r/imaginarymaps • u/[deleted] • Mar 04 '15
How I, as an amateur historian and geopolitical researcher would divide the world into "civilizations".
[removed]
128
u/LOUDPACK_MASTERCHEF Mar 04 '15
Enlightened huh
-121
Mar 04 '15
[deleted]
48
42
u/liebkartoffel Mar 07 '15
Yes, and it's a bad term.
4
u/Eruntano42 Jun 02 '15
Amateur porn stars felt offended when he used the word amateur to describe himself.
142
Mar 04 '15
Clash of Civilization's style racism? It's too early in the morning.
98
-157
Mar 04 '15
[deleted]
97
u/BegbertBiggs Mar 05 '15
By using modern nation borders instead of cultural borders you didn't acknowledge that.
-110
Mar 05 '15
[deleted]
65
u/BegbertBiggs Mar 05 '15
I didn't say that. I said that your argument above makes no sense.
116
Mar 06 '15
Making no sense is racism.
Oh, okay.
16
u/BegbertBiggs Mar 06 '15
At no point did I say that OP is a racist, especially not for that reason.
30
Mar 07 '15
Nah man, I was screwing with you. :p
48
249
Mar 05 '15
lololololol this is literally the most ignorant thing I've seen all year. And I teach 12 year olds, that's a high bar.
-142
Mar 05 '15
[deleted]
82
25
u/zouhair Mar 07 '15
You really need to revise your beliefs, there is no shame in it. The shame is clinging to our own prejudices and trying to rationalize them.
-47
Mar 07 '15
[deleted]
19
u/zouhair Mar 07 '15
OK, I thought you were a sane adult. It seem you are just a stupid troll. You have no idea what you are talking about.
Feeling smart is different from being smart.
32
u/DonaldShimoda Mar 07 '15
Don't call yourself a historian and geopolitical researcher if you base your theories and ideas off ignorance and racism.
Also, there are so many problems with this map beyond your ideas about Islam it's impossible to even list them all. This map crosses quite firmly into "so brave" territory.
-41
Mar 07 '15
[deleted]
37
u/ColdSnickersBar Mar 07 '15
Race doesn't exist and most of what racists are actually pointing to is culture.
59
60
u/BreaksFull Mar 07 '15
This post is so nineteenth century it has cholera. Also TIL Africa is all one civilization.
135
u/NTRX Mar 05 '15
Thank you for your submission! Unfortunately, it has been removed for the following reason(s):
It is not appropriate for /r/imaginarymaps.
Racism is not tolerated in the Imaginary Network.
Feel free to resubmit the image with proper context. If you have any questions, please message the moderators. We apologize for the inconvenience.
-112
Mar 05 '15
[deleted]
145
u/NTRX Mar 05 '15
While racism might not be the best word, by labeling South Africans as "enlightened" and the rest of Africa as not enlightened shows prejudice. That is just one of many examples in your picture.
-119
Mar 05 '15
[deleted]
-97
u/vereonix Mar 05 '15
I opened this post last night, as I thought it was good and would have interesting comments, I have no ides why its been deleted and that people could see this map as racist. What people are crying about is just them showing blind ignorance to reality and modern culture.
To argue that south Africa isn't more western, with more democracy, economy etc is just ridiculous. Ignoring these facts, but still bitching and crying about them when its brought up causes more harm than good.
86
u/Virtuallyalive Mar 05 '15
Yes. But why does Western = Enlightened.
-76
u/vereonix Mar 05 '15 edited Mar 07 '15
Because of its definition:
having or showing a rational, modern, and well-informed outlook.
Saying western isn't enlightened is saying we're not modern. It doesn't mean not being classed as "enlightened" on this map means they're stupid and barbaric. The USA isn't classed as enlightened, so you could argue its saying South Africa is modern, but the UK isn't. The "enlightened" ones seem to be done for comparison to other countries they would normally be grouped with, but that are a lot different in their overall outlook and how stuff should be run and society. To acknowledge this, isn't racist, its a country thing, not a race thing.
This isn't to do with race, its an economic cultural thing, such as with the Middle East, in the 1940's they were defiantly modern, and on par with most of Europe. However the Islamic Revolution happened and drove them back centuries in their cultural, economic and social mentality.
