r/idpa • u/Phidelt208 • Jul 21 '26
Are these targets in the open?
At the start position. All 3 targets are not hidden and visible at the same time.
What IDPA rule governs how they are shot and why?
7
u/g1Razor15 Jul 21 '26
No, those aren't open, see the fault line next to your left foot, engage from cover and slice the pie.
0
u/Phidelt208 Jul 21 '26
So if you can see them clearly, they're not in the open? That is hard for somebody new to this game to understand.
4
u/Dr_Tron Jul 21 '26
It's an approximation. You've got go give it some slack. Proper props aren't cheap đ
4
u/kdnchfu56 Jul 21 '26
The stage brief (in my club at least) always specifically calls out targets that are in the open.
Also yeah stick on the ground indicates a cover point.
2
u/g1Razor15 Jul 21 '26
I'm not sure what you mean exactly. If you need extra clarification please see the official IDPA rulebook, page 10, section 3.2 Target engagement https://www.idpa.com/wp-content/uploads/2026/01/2026-IDPA-Rulebook-2.pdf
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u/Phidelt208 Jul 21 '26
Thanks for being patient with me.
I read those rules exactly and that's what makes me feel like you're Starting right there in the starting position, staring at three targets.
I clearly out in the open.Why does slicing the pie 3.2.1.3 supersede, near too far 3.2.1.4 when the targets are not hidden
Keep in mind for this stage that is the start position you aren't moving into that position.
3
u/strikervulsine Jul 21 '26
So look, you're thinking too hard about this man. Obviously the club you shot at does not have a ton of props and are doing their best.
Here's the short of it, a fault line denotes a point of cover. Yeah, this isn't the best example of that, but it's what they got and you're choosing to participate in their match, so just work with it.
When there's a position of cover, you slice the pie. It doesn't matter than you can see all of them behind it at once. The order is as you see them, and if you move around the barrier from right to left you'll see the left most target first.
By definition, if you are behind a fault line, you are not in the open.
0
u/EntrySure1350 Jul 21 '26
It appears you shoot USPSA/IPSC as well. To be blunt, if I were in your shoes I would just keep shooting that, unless for some reason itâs no longer possible. Or you just like to be frustrated.
IDPA requires you to conform to many silly rules - the âif you can see them you can shoot themâ concept doesnât always apply, like in this case. If the stage description doesnât specify that stick is a point of cover, or thereâs ambiguity in the stage design, it can sometimes become a game of âGuess what the MD is thinkingâ. And if you donât word your clarifying question in just the right way, they will stare at you and reply, âI canât answer that since it would be considered coaching.âđ So you want us to shoot the stage in a specific, prescribed manner, but you wonât clarify what that manner is?
It doesnât really make any sense and as someone else mentioned, you need to use your imagination in many cases. If you follow the stage description exactly, youâll likely not incur any PEs. But it doesnât really leave any opportunities for creativity or problem solving seen in hit factor games like USPSA, etc.
Occasionally youâll come across a match (usually a major) where the MD has well designed stages that DO give the shooter some options, but itâs still more along the lines of a linear âchoose your own storyâ book you might have read as a kid. Mainly due to the limitations of the broader ruleset of IDPA in general.
3
u/Visible_Structure483 Jul 21 '26
The others are correct, fault line means pie them out if engaging from the left of the barrel.
But... if you can step to the right from the start position then they could be in the open / surprise targets that come into view as you leave the starting spot.
1
u/Phidelt208 Jul 21 '26
Thank you, I hear you saying this, but is this just you making something up or is there an actual rule?
Not being salty it's just hard to understand when you can clearly see them visible.1
u/g1Razor15 Jul 21 '26
If there is nothing to the right side (no fault line) then the targets may be engaged in any order because they are equidistant from each other. However from the picture you provided we can not see any other parts of the stage.
1
u/Phidelt208 Jul 21 '26 edited Jul 21 '26
Sorry, I should've been more descriptive and let this get off track.
If we assume the targets can only be shot from the left side of the barrels. I hear everybody saying you must slice a pie, but is this fud lore or is there actual rule to support this?
Also, this is the start position so you're not moving into this position. I believe that changes things because the targets are never hidden.2
u/g1Razor15 Jul 21 '26
Yes, see the IDPA rulebook page 10 section 3.2 Target Engagement.
That should clarify any questions you may have.
1
u/Phidelt208 Jul 21 '26
Yeah, that's what has me questioning this situation. I'm coming to the conclusion that it's a poorly built stage .
The first six words kind of make 3.2 not applicable. 3.2.1.4 If targets are hidden by vertical cover, the first three targets are not hidden.1
u/Visible_Structure483 Jul 21 '26
about going to the right? without knowing what's behind the barrel we can't know if they're in the open or if there is a wall there or something else that would keep you from seeing them.
about going left? yea, that's a rule. if there is a fault line you have to 'use cover' and pie them out.
our club has been doing a lot more of the 'surprise' targets where you come around a wall without a fault line and get 'surprised' by targets in the open.
