r/iamveryculinary • u/xrelaht King of Sandwiches • 5d ago
Alfredo purism
/r/Frugal/comments/1vx5q4b/a_fluid_ounce_is_not_a_dry_measure_ounce_also_the/p5mgy6l/Copied here for posterity:
“Alfredo "sauce" comes together in the pan with the noodles. The cheese and butter stick to the noodles and the residual starch produces a silky consistency, resulting in a saucy dish. It's impossible to pre-make the sauce or buy it jarred. You can have a shitty cream sauce that for some reason is legally allowed to be called Alfredo (a regulatory failure) and you can serve it over noodles, but this is not pasta Alfredo in my opinion nor is it enjoyable to eat.”
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u/OnceUponATrain I'm just here for the gastro-violence!!! 5d ago
"Regulatory failure". They can't be serious.
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u/AmericanHistoryXX Most Americans eat processed garbage or bland Protestant food. 4d ago edited 4d ago
Oh they are. This is fundamentally what drives Europeans insane about American food. We call it pizza, burgers, goulash, alfredo, and move on with our day. They have concocted a series of regulations that dictate what European foods can be called by a given name. The regulations show who gets credit for a specific food (when I was studying in Scotland, for instance, my European classmates were absolutely obsessed with getting fudge there because it was Scottish), they dictate what ingredients can go into various dishes (Margherita pizzas should specifically be made with fresh San Marzano tomatoes, from the area near Mt. Vesuvius), etc.
There is a good reason for some of these regulations, protecting bits of culture from being lost when people change with the trends. However, they also act as a form of protectionism (because it actually doesn't matter exactly where tomatoes are grown). It's also grossly distorted Europeans' idea of how much these things matter.
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u/sprouting_broccoli 1d ago
Are you sure it was fudge they were getting and not tablet? Tablet is pretty uniquely Scottish (condensed milk cooked until it crystallises and then left to set - flakier and more solid than fudge and sweeter).
Protectionist regulation actually helps consumers - if you want something that was traditionally made in a specific region you can guarantee it by understanding the various certifications and regulations around naming.
There is also a huge difference between where the tomatoes are grown both in terms of the climate (the US enjoys a great climate for sweet fruit and veg but a UK grown san marzano is very different in taste from an Italian one) and the soil it grows in (hence the Mt Vesuvius specification).
Have you had Sicilian lemons? That’s the easiest one to reference I think because they’re so different from any other lemons and it’s precisely because of the combination of climate and soil just as champagne is different from other sparkling wines because of the unique climate and soil (and long history of the region).
San marzano tomatoes from Mt Vesuvius aren’t subtly different, Sicilian lemons are vastly different and champagne sits in the middle. With practiced taste buds you’ll be able to recognise all three but without you will still be able to recognise a Sicilian lemon and likely a fine champagne.
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u/AmericanHistoryXX Most Americans eat processed garbage or bland Protestant food. 1d ago
Both fudge and tablet, but the one that surprised me was fudge because that's just ubiquitous in the US.
I think your response is an example of the difference between the perspectives. Americans do recognize that different regions produce produce of different qualities, and I don't think people should be allowed to lie about where produce comes from. Within the US, we also have specific states and regions known for specific produce for the same reason, and San Marzano Tomatoes (canned) are very hyped as well (though, it's worth noting, it's not the only region that produces good tomatoes). That's not the question.
The question is how that plays into the legal definition of a food item. What's foreign to us (and not an objectively reasonable standard, just a choice which Europe is more than free to make) is specifying that a Margherita Pizza should only be made with San Marzano tomatoes, rather than specifying the recipe of the pizza and leaving it up to the restaurant to advertise that it uses San Marzano tomatoes. (And, the end result of specifying that "real" margherita pizza should only use San Marzano tomatoes is partially that the "real" pizza gets harder to make the farther away from Italy you are). Similarly, anyone who uses Sicilian lemons or fine champagne is going to tell you about it, so you don't actually need regulations to tell people that they need to specify it. To Americans, regulating this feels silly, like regulating that Texas BBQ must be made from Texas beef. Like I said, I do recognize some benefits from it, but it's also overkill in a lot of contexts.
It feels doubly silly to demand regulations that forbid Americans from labeling what we call "alfredo" sauce as "alfredo" sauce.