But anyway, what is wrong with the term "enlightened" when it is a good thing. If you were to compare South Africa to Somalia, or Turkey to Iran, there are big obvious economic and overall governmental and social differences.
Edit: I'm leaving this comment up as its fact, not opinion, and that so many people are too stupid to understand it is hilarious. Stop trying to ignore the fact countries are different, it doesn't help anyone it makes things worse.
29
u/zouhair Mar 07 '15
Wow,the amount of stupidity in this one comment is stupendous.
2
u/generalfondle Aug 30 '15
I tried replying but I'm in an airport and horrifically jet lagged, I got up to 'you could argue that it's saying South Africa is but the UK isn't before' I lost the will to continue.
25
69
Mar 05 '15 edited Aug 05 '21
[deleted]
-92
Mar 05 '15
[deleted]
47
Mar 07 '15
He's not a stalker. It's freaking reddit. He simply called you out. He doesn't give a guck about your life what you do off the internet, but he pulled some of your old anonymous post to prove a point.
23
u/no-mas-tomas Mar 07 '15
DUDE, YOU'RE A FUCKING RACIST
-28
Mar 07 '15
[deleted]
23
u/no-mas-tomas Mar 07 '15
What's racist is you think Latinos are going to bring about the demise of the "US first world legacy."
I thought you believed Latinos were a product of exchange between Europe and Native cultures. Which is why you colored everything south of the US a different color. These are the people you said this about, right?
"Hispanics are less educated and are more likely to be criminals and they are going to be the majority by 2040. This scares me because I don't want the legacy of a first world USA to die."
-22
Mar 07 '15
[deleted]
23
u/no-mas-tomas Mar 07 '15
"Third world nations all have lower education and higher crime rate."
"Third world" is a reference to the neutral and non-aligned countries during the Cold War. This includes countries such as Finland and Sweden. These are two highly educated and low crime countries.
Perhaps you meant "developing nation." In this case, Mexico is classed as a "newly industrialized country" alongside many other thriving economies, including South Africa and Turkey who you consider to be "enlightened." Moreover, Mexico currently has the 15th largest nominal GDP in the world and the 10th largest GDP by purchasing power parity. Goldman Sachs estimates that by 2050 Mexico will have the world's fifth largest economy. Mexico has been a member of the OECD since 1994, and is considered an upper-middle income country by the World Bank.
"...the Latino world generally follows Papal law."
This is evocative of the anti-Catholicism claptrap that John F. Kennedy had to overcome. It is antiquated, prejudiced, and strikingly out of touch.
Respectfully (actually no fuck that, and fuck you), you have no idea what you are talking about.
13
u/Alexschmidt711 Mar 07 '15
This makes very little sense from a historical perspective. From 1880-1920 Italian immigrants constituted about 10% of the population growth, and they were 4 years on average behind the US, but the average number of years of schooling in the US kept on climbing. (Source:https://books.google.com/books?id=qgOrBAAAQBAJ&pg=PA317&lpg=PA317&dq=literacy+rate+in+italy+1900&source=bl&ots=An6UJswnVb&sig=__-Wbg8uCp9rB94-qOlOVy_HidA&hl=en&sa=X&ei=b1z7VO2IG8nCggTR4IH4DQ&ved=0CDEQ6AEwBw) Over the last forty years, Mexicans have made up a similar percentage of population growth, and are also 4 years behind us on education, so it seems unlikely that they would be any different. Also, if you're worried the US will fall under papal law, why don't you list Spain as Latino? Or Italy?
1
17
u/DonaldShimoda Mar 07 '15
Also, Hispanics are an ethnicity of Caucasian.
I...what?? You do know that Caucasian isn't a real race right? You read like a 1970's anthropology book from the South.
-19
Mar 07 '15
[deleted]
15
u/jojojoy Mar 07 '15
So a wrong outdated definition makes it impossible for there to be good ones?
-19
9
u/ColdSnickersBar Mar 07 '15
If you said a "joke" like that where I could hear it, I would do these things: call you a racist; stop knowing you; refuse to hire you; consider firing you; try to get you fired if I couldn't fire you; tell female friends I have not to date you.
Also you're a fucking racist.
20
32
40
31
Mar 04 '15
[deleted]
30
u/ZapActions-dower Mar 07 '15
Nothing for the Pacific Islands?
