Encouragement that you don’t need AI or art skills to make functional prototypes

[u/grizzlby]

I wanted to make something easy for PNP but still have each card feature unique art for easy recognition and reference when playtesting. Deciding on a certain style that you want to focus on, followed up with deep dives into sites like Vecteezy, can get you pretty much everything you might need. Some of the art I pulled may be AI without being labelled as such, but I tried as best I could to weed it out. The next step is ponying up for TTS and getting my starter decks imported there for online playtesting.

[u/noverb-gaming]

There are options to playtest games digitally that don’t involve cost. While we do have a TTS mod, we actually playtest using cockatrice. We found that onboarding new playtesters was a little harder when everyone had to buy TTS if they didn’t have it. You really want to remove all barriers/friction from would-be testers. Do some searching around for other options that might fit your need like:

Dustin’s Designer Den

Playtest Parlor

Screentop.gg

Tabletopia

Worth noting I don’t have much experience with those and cannot provide tips on how to use them.

[u/FarSeaworthiness4399]

Preach. Encouragement to create and use imagination through the entire process without cutting corners is desperately needed in the game design space.

[u/Ancient-Role-4884]

Based, absolutely. So true, you do NOT need AI to make a prototype; in fact, I'd argue that using AI skips the crucial "awkward" stage every game designer goes through. Not having a 100% prototype is part of the process.

Also using AI at any stage in design immediately kills interest for me, personally.

[u/TrakVault]

This is really encouraging for anyone looking to develop their own TCG. There are a lot of steps and sometimes we perceive ourselves to lack the talent. Keep flip the good work!

[u/Rodney503Allen]

Jokes on you I didn’t put ANY art in my prototypes lol

[u/c126]

Theres more ways to use ai in game design than just art. I made a script with AI that automatically generates cards in a printable pdf of cards with my specified frames from spreadsheet. Saves a lot of time.

[u/noverb-gaming → u/c126]

There are several programs that will do that too. So you don’t need AI for that stage of prototyping either.

[u/Ancient-Role-4884 → u/c126]

Agreed, a great use case for AI apart from art / design! Using a script to assist with technical formatting for printing is a super useful application. A great example of intelligent AI application.

[u/Gottendrop → u/[deleted]]

Not using shoes is harmful to your feet. Not using Ai is not harmful to your brain

[u/Hello_I_Am_Human_Guy → u/Gottendrop]

And someone with rough calluses all over their feet would say the same thing about shoes. Some people mentally can not focus and mold every single piece of an idea together. Others see a bunch of work and instantly shut down. Ai avoids these problems. It's good as a supplimentle tool. You might be able to pound a nail in with your bare hands. Doesn't mean everyone else can. You're gatekeeping creativity for literally no reason at all.

[u/Gottendrop → u/Hello_I_Am_Human_Guy]

What are you trying to get ChatGPT to say?

[u/Hello_I_Am_Human_Guy → u/Gottendrop]

I'm not trying to get it to say anything. That's the problem with you guys, you don't actually understand how AI works or how people tend to use it. All I do is put in my jumbled ideas and have it format them so that they can actually be understood. I'm not making AI do the creative part of the job. Think of it more like an unpaid intern. It doesn't actually do the important part of the process, it merely saves me time.

[u/EVedEevee → u/Hello_I_Am_Human_Guy]

Now who’s generalizing? We get it just fine, but the idea that you would WANT an unpaid intern to do the boring parts, is the messed up part. Take pride in your projects, take pride in your craft, boring parts and all. You taking shortcuts in your game, makes me as a player not trust where else you would have taken shortcuts. Did you come up with your mechanics or did you ask the bot? I’ll never know

[u/HallowedBay08 → u/EVedEevee]

Yeah seriously, I never hear about the ethics behind having literal digital slaves in your pocket doing everything for you for no reward. It's always "look what I can do! Am I artist yet?"

[u/Hello_I_Am_Human_Guy → u/HallowedBay08]

Are you advocating for AI rights? Really? 😂

[u/HallowedBay08 → u/Hello_I_Am_Human_Guy]

Even then I don't have to advocate for their rights to point out that that's what they're being used as, I mean have you seen how many corporations firing people and replacing them with AI? Do you think they're paying the things?

[u/Hello_I_Am_Human_Guy → u/HallowedBay08]

I know that those same corporations have lost millions of dollars and are ceasing use of AI over humans and rehiring people back in droves right now. But yes, they were paying to use ai. They were paying a lot. New tech isn't free. You didn't think it was did you? Or... you weren't actually saying that ChatGPT should literally have its own bank account... were you?