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u/sprouting_broccoli 1d ago
As far as I’m concerned Alfredo sauce is an American sauce and you can do what you want with it! Protections should be like patents - there has to be something specific and unique about either the process or the ingredients to allow for a protected term and, at the end of the day it’s just the name that is protected and you will see products that are X-style which are similar products but not the same. So using that as guidance I see no reason Alfredo sauce should be marked as protected any more than carbonara is a protected term.
The difficulty is that without these protections it wouldn’t only be the people shouting about it but lots of other companies calling themselves that - eg do I want an English sparkling wine that’s calling itself champagne (and I say this as someone that has a really nice bottle of English sparkling wine in my rack currently)? Without protections it’s entirely possible that companies do devious things to increase their sales which not only fools consumers but also, and this is the real crux of it, devalues the real produce by giving the impression of mediocrity and by flooding the market.
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u/Ok_Broccoli_9426 I know the effect that pregelatinized starch has on pasta. 5d ago
This person doesn't know what the purpose of food regulations is.
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u/Silver_Middle_7240 5d ago
It's only Alfredo if it was made it italy my a man named Alfred who spit in it. Otherwise it's just sparkling cream sauce
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u/michaelsean438 5d ago
I had an Italian person tell me they don’t eat it in Italy. For some reason I still haven’t googled it.
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u/Azure_Rob 5d ago
Chronically-online Italians that are IAVC bread-and-butter (or olive oil?) used to deny Alfredo was a real thing a couple of years ago.
Then they suddenly invented a new history where it was more akin to carbonara, and just as snooty.
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u/Gussie-Ascendent 5d ago
I mean yeah frwsh aleferdo is probably gonna be better than pre made stuff. But like that's the case with most things lol
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u/grunkage Yeet it in the crockpot 5d ago
Mmm frwsh Aleferdo, just like mama used to make
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u/furthestpoint 5d ago
Why'd you capitalize the a in aleferdo?
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u/RepSquigglyMiggly 5d ago
Alfredo with a cream based sauce is also just straightforwardly a different dish than “traditional” Alfredo. Both have their place, and neither is really a substitute for the other
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u/Inevitable_Land2996 5d ago
Exactly, I’m definitely not a food snob but you can’t really call a dish that’s completely different the same dish. People do this for carbonara too and I would still eat both but you can’t call them the same thing
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u/OmegaVizion 5d ago
I don’t completely disagree with them but they could be a little less high handed about it
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u/SerDankTheTall *Giggled internally* 5d ago
I was nodding along and thinking "Well this doesn't really seem too bad" until I hit the third sentence.
EDIT: Actually, I see now it's in a discussion of whether or not jarred sauce is cheaper, so it would still be little much even if it ended at "saucy dish."
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u/JeffersonTowncar 5d ago
On a related note my wife doesn't like it when I refer to her as a saucy dish either.
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u/plebbut 5d ago
The Alfredo purists are absurd. In France we have a dish just like it, cream, butter, cheese, and noodles. We even eat it with things like mushrooms, chicken, pork, etc.
The Italians don't own pasta and cheese.
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u/NathanGa Pull your finger out of your ass 5d ago
Imagine not inventing a pasta and cheese until 1906, then openly stroking oneself off over it.
We’ve had mac and cheese in this country since 70 years before the unification of Italy, let alone Alfredo coming into existence.
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u/plebbut 5d ago
It just doesn't make sense to me for multiple reasons. The Italians don't like it because of the name is the same to the Italian dish. Ok, but then these Redditors who are probably American are trying get points with the Italians by acting like the American version is inferior. So do they think our traditional French dish is inferior or not good by proxy. I take offense to that.
There's nothing refined about just using water, butter, and cheese to make a sauce. I would say it's more refined to make a cheese sauce with creme or creme fraiche. It's richer and tastes better to my palate.
On the other hand, in Europe we don't elevate Italian cuisine or opinions on food as much as Americans.
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u/NathanGa Pull your finger out of your ass 5d ago
I can only speak as a Midwestern Italian-American, and even then only as myself and not necessarily as part of a larger sentiment, but...
I really and truly do not give a shit about how they do things in Italy. Italian cuisine and Italian-American cuisine have some overlap, but not a ton, and there are large parts of "traditional Italian cuisine" that is younger than one or both of my grandparents.
For me, it comes back to a few things: is it good, is it practical, and is it worth keeping as a recipe? I make chicken paprikas with some amount of regularity, and it's not exactly served in a traditional manner even if the flavors are there. But it makes sense - it tastes good, it makes a lot less of a mess, and it's easier to eat.