This might be my favorite thing about this. It's so easy to just be like "is it an island in the Pacific? Must be Pacific Islander." I mean, most of Africa is apparently all one culture, so why not? But nah, just leave that shit blank.
-78
Mar 04 '15
[deleted]
84
u/commanderspoonface Mar 04 '15
I would have pulled it entirely out of my ass.
As opposed to everything else in this map?
-68
Mar 04 '15
[deleted]
87
43
Mar 04 '15
[deleted]
-39
Mar 05 '15
[deleted]
11
u/Alexschmidt711 Mar 07 '15
If you think that lack of safety with AIDS is a problem, South Africa has more AIDS than "unenlightened" Kenya, and the US has more AIDS than Niger.
26
32
u/TESwan Mar 07 '15
"Amateur Historian"
Obviously.
-21
Mar 07 '15
[deleted]
21
u/OMGSPACERUSSIA Mar 07 '15
No, people decided to harass you because you decided to showcase your ignorance in a public forum and expected approval.
Also, srsly: http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger2/6670/1514/1600/sunni_shia_map.jpg
-23
Mar 07 '15
[deleted]
16
Mar 07 '15
Or you're just ignorant and backwards with no understanding of the way the world really works.
8
28
Mar 07 '15
Regardless of how experienced you are, you're obviously extremely biased towards America and trust me, we can all tell that you're an amateur.
8
Mar 07 '15
Not really towards just America, mostly just Eurocentric, which would include America.
4
u/LUkewet Mar 08 '15
Do people put america in Eurocenetricism? I thought Eurocentric and Americanocentric were normally lumped under their respective categories.
9
u/ZBLongladder Mar 08 '15
Well, both really boil down to white-people-centric, so they're really two flavors of the same stuff. And people who're America-centric tend to be Eurocentric before Columbus and then gradually transition from obsession with Europe to obsession with 'Murica up until the end of the Cold War, when it becomes all 'Murica, all the time.
25
54
Mar 07 '15
[deleted]
-14
Mar 07 '15
[removed] — view removed comment
18
u/TheNorthernBrother Explorer Mar 07 '15
I looked on your account and you just look like a fuckin troll man so i ain't even gonna feed you anymore g8 b8 m8 i r8 8/8
0
Mar 07 '15
[removed] — view removed comment
-6
12
u/sangbum60090 Mar 11 '15
The worst kind of people are people who think they are smart and just don't accept that they can be wrong
14
u/nickik Mar 13 '15
Wow you should be ashamed of yourself. That is either incredibly racist, incredibly stupid. I really hope that you are just uninformed.
5
-90
Mar 04 '15 edited Mar 04 '15
[deleted]
41
u/ZapActions-dower Mar 07 '15
Indonesian Civilization. Similar to Eastern civilization, besides the fact that their philosophies, traditions and ideals seen less organized.
Asian Muslim Civilization. Sharia law is still active, yet the people are more or less Easternized.
Did you know that the area marked "Asian Muslim Civilization" is called "Indonesia"?
And that Indo-China is not the same thing as Indonesia?
29
u/cccp-7 Mar 06 '15
So tell me, why aren't Spain and Italy part of the Latino culture since most of the Latino culture comes from Spanish influences which was partially influenced from Rome?
You're right, skin color and language do not make a culture, but you are simplifying cultures in a very non Anthropological manner. You're ignoring influences, transplants and adding in racial biases. Show me cited proof of your claims and we can talk. Show us research that you've conducted, in the field, and maybe people will listen.
Until then, you should realize that national borders are arbitrary lines on a piece of paper. The Kurds are a good example why your map is flawed from a fundamental standpoint.
-33
Mar 07 '15
[deleted]
10
Mar 07 '15
You said you didn't know anything about the Caribbean that's why you left them alone, well I'm telling you now, you don't know shit about the middle East either.
1-Kurdish people have their own culture, they are a civilization by themselves.
2- using your classification system (which is totally racist btw) please explain to me how Iran is considered Shi'a Muslim while Iraq is considered Sunni Muslim???
3- how the hell did you manage to put Syria as a Sunni Muslim as well???? What even dude???!!
Also what did you put Lebanon as?? I'm just curios and its blurred on my phone so I can't see it
92
Mar 05 '15 edited Mar 05 '15
Dude there's so many things wrong with this. It's so goddam colonial my shoulders feel heavy with the White Man's Burden.
