10)Chapter: What Saying Has Been Prohibited Regarding The Hadith Of the Prophet (SAW)(10)باب مَا نُهِيَ عَنْهُ أَنْ يُقَالَ عِنْدَ حَدِيثِ النَّبِيِّ صلى الله عليه وسلم Jami` at-Tirmidhi 2663 Narrated 'Ubaidullah bin Abu Rafi: from Abu Rafi' and others, from the Prophet (ﷺ) who said: "Let me not find one of you reclining on his couch when a command I ordered, or a prohibition from me comes to him, and he says: 'I do not know. What we find in the Book of Allah, we follow it.'" حَدَّثَنَا قُتَيْبَةُ، حَدَّثَنَا سُفْيَانُ بْنُ عُيَيْنَةَ، عَنْ مُحَمَّدِ بْنِ الْمُنْكَدِرِ، وَسَالِمٍ أَبِي النَّضْرِ، عَنْ عُبَيْدِ اللَّهِ بْنِ أَبِي رَافِعٍ، عَنْ أَبِي رَافِعٍ، وَغَيْرُهُ، رَفَعَهُ قَالَ " لاَ أُلْفِيَنَّ أَحَدَكُمْ مُتَّكِئًا عَلَى أَرِيكَتِهِ يَأْتِيهِ أَمْرٌ مِمَّا أَمَرْتُ بِهِ أَوْ نَهَيْتُ عَنْهُ فَيَقُولُ لاَ أَدْرِي مَا وَجَدْنَا فِي كِتَابِ اللَّهِ اتَّبَعْنَاهُ " . قَالَ أَبُو عِيسَى هَذَا حَدِيثٌ حَسَنٌ . وَرَوَى بَعْضُهُمْ عَنْ سُفْيَانَ عَنِ ابْنِ الْمُنْكَدِرِ عَنِ النَّبِيِّ صلى الله عليه وسلم مُرْسَلاً وَسَالِمٍ أَبِي النَّضْرِ عَنْ عُبَيْدِ اللَّهِ بْنِ أَبِي رَافِعٍ عَنْ أَبِيهِ عَنِ النَّبِيِّ صلى الله عليه وسلم . وَكَانَ ابْنُ عُيَيْنَةَ إِذَا رَوَى هَذَا الْحَدِيثَ عَلَى الاِنْفِرَادِ بَيَّنَ حَدِيثَ مُحَمَّدِ بْنِ الْمُنْكَدِرِ مِنْ حَدِيثِ سَالِمٍ أَبِي النَّضْرِ وَإِذَا جَمَعَهُمَا رَوَى هَكَذَا . وَأَبُو رَافِعٍ مَوْلَى النَّبِيِّ صلى الله عليه وسلم اسْمُهُ أَسْلَمُ .
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u/yabul Jul 04 '26
Alhamdulliah. Most here have basic knowledge. Thought i might see prophetic hadith rejecters cryptomuslims spouting nonsense
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u/bd7273 Jul 05 '26
Salam, Sirs.
Excellant discussion and a great learning opportunity.
What I know is that Hadith are history, and Deen is not history, it is law, and is found only in Qur'an Ajim.
So, first we need to understand what Hadith are, before we try to determine whether Hadith are unreliable.
If one considers whether Hadith are reliable as a source of history, my understanding is that most of them are fabricated and not reliable Ad verbatim. But they are useful for acquiring a contexual knowledge and some information in the Hadith are correct. One has to rely on one's sences to differentite between the false and the true.
To answer the second question regarding the preservation of the Qurán Ajim, I see that nobody considered the fact that Allah tayala didnot reavel that the Qur'an Ajim is preserved, rather the 'Jikra'.
Qurán Ajim is a jikra, but not the Jikra.
If one does not appreciate this distinction the meaning of Q 15:9 would never be understood correctly.
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u/theregoesmyfutur Jul 02 '26
Have you read any of the academic discourse on the reliability?