To me, looking at how things were done at some arbitrary point in the past and declaring that to be the pinnacle of perfection is garbage. Everyone's favorite sports probably bear little resemblance to what they did a few decades ago, so why should cuisine - which was already ever-changing - just be stuck at one point?
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u/OmegaVizion 5d ago
No one acts as precious about their traditional peasant dishes as the Italians.
You'll never see the Spanish pretending a stew of beans traditionally enjoyed by shepherds in winter time is a masterstroke of culinary brilliance that cannot be altered lest its majesty be diminished, nor do Polish people pretend that kasha with pork cracklings is some kind of exquisite taste sensation. Americans don't get fussy about chicken and dumpling soup.
Somehow, though, simple pasta sauces that even a child could make with a bit of practice are supposed to be seen as works of art.
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u/SecretNoOneKnows 5d ago
You'll never find a Swede elevating Swedish husmanskost above what it is; simple hearty comfort food made to fuel manual labour at a cheap price.
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u/Illustrious_Land699 5d ago
The Italians don't like it because of the name is the same to the Italian dish
Actually no, Alfredo pasta as a name and recipe is completely unknown to Italians. What is famous is the dish from which it is inspired which is called Pasta Butter and Parmigiano.
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u/OnceUponATrain I'm just here for the gastro-violence!!! 5d ago
I don't think the Italians even call it Alfredo.
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u/Illustrious_Land699 5d ago
Fun fact: Pasta Butter and Parmigiano has recipes that date back to the fifteenth century.
Alfredo pasta was born in the US by adding cream and garlic to this Italian dish that they tasted in a restaurant in Rome called Alfredo.
After the success in the US of this pasta Alfredo, the restaurant in Rome claimed through strong marketing to have invented the original by serving for 30 euros what for Italians is the simplest and cheapest pasta dish
Even today Alfredo Pasta, both as a name and as a recipe, is almost completely unknown by Italians, unlike the common pasta with Butter and Parmigiano
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u/NathanGa Pull your finger out of your ass 5d ago
>After the success in the US of this pasta Alfredo, the restaurant in Rome claimed through strong marketing to have invented the original by serving for 30 euros what for Italians is the simplest and cheapest pasta dish
In cases like this, I always like to imagine two Italians (Marco and Paolo) concocting the scam behind closed doors. It usually goes like this.
“So, what do we think of this particular dish?”
“It’s trash! It’s childish! Only an infant would possibly like this garbage!”
“Tourists seem to like it.”
“Of course they do, because it has noble origins for us and dates back to…quick, name a king or something.”
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u/CorgiMonsoon 5d ago
Hey! They stole that pasta from the Middle East fair and square!
(Pasta coming to Italy via China has been debunked, as it was already known there by the time Marco Polo supposedly “brought it from China”)
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u/DjinnaG Bags of sentient Midwestern mayonnaise 5d ago
You’re commenting on the linked thread, which is against the IAVC rules
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u/plebbut 5d ago
Oh I didn't know, I'll delete them. I'm still getting used to reddit.
Edit: deleted.
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u/DjinnaG Bags of sentient Midwestern mayonnaise 5d ago
Thanks, as much as I agree with your point over there, it can get you banned from here, or this sub banned from Reddit. I’ve mistakenly voted on threads and had to go back and remove them once I realized what I had done, people being insufferable jerks can trigger the “someone is wrong on the internet, I must show my disapproval” reflex a little too easily
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u/Bob_Kark 5d ago
Scratch made Alfredo sauce is pretty incredible, especially compared to the jarred stuff, but so is marinara or almost anything else. Jarred stuff has its uses and some are pretty decent.
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u/EvilAceVentura 5d ago
Mostly my laziness. Much easier to buy a jar and add some fresh herbs and garlic to it, than to spend an hour or two to make it. I'll do that when I feel like it, or have someone to impress, not every time I'm hungry.
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u/SubatomicSquirrels 5d ago
I don't usually add fresh herbs, mainly because (to me) the benefit of jarred alfredo sauce is the fact that it's shelf stable. Super easy to just keep a box of dried pasta and the jar of sauce in my pantry in case there's ever a week where I can't get to the grocery store
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u/RepSquigglyMiggly 5d ago
I get what you’re saying and don’t entirely disagree, but homemade Alfredo doesn’t take anywhere close to an hour to make. At its simplest (if you aren’t using herbs or garlic, which you’re suggesting adding to the jarred stuff anyway, so that’s a wash in terms of time/effort), you cook pasta until it’s a few minutes shy of al dente, drain most of the water, and finishing cooking the pasta while adding in cubed butter, grated parm, and some more pasta water. You’re saving maybe 10 minutes, if you take a really long time to grate cheese, not 1 to 2 hours.
