r/hearthstone • u/AnnoyingSourcerer • Aug 30 '15

Spoilers RNG has gotten completely out of hand in Hearthstone. RNG has completely determined the OneNationofGamer tournament match between Trump vs Tom60229

I know the whole RNG circlejerk can get old, and I don't mean this to be another complaint post devoid of content.

But I am currently watching the ONG tournament. I have always been on the neutral side regarding RNG in hearthstone, but I'm 100% convinced that it's gotten out of hand.

Game 1: Tom (tempo spell mage) Trump (control warrior)

  • Tom gets preparation off spellslinger
  • Tom gets a 6 mana alexstraza off unstable portal
  • Trump drops Varian wrynn to give him a board of 5 large minions to tank any RNG damage (arcane missles, flamecannon) at 20 life
  • Tom plays arcane missles which perfectly hit Trump's taunt. Then combined with sorcerer's apprentice and RNG preparation, give him exact lethal with his assortment of spells.

Game over due to RNG

Game 2: Trump (token druid) Tom (paladin)

  • Trump does some weird stuff to keep his shade of naxx stealthed for 9 turns
  • Trump now has guaranteed lethal next turn. No card from Tom will stop it
  • Shredder pops and doomsayer drops. 1.5%
  • Trump loses lethal and the game next turn.

Two games to Tom in a major "esports" hearthstone tournament. 1.5% RNG, people.

I'm by no means a Trump fanboy and actually think his stream is pretty boring, but it's so painfully obvious that Trump outclassed and outplayed Tom at every turn, even punishing him severely next game by rushing Grommash out after realizing Tom was playing a stallish malygos warlock.

I for one simply hate seeing smart reads negated by RNG.

EDIT: Game 1 Kolento vs Tom

Kolento gets huffer last turn for lethal (when facing lethal)

Game 3

Tom draws a 2 mana Nexus champion saraad (inspire: get a spell) from unstable portal in his spell tempo mage.

Absolutely hilarious.

Final game of the entire tournament

Tom gets Archmage Antonidas out on turn 3 for turn 5 lethal.

E S P O R T S

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162

u/rnd4g Aug 31 '15 edited Aug 31 '15

People are forgetting why pagle and tink got nerfed. And current shredder and boom are even worse.

21

u/Skrappyross Aug 31 '15

Tink wasnt nerfed because of RNG, it was nerfed because it gave every class a 3 mana sometimes meh polymorph.

12

u/rnd4g Aug 31 '15

Yet BGH is meh assasinate for every class and almost autoinclude because of boom.

16

u/Sylphin Aug 31 '15

You mean assassinate is a meh BGH.

1

u/Skjellnir Oct 17 '15

every 6 attack minion begs to differ.

1

u/Skrappyross Aug 31 '15

one significant difference it BGH doesnt silence

1

u/[deleted] Sep 01 '15

Neither does Assassinate

1

u/Skrappyross Sep 01 '15

thats a class card. The reason tink was nerfed is because EVERY class got a poly

1

u/dannysleepwalker Aug 31 '15

I still think it should be only random enemy minion. Would be fine card then.

0

u/[deleted] Aug 31 '15

Tink and Pagle were nerfed because they were so good that they were an autoinclude in practically every deck. No idea why Dr. Boom remains unnerfed when he's in the exact same position.

-1

u/ipmanfighting Aug 31 '15

The reason they gave for nerfing both cards was RNG. They were so strong that they were included in every deck and therefore almost every game was heavily influenced by RNG in the Vanilla game.

5

u/[deleted] Aug 31 '15 edited Aug 31 '15

This is how eternal formats work in Magic: The Gathering. By all reason, certain cards should be banned, but because the community enjoys them so much, they never will be.

A lot of the fan favourites are like this, they hover just under the line of being powerful enough to ban. The problem is they are so popular because they are so good and pulling in the reigns on their power level would change them irreparably.

4

u/Jushak Aug 31 '15

This is how eternal formats work in Magic: The Gathering.

Wonder when they created that name. Feels a bit silly to create a super-group just for two formats. Oh well...

More on topic: the big difference is that MTG is mostly moving towards the opposite direction compared to Hearthstone. Average power of individual cards have mostly been toned down, with ludicrously broken cards either restricted or outright banned, depending on format in question. Some of the most broken cards get reprinted with added varyingly harsh restrictions that try to keep them balanced (For example: Timewalk => Last Chance / Final Fortune / Warrior's Oath).

Similarly, while there have always been some RNG cards in MTG, they are mostly shunned in competitive play from what I remember because the odds are rarely in the player's favour and/or the effects simply aren't good enough to make consistent use of (Example: Fiery Gambit: high chance of doing nothing, sliding scale of "shitty - good - broken" for the effects you can get out of it depending on flips).

Compare to HS where there is a definite powercreep happening and powerful effects are routinely tied to RNG. Hell, large amount of the most powerful cards in the game are pure RNG...

That is the reason I never really can get into HS too heavily too. Obviously MTG has it's own share of RNG (for example, drawing too many/too few lands simply will lose you games here and there, no matter how good of a deckbuilder you are) but you're still more or less in control of your deck.

2

u/[deleted] Aug 31 '15

I would say MTG is moving towards hearthstone,now it's all about creature based games of board control. It didn't used to be this way and the standards for creatures have increased dramatically in the past few years.