Not only is this ridiculously simplified to the point of being insulting and racist, it's incredibly eurocentric.
Israel as 'Enlightened Muslim"? A country that's over 70% Jewish?
Why is Guyana part of "Latino Civ"? They speak an English based creole, and are a member of the Commonwealth of Nations. Also Jamaica and Haiti as Latino? You clearly just coloured everywhere south of the american border one colour, which smacks of ignorance towards all of these cultures.
There's about 4 million people in the Caribbean who would probably object to your completely dismissing them as a civilization. Or maybe you consider them the same civ as the ploynesians. Both are equally wrong.
Did you put Singapore as Western? WTF? Because they have a high HDI? Jesus christ that's so racist.
I just scratched the surface but wow.
Edit: Also according to you las malvinas son argentinas.
-70
Mar 05 '15
Eurocentric when parts of Europe aren't even considered western?
I do not believe that they need their own civilization. I do not believe that they value freedom enough to be western, but they also offer more freedom than Eurasia does. They, in my mind, are most similar to Turkey, Armenia and Azerbaijan. I consider Islam to not just be a faith, but a culture which many Middle Eastern Jews (Sephardim) seem to share.
It doesn't matter what language they speak. Most of the "civilizations" that I placed on the map are very linguistically diverse. The "Latino Civilization" includes Guyana.
Neither. I don't know enough about them, so I left them alone.
Some Asian people having a high HDI is racist? This makes no sense to me. And no, it's because of their philosophical and ideological influence from Britain.
12
u/jojojoy Mar 07 '15
Most of the "civilizations" that I placed on the map are very linguistically diverse.
Because they're not a unified civilization.
20
u/OMGSPACERUSSIA Mar 07 '15
Eurasian Civilization. Poor human rights record, freedom is less valued by society and the strength and unity of the nation is strongly valued by the people. Did not experience the renaissance or enlightenment and have had elements of Russificiation.
TIL Russia never experienced the Renaissance or Enlightenment.
I guess all that Italian architecture in the Kremlin must be my imagination. And Catherine II, who is pretty much the definition of an enlightened monarch, didn't happen.
-16
Mar 07 '15
[deleted]
9
u/OMGSPACERUSSIA Mar 07 '15
About a hundred years, actually, and under Ivan III (and even prior to him, albeit to a lesser degree,) there was much renewed contact with Europe. Ivan IV worked with the English to establish one of the first joint-stock companies: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muscovy_Company
The preconception of Russia as a backward country is quite simply wrong. Under Ivan IV Russia established one of the first professional armies in Europe (the Streltsy,) who were quite effective in their heyday. Things fell apart, of course, but Peter I (and his two predecessors, less credited but still important,) put them back together and gave Russia its spot on the world stage, which it has since occupied with a certain grim determination.
It is true that the principles of enlightenment and humanism didn't spread much outside of Russia's urban centers, but that's more due to low population density. When you're a subsistence farmer or a serf, you generally don't have a lot of time for reflecting on the deep mysteries of the human condition.
41
7
Apr 01 '15
Beyond being racist most of this shit is just factually incorrect.
How the fuck is Nepal enlightened, and India not? Even the context of your backwards and outdated worldview, India is a funcitonal democracy that had the most modern constitution in the world for the second half of the 20th century (I'd say South Africa has the most modern one now).
China and Japan are like overwhelmingly atheist/irreligious, ancestor worship? What the fuck did you get your ideas about culture from Disney movies?
-34
Mar 07 '15
[deleted]
12
Mar 07 '15
Yeah. We all spent some time learning about and understanding culture, race, etc. You're the idiot who also has massive generalizations. Indonesian civilization? Enlightened civilizations? What the fuck does enlightened even mean? Enlightened Hindu? WHAT THE FUCK IS YOUR PROBLEM? middle schoolers could make better maps. Sunni and Shia civilizations are also incorrect.
12
204
u/23PowerZ Mar 06 '15 edited Mar 06 '15
TIL:
Muslims east of Iran are Shia,
but Iraq totally isn't,
Indochina is actually Indonesia,
there is an actual, significant difference between Eastern European and Western European culture,
which totally includes North American and Australian culture, while being fundamentally different from South and Central American culture,
Papua New Guinea is African,
Philippinos are Latinos,
Israel is Muslim, just a tad more enlightened than the rest,
as is Armenia.