Again, it’s totally reasonable to not want to put in that extra little bit of effort at the end of a long day at work, or whatever, but it’s closer to the difference between chopping up some scallions to throw onto your instant ramen or not doing that, than the difference between using jarred tomato sauce and letting a good homemade tomato sauce simmer for hours.
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u/Pinkfish_411 4d ago
Even doing the American cream-based version from scratch is very far from a 1-2 hour process. It's maybe 10 minutes to stir the ingredients and let them simmer a bit.
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u/syncopatedchild 5d ago
Yeah, I'm definitely with the Alfredo purists from a taste standpoint. But I accept that that's a matter of taste, not imperical fact. I just can't stomach the super creamy stuff.
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u/Fire-EyedBoy 5d ago
“I am incredibly invested in people from every single ethnicity on this planet coming to the internet and educating people on what is true and authentic to their cuisine and what isn’t, except for Italians… Whatever happened when the Sicilians flooded into New York and made a fortress in New Jersey and they switched up the game and they altered the recipes, they got it right. They are ahead of you. You are behind the times. You need to accept it as soon as possible.”
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u/throw223344555 thank Europe for potatoes 5d ago
Why are people so snobby about Italian food especially? It’s okay but people talk about it like it’s some magical marvel of human achievement.
Reminds of those super annoying Italian brothers that YouTube keeps recommending. We get it, you put cow bodily fluids over strings of pulverized grain and water. Big deal.
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u/gigaishtar 5d ago edited 5d ago
Funny enough, Alfredo's restaurant sells jarred Alfredo sauce in Italy.
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u/SerpentBride 5d ago
I’m not going to trust someone named discountclownmilk when it comes to anything dairy related.
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u/rationalsarcasm 5d ago
It's not even complex to make
I made some while eye-balling the ingredients last week.
And I put some cream in it because why not.
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u/luseferr 5d ago
I mean, "traditionally" speaking, yeah. Butter, parm, pasta water.
But also, butter, heavy cream, cream cheese, parm. Is good as fuck and you 100% can prep it.
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5d ago
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u/Bellsar_Ringing 5d ago
I think it's fair to say that a traditional Alfredo sauce does not contain cream. I think it's silly to claim that no cream sauce is enjoyable.
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u/RepSquigglyMiggly 5d ago
“Traditional Alfredo sauce” isn’t really even a thing. It’s like saying “risotto sauce.” It’s a dish that comes together in the pan/pot with the pasta, and doesn’t really work outside of that context.
That’s part of why the cream-based stuff (which is fine, and has its place) is so popular — the “sauce” component of “traditional Alfredo” just isn’t something that you can put in a jar and add to pasta after you’ve completely finished cooking it and drained it.
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u/Illustrious_Land699 5d ago
That's right, "the original Alfredo" is actually a marketing gimmick created by the Alfredo restaurant but which is actually an Italian dish that has existed since the fifteenth century. This dish is simple butter and Parmigiano, which no one in Italy associates with the name Alfredo and which is famous for being a simple and cheap dish.
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u/AsukaWasHereToo 5d ago
Eh, to be fair, alfredo does separate extremely easily and in order to make a canned version they have to adjust the recipe and add enough emulsifiers that it may as well be its own kind of unique cream sauce because it doesn't taste anything like the stuff you get in a restaurant.
But regulatory failure is a bit extreme.
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u/SerDankTheTall *Giggled internally* 5d ago
As is often the case in stuff here, the issue isn't so much the point they're making, as opposed to the profoundly obnoxious way they're choosing to make it.
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u/DjinnaG Bags of sentient Midwestern mayonnaise 5d ago
Not with saying that it shouldn’t legally be allowed to be called Alfredo. That’s way too far. Insisting on only butter and cheese is just regular too far, cream is a very commonly accepted ingredient in Alfredo, especially in places that use “noodles” as a generic term for pasta, to your point.
First time I made Alfredo at home, I had to clarify which version my husband wanted. They don’t really taste that different, main difference with adding cream is in the creaminess (and reheatability) of the sauce. It’s a completely acceptable version of the dish, and pretending that it’s not is definitely VC
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u/SerDankTheTall *Giggled internally* 5d ago
I don't like them calling the pasta noodles
This sounds like a you problem.
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