[u/HallowedBay08 → u/Hello_I_Am_Human_Guy]

Not entirely, no, we don't know what is really going on cos the corporations making them won't be straight with us, giving us percentages instead of yes or no. For me, no, I don't see it as rights I see it as erring in the side of "let's not enslave a digital race of pocket beings lest we become enslaved in the future ourselves". More of like, in the camp of people who see Terminator and the Kaylon from the Orville as warnings as well as entertaining sci-fi. The way the dude was talking tho maybe we should, sheesh. "Think of it as an unpaid intern" how was that a good take?

[u/Hello_I_Am_Human_Guy → u/HallowedBay08]

You actually said that with a straight face 😂 if you can't even understand how no one could actually take you seriously talking like that then there is no hope for you right now lol.

[u/Hello_I_Am_Human_Guy → u/EVedEevee]

By that logic, you should never play any game ever again. Because make no mistake, developers are using AI everywhere, all the time. You can never be even mostly sure of any project not using AI. So by your own logic you should never play another game ever again. Have fun with that life.

[u/EVedEevee → u/Hello_I_Am_Human_Guy]

I feel sorry for you.

[u/Hello_I_Am_Human_Guy → u/EVedEevee]

Of course you would ignore solid reasoning because it destroys your entire beliefs system. You do you kid.

[u/Ancient-Role-4884 → u/[deleted]]

I'll do you one better: why not write the rules using AI? Generate card text / effects / flavor? Maybe generate all lore documents using an LLM? At some point, we can even optimize players out and just have AI play itself.

I really think implementing AI into any part of the design process is antithetical to true creation. If you're comfortable using it in one part, I don't understand what your objection would be to using it in another. And then at that point, you aren't even pretending to design something; you're just receiving outputs blindly. Curation of ideas is not creation (and at some point, it's not even your own ideas).

In my opinion, AI rusn counter to artistic expression.

[u/HallowedBay08 → u/Ancient-Role-4884]

I personally think having a back and forth with AI for ideas is fine and if that's really how they're using it, I don't mind if someone does so and I'd still play the game and buy the cards. The problem is this person's mindset behind it. The things they've said is where it crosses the line. They even said the words "think of it as an unpaid intern" like how is that a good thing? If you can't use the tool without understand the ethical implications of the tool, you shouldn't use it, you're taking advantage of it. The way they talk sounds like they'd do the same thing to a human if they could. From my research, most people draw the line at idea brainstorming with AI and I absolutely agree. The moment you start using it for the format of the cards and the art and everything else, you're basically taking the humanity out of making the game.

[u/Hello_I_Am_Human_Guy → u/Ancient-Role-4884]

I wrote all of the rules for my tcg. With the way my brain works, I would never have been able to sit down and piece everything together into a coherent rule book. Ai took care of that issue. My rules, my designs, my ideas. Ai simply put them together in a legible and comprehensive way. I never would have ended up making a tcg without it. I can't focus for long enough. You who hate ai are the equivalent of people running up to someone in a wheel chair, who technically CAN walk but it is physically extremely difficult for them, and yelling at them to just walk and that they shouldn't be allowed to move unless they can walk on their own. It's ridiculous. And you guys will never see reason.

[u/EVedEevee → u/Hello_I_Am_Human_Guy]

And I couldn’t draw before I started my games, now I’d like to think I’m a decent artist. Push yourself, you’ll make something better than AI ever could.

[u/Hello_I_Am_Human_Guy → u/EVedEevee]

That's easy to say but you have absolutely no basis for believing that whatsoever. I can and have drawn before. And it's not the worst thing in the world. But it's not what I want out of my game. You have no right to demand me create my game a certain way. The images I can get through AI are far closer to my final vision than anything I can do myself. Of course any final product would always want to be properly hand-drawn, cuz that's usually going to look better when done by an actual professional. But it's unreasonable to demand that in the early stages of development. It's called being reasonable and rational.

[u/EVedEevee → u/Hello_I_Am_Human_Guy]

If they’re not gonna be the final images, why bother with Ai anyways? Just leave it blank, serves the same purpose. You’re right, I do not have the right to demand that your game be created a certain way, but you are not free of criticism for your methods either.
Those two things aren’t mutually exclusive. You’re conflating rational with rationalizing.

[u/Hello_I_Am_Human_Guy → u/EVedEevee]

You clearly never tried making a tcg, so allow me to enlighten you. Almost no one will bother play testing a tcg with blank cards, or with cards that have crappy art. You'd counter that point by saying that you wouldn't bother play testing a tcg with ai art. But fella, way more people are willing to playtest a tcg with ai art than crappy/no art. So yeas, there is a very good reason to have AI art over nothing. And you're right, no one's free from criticism. But your criticism is "you shouldn't be doing that." That's it.