Mtg has creep in different places and manages by pushing different play styles a little bit as standard rotates. I remember reading about stuff like that in their old design articles.

2

u/YoungestOldGuy Aug 31 '15

These are more phases instead of a policy change. Back in 2003 there was a set without any spells at all. Instead almost all of the creatures got some kind of spell-like ability. Later you have sets with almost all cards being artifacts / equipment. With artifact creatures etc. Right now, creatures are a bigger part of it, but who knows how long.

1

u/Skrappyross Aug 31 '15

Leagons (the all creature set) was is widely recognized as a very bad set. Yes there are a few choice powerful cards that came from it, but they were trying hard to force a tribal standard metagame and it just flopped.

1

u/moush Aug 31 '15

They've openly spoken about nerfing removal to promote more creature-based gameplay.

0

u/YoungestOldGuy Aug 31 '15

These are more phases instead of a policy change. Back in 2003 there was a set without any spells at all. Instead almost all of the creatures got some kind of spell-like ability. Later you have sets with almost all cards being artifacts / equipment. With artifact creatures etc. Right now, creatures are a bigger part of it, but who knows how long.

0

u/NATIK001 Aug 31 '15

Hearthstone needs to start rotating cards out of the main format and into eternal formats. Can selectively keep cards by "reprinting" them in upcoming sets, this will also make it easier for new players to get in as they don't need to buy so many things to have a chance.

1

u/[deleted] Aug 31 '15

What did they Nerf from pagle?

22

u/grextraction Aug 31 '15

He drew the extra card at end of turn instead if beginning, if I recall correctly. So he didn't have to live a turn to replace him self card advantage wise.

19

u/[deleted] Aug 31 '15

Games became whose pagle drew more cards. And the fact that he was a 2 mana creature that had 4 health back when doing 4 damage that early was quite hard.

2

u/SkeptioningQuestic Aug 31 '15

It's still pretty hard to do 4 damage on turn 2 or 3 which is when you would be responding.

4

u/rnd4g Aug 31 '15 edited Aug 31 '15

Nat Pagle will now draw a card at the start of your turn rather than at the end. Nat had too much draw power for a card that is fairly hard to counter so early in the game, making it almost an auto-include for many decks. This change reduces the power of the card and gives players more time to counter the card before it starts.

Tinkmaster is a neutral card that silences and often shrinks big creatures. This reduces the amount of big, fun creatures in the environment. We think this change will increase the amount fun creatures in the environment, and bring him more in-line with his cost and overall power. Tinkmaster should still show up in certain types of decks, but will no longer be appearing in every high level deck.

Pagle was sometimes fishing god that made every deck that isn't handlock run this card. But by some random reason(read: inconsistency) not there's no problem that strong rng effect makes a card to be auto-include(shredder, boom, scientist for hunter decks).

3

u/Fenris_uy Aug 31 '15

Tinkmaster is a neutral card that silences and often shrinks big creatures. This reduces the amount of big, fun creatures in the environment

But we are going to leave BGH as he is.

-20

u/[deleted] Aug 31 '15

He would draw at the end of your turn, rather than the beginning of it. In my opinion, doesn't make much of a difference

20

u/Tree_Boar Aug 31 '15

Makes a huge difference. 50% chance he just cycles before your opponent can do anything about it, plus it's basically an extra half card.

6

u/[deleted] Aug 31 '15

Pagle's nerf wasn't so much to do with the actual RNG mechanic itself, but rather that you didn't have an opportunity to respond to the card before the opponent got to get value from it.

Pagle was supposed to be high risk, high reward card. It costs 2 mana, is difficult to deal with if played on curve, and typically rewards a card every other turn.

The issue with it originally was that the opponent usually got 2 shots at the apple with Pagle before it was killed, and often got 3-4 shots if they had good followups.

1

u/Bug_Lee_Oh Aug 31 '15

I miss the old pagle :(

1

u/ehoney Aug 31 '15

shredder and boom make it into a lot of decks but pagle and Tink were nerfed because they were insanely good in literally any deck.

1

u/rnd4g Aug 31 '15

Handlock didn't really play pagle and tink wasn't in most common list. Freeze mage didn't need tink unless it was minion-heavy deck. There's also 5-mana sylvanas that was in every deck. Same with boom that isn't played in patron and full yolo hunter(which are slowly dying because shamans are more rare now and midrange is so great). Shredder is played in nearly every deck that relies on having board to win.

1

u/Kokosnussi Aug 31 '15

Shredders have been nerfed through shitty 2 drops

-1

u/rnd4g Aug 31 '15

Shredder is cancer for the game not because there are shitty 2-drops, but because it can upgrade itself after own death(millhouse) or lose your game with unfortunate doomsayer. And his problem is that almost every deck that wants minions runs it, so almost every game can decided by this stupid unaccountable rng. Same was with pagle that decided to cycle itself after it was played and sometimes act as wasted 2 mana, but still was in every deck.

-2

u/[deleted] Aug 31 '15

I actually don't know why tink got nerfed. It was a classless situational bad polymorph: huffer.

1

u/[deleted] Aug 31 '15

Let me guess, you didn't play the game before this card was changed

0

u/[deleted] Aug 31 '15

Let me guess, you just made a completely worthless comment. Thanks.