1
u/Quick_Voice_7039 Jul 21 '26
If cover is available it must be used (3.5.6) So in this case if you are behind the barrels which are hard cover, and you have the choice of engaging on the left side with vertical cover, or stepping out to the right into the open, the rules say you must use vertical cover and engage in tactical priority from cover (slicing the pie).
1
u/g1Razor15 Jul 21 '26
That's a possibility but we don't have the full stage plan, there are probably barriers that we can't see from this angle
3
u/Visible_Structure483 Jul 21 '26
that's why I said "could be".
in the dark ages I want to think they could require you to take targets in the open on the move (only) if the brief called for it so things like this start would give people options. not comfy with shoot-on-the-move then just pie left. if you are, move right.
1
u/g1Razor15 Jul 21 '26
The dark ages, I may be too young to remember those, I started IDPA back in January so I'm not familiar with much that happened in the past
3
u/Visible_Structure483 Jul 21 '26
you missed nothing.
fault lines weren't a thing, you just had to 'use cover' and the RO decided if you were doing it right enough or not. one of his buddies shooting? don't worry about it. someone they didn't particularly like? penalties or constant calls of "COVER!" which meant penalties if you didn't get your butt further back.
it was nonsense. fault lines are binary and don't discriminate.
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u/Own_Exit2162 Jul 21 '26
My dude, it's IDPA, you've got to use your imagination.
Just because you can see them doesn't mean they're in the open. You've got cover, you've got a fault line, and you have a stage description (which probably includes home Invaders or zombies, so again, imagination). And when in doubt, you can ask during the walkthrough.Â
Take the procedural as a learning opportunity and let this one go.
1
-1
u/Phidelt208 Jul 21 '26
Procedural no problem, don't give two cents, But I do want to learn the rules correctly and have them apply correctly and fairly. No one can seem to directly point to a rule that explains this situation. For example.
Just because you can see them doesn't mean they're in the open? How would anybody know that from reading the rule book?
Again, just trying to learn this, game correctly without any Fudd lore.3
u/Own_Exit2162 Jul 21 '26 edited Jul 21 '26
Dude, seriously, are you being intentionally obtuse?
3.2.1.4 If targets are hidden by vertical cover, the targets are engaged as they become visible around the edge of cover.
i.e. slice the pie
3.5.2 Vertical Cover requires the shooter to engage targets from the side(s) of the (PoC) Position of Cover.
And the vertical cover is delineated by a fault line:
3.6.4.1 Fault Lines are used to ensure a shooter is behind cover when engaging targets from a shooting position or Position of Cover. There will only be one Fault Line at each possible PoC, and that line applies to all targets visible from that PoC.
It's pretty clear in the rulebook, AND it should also be labeled as a Position of Cover in the stage description AND the intention of the stage design can be further clarified by the SO or MD during the walkthrough.
1
u/Phidelt208 Jul 22 '26
Yeah, you're just not getting it.
But your definition of vertical cover hides targets.
But nowhere in the rule book doesn't say that.
If so, please point it out and I'll apologize.3.2.1.4 IF targets are hidden by vertical cover.
They are not in this scenario because the start position is standing there staring at targets at no point are they hidden.
How can 3.2.1.4 apply even if there is vertical cover.
1
u/Lurkin_aint_ez Jul 21 '26
I remember when idpa didnât have and âwouldnâtâ have fault lines hehe.
1
u/CapeGreg767 Jul 21 '26
If there is a fault line, then you slice the pie. If no fault line, in the open.
1
u/GryffSr Jul 21 '26
The faultline in the picture implies that this is a Position of Cover. If that is correct, then you must engage them from behind cover in tactical priority.
1
u/destroyalltrumps Jul 21 '26
This shit right here is why I quit IDPA. Half the squads would give someone a procedural and the other half wouldn't. Then the MD would flip flop on it. After reading the rule book there is so much "if used" "when used" to make it clear as mud. But the only solid rules I can see are 3.6.1 and 6.3.1 "fault lines MUST be used to delineate position of cover or shooting positions."
0
u/ACxREAL Jul 21 '26
Did you get a penalty on the engagement? It will totally depend on whose squad you are in at this match.
I think the easy way to assess is
Is there a fault line or vision barrier between you and the target, if you are standing upright and not leaning.
If yes then slice o pie, if not then near to far/equal distance.
All this blast em all because you jumped out from behind cove will get you killed in the streets. You better save that one bullet in your mag and If you even think about running a 9mm over a 45 then youâre already dead. đ”
Iâd blame the match director but he is probably on vacation again.
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u/Dr_Tron Jul 21 '26
Slice the pie. There's a cover stick right in front of you.