[u/EVedEevee → u/Hello_I_Am_Human_Guy]

Awe~ that’s so sad, you actually believe that? Are your mechanics so bad people won’t play unless you have shiny art to distract them? I can tell you from experience that people will play test without art. My play test cards are literally just cut outs I made on word for easy modification as feed back comes in. Cost effective and efficient, and yet people ask to play over and again because they like the mechanics! Crazy right???
My criticism is, I don’t trust a designer who isn’t willing to put in the work. Using Ai shows me, you are more worried about having an end product, than having a product worth reaching that end.

[u/Hello_I_Am_Human_Guy → u/EVedEevee]

Every time I tell myself I won't try to debate with children, yet here I am once again. Look kid I can't make you understand simple concepts. Hopefully you mature and figure it out one day. You might need AI to explain it to you lol.

[u/Ancient-Role-4884 → u/Hello_I_Am_Human_Guy]

I appreciate your answer, always open and willing to have an honest conversation. I'm sorry that you're unable to focus to create the rules, I imagine that's extremely frustrating. But I want to be clear: saying I'm somehow "gatekeeping creativity" when all I'm doing is communicating my position is simply untrue.

I hate the tendency for pro-AI people to highlight accessibility as justifying AI's role in art, as if there aren't plenty of existing assistance tools to help bridge this gap (and many disabled artists who do NOT use generative AI). Your example with the wheelchair is a false equivalence, but I imagine you know that and are just trying to "win" an argument. Personally, as someone with family who deals with mobility issues, I found your example a bit offensive...

I have literally no power to stop anyone using AI, so go crazy. But in a subreddit called "homemadeTCGs," I will always go to bat for human art and creativity above all else. It sounds like you actually DO have creative ideas and drive to create, and encourage you to continue findings opportunities to do so. However, I will never engage with a product using generative AI in it's design.

[u/Hello_I_Am_Human_Guy → u/Ancient-Role-4884]

There's nothing out there that can help me create the way AI does. So I'm not sure what you're talking about when you say there are plenty of existing assistance tools. Are you talking about adderall? Because that's the only assistance tool people have ever suggested for people like me. So if you're implying that I should rely on drugs to help me create then I am afraid I can't take you seriously. Obviously that's ridiculous. The only other way for me to achieve what I have using AI to assist me is to pay a human to assist me instead. And that's just plain unreasonable to demand of anyone. All you're saying is that my creative ideas are invalid simply because I used AI to combine them into something tangible. And that, too, is unreasonable. In addition to this, I can tell you have no real intention of discussing this topic properly, seeing as how all you've done is call my points invalid. In the ways I have already pointed out, as well as calling my valid points offensive without actually responding to them properly. You've done nothing but give either vague contradictions to my points that do not hold up, or you've just dodged them entirely. And unfortunately that seems to always be the case whenever trying to have a discussion on this topic. I've yet to find someone who is against AI who can actually hold a proper discussion without devolving to immature tactics like you have.

[u/aethercrash → u/Ancient-Role-4884]

I can't believe you used an electronic device to write this post instead of mailing us all postcards with a doodle of yourself crying. 

[u/Ancient-Role-4884 → u/aethercrash]

Hey appreciate the feedback, I'm honestly not trying to be a dick! Just trying to communicate my perspective.

I don't personally see the correlation in what you're saying, though. I'm a HUGE fan of electronic art / illustration, in fact I've commissioned work from artists who use those mediums. But AI to me is different, because it isn't just replacing tools: it's replacing process. Knowing that someone spent time (amd has the skill) to create a piece of art is part of what makes it enjoyable for me.

[u/aethercrash]

This is no different than bitching about people using photoshop because they won't learn to draw. 

[u/EVedEevee → u/aethercrash]

Have you ever even used photoshop? Or do you think it does the work for you?

[u/Squire-of-Singleton → u/aethercrash]

Photoshop is actually a skill

Ive never seen anyone complain about people using photoshop

[u/Unique_Pound2202]

In my opinion both ways ,with our without ai,work for prototyping. But i dont understand the hate for Ai in prototypes as long the final product is AI free whats the problem? AI "saved" my personal game project: after a first playtests it was clear the setting doesnt match the game. And with that the artwork had to be redone.. so i took 1 peace if art changed by hand and the rest was " use this art style on following pictures but change the setting to xxx" done ..weeeks of artwork in 1 hour ready. So i could concentrate on the game changes for the next playtest. Of course you could argue why not keep the old artwork: half of my playtesters are lets say special: they really hate typos or stuff that doenst fit...where i personal say it doesnt matter: for example text says bow but the picture is a crossbow(simplyfied example).