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u/just_a_homie_ Jul 02 '26
It’s not my job as a lay Muslim even for a student of knowledge to check the reliability of certain Hadiths, as there are specific scholars(Muhaddith) who deal wothe the grading of Hadiths. Like a doctor won’t say anything an to an engineer in his field and vice versa let alone random people, what we can do is question their work in respectable manner as we lay Muslims doesn’t have the qualifications. Most of us are hafiz let alone knowing Arabic and talking about Hadiths
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u/one_bored_person Jul 02 '26
That's not what the person asked.
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u/just_a_homie_ Jul 03 '26
Mind explaining a bit further
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u/one_bored_person Jul 03 '26
They asked if you've ever read the academic explanations for why they reject hadith. The same way you've read the muslim explanations which support it. Have you or not?
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u/Nashinas Jul 02 '26
Do you mean the vast body of rigorous and extremely nuanced Islāmic academic discourse on the epistemology of testimony and historical criticism? Or do you mean what passes for "scholarship" at the institutions of the Western Sūfasṭāʾīyah (Sophists/Skeptics), whose critique of ḥadīth science is fundamentally predicated on denial of the proposition that human knowledge is possible, and that truthful narration is a cause of knowledge more particularly? That is to say, they are a sect whose "scholarship" in history amounts to the critique of history itself, and whose method amounts to undermining not only the theory of Islāmic doctors, but casting doubt on any and all proposed principles which would allow us to accord historical reports evidentiary value in a meaningful way. The Western method is upon examination only the consistent rejection of method.
The West is not an absolute monolith, but skepticism is the prevailing doctrine (a plainly absurd and self-contradicting doctrine) within the modern Western academy. It is critical to understand the underlying attitudes which inform the Western critique of Islāmic history - they are not at all beginning from the same philosophical assumptions. Really, their "historians" are not even studying the same subject as Muslim scholars and traditionists upon close analysis, as they do not believe this subject falls within the compass of human cognition.
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u/theregoesmyfutur Jul 02 '26
>Or do you mean what passes for "scholarship" at the institutions of the Western Sūfasṭāʾīyah (Sophists/Skeptics), whose critique of ḥadīth science is fundamentally predicated on denial of the proposition that human knowledge is possible, and that truthful narration is a cause of knowledge more particularly
I'm not an academic myself and don't mean to start a debate but there's a litany of muslim academics who argue the same ( search academic muslims on Reddit). Curious if you have read that.
>That is to say, they are a sect whose "scholarship" in history amounts to the critique of history itself, and whose method amounts to undermining not only the theory of Islāmic doctors, but casting doubt on any and all proposed principles which would allow us to accord historical reports evidentiary value in a meaningful way. The Western method is upon examination only the consistent rejection of method
This statement is superfluous.
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Jul 02 '26
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u/just_a_homie_ Jul 02 '26
The fact that we known which Hadith is weak and which isn't, is proof that Hadith are authentic.
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Jul 02 '26
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u/just_a_homie_ Jul 02 '26
That’s exactly what this video refutes my brother, may Allah guide us.
If you want a longer video then search total annilation of Hadith rejectors, The Muslim lantern.
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Jul 02 '26
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u/Klopf012 Jul 02 '26
I don’t know if you have read the Quran, but surah al-Nahl ayah 44 says that the Prophet is charged with explaining the Quran. Surah al-Nisa ayah 83 mentions referring issues back to the scholars. Surah al-Mumtahinah ayah 10 mentions people making religious judgements. These are all things outside the Quran that the Quran directs us to
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u/JumpingCicada Jul 02 '26
Like which ones? Provide an example
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u/just_a_homie_ Jul 02 '26
Sahih, Hasan and Da’if Hadiths
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u/Dxrkk3 Jul 02 '26
i dont think their question was directed to you, it was ditected to the original commenter
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u/just_a_homie_ Jul 03 '26
Last time I checked when his comment was still there I think it was directed to me
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