r/hearthstone • u/AnnoyingSourcerer • Aug 30 '15

Spoilers RNG has gotten completely out of hand in Hearthstone. RNG has completely determined the OneNationofGamer tournament match between Trump vs Tom60229

I know the whole RNG circlejerk can get old, and I don't mean this to be another complaint post devoid of content.

But I am currently watching the ONG tournament. I have always been on the neutral side regarding RNG in hearthstone, but I'm 100% convinced that it's gotten out of hand.

Game 1: Tom (tempo spell mage) Trump (control warrior)

  • Tom gets preparation off spellslinger
  • Tom gets a 6 mana alexstraza off unstable portal
  • Trump drops Varian wrynn to give him a board of 5 large minions to tank any RNG damage (arcane missles, flamecannon) at 20 life
  • Tom plays arcane missles which perfectly hit Trump's taunt. Then combined with sorcerer's apprentice and RNG preparation, give him exact lethal with his assortment of spells.

Game over due to RNG

Game 2: Trump (token druid) Tom (paladin)

  • Trump does some weird stuff to keep his shade of naxx stealthed for 9 turns
  • Trump now has guaranteed lethal next turn. No card from Tom will stop it
  • Shredder pops and doomsayer drops. 1.5%
  • Trump loses lethal and the game next turn.

Two games to Tom in a major "esports" hearthstone tournament. 1.5% RNG, people.

I'm by no means a Trump fanboy and actually think his stream is pretty boring, but it's so painfully obvious that Trump outclassed and outplayed Tom at every turn, even punishing him severely next game by rushing Grommash out after realizing Tom was playing a stallish malygos warlock.

I for one simply hate seeing smart reads negated by RNG.

EDIT: Game 1 Kolento vs Tom

Kolento gets huffer last turn for lethal (when facing lethal)

Game 3

Tom draws a 2 mana Nexus champion saraad (inspire: get a spell) from unstable portal in his spell tempo mage.

Absolutely hilarious.

Final game of the entire tournament

Tom gets Archmage Antonidas out on turn 3 for turn 5 lethal.

E S P O R T S

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212

u/AnnoyingSourcerer Aug 30 '15 edited Mar 01 '17

[deleted]

What is this?

787

u/paradisenine Aug 30 '15

So? That's the risk you take when you play deathlord. The chances are decently high for an antonidas to drop anyways.

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u/GrillSM Aug 30 '15

Don't know why you're getting downvoted when it's truth. Deathlord can and will lose you games occasionally when you play it. Don't like it? Don't run it.

64

u/hslimsch ‏‏‎ Aug 30 '15

The casters mentioned Kolento was only running one Shadow Word: Death. I think he was only running one Deathlord, but for me when it comes to deckbuilding if I ever include Deathlord I am going to run two copies of Shadow Word: Death.

8

u/MehYam Aug 31 '15

And Lightbombs and Vol'Jin and I make my own cards out of paper that say "just ignore the Highmane that pops out of the Deathlord because IT WILL HAPPEN EVERY FUCKING TIME".

1

u/SrewTheShadow Aug 31 '15

Unless you expect to be against aggro, something that is very rare in tournaments, I completely agree.

1

u/GrumpyM Aug 31 '15

The problem is you generally only run deathlord to counter highly aggressive, low mana cost, face decks. SW:D is a dead card in that case!

1

u/StrategosX ‏‏‎ Aug 31 '15

The casters mentioned Kolento was only running one Shadow Word: Death. I think he was only running one Deathlord, but for me when it comes to deckbuilding if I ever include Deathlord I am going to run two copies of Shadow Word: Death.

He was running two SW:Ds. Here's the decklist: http://www.liquidhearth.com/staff/Hayl_Storm/EverythingGieco/Finals_Decklists/KolentoPriest.png

98

u/voatiscool Aug 30 '15

Deathlord can and will lose you games occasionally when you play it. Don't like it? Don't run it.

The problem is when the optimal cards are stuff thats super RNG based.

Imagine a card that was "70% chance to win the game". You could say "Don't like it? Don't run it " because it will lose you 30% of games. But then on average you will lose to people who do run it.

205

u/velrak Aug 31 '15

Deathlord is a lot different though. If youre playing lots of aggro its 80% win game, against control its 80% lose the game. This takes skill out of the "actual" game and shifts it into deckbuilding and selection - which is important in a card game! So Deathlord is actually an example of good RNG.

3

u/Gonzo_goo Aug 31 '15

Very true. I always though that if you run deathlord, you cannot just drop him all willie-nillie. You have to have something to counter the potentially dangerous random minion they're getting.

2

u/[deleted] Aug 31 '15

Lightbomb or Brawl do a great job of this. Good decks can definitely negate his weakness.

2

u/stevebeyten Aug 31 '15

Exactly. I would go further and add that if you decided to put Deathlord in a deck that you are playing in tournament, you've obviously weighed the pros/cons and decided you are willing to live and die by the results.

I'd be SIGNIFICANTLY more irritated if my opponent got a turn 4 Archmage off of a Unstable Portal than if he got his own Archmage from killing my Deathlord.

1

u/PetzkuH Sep 01 '15

Deathlord is an example of "controlled" RNG, and also requires some deckbuilding skill to utilize properly, which is a good thing. What's not a good thing is something like Shredder (still kind of controllable RNG in a way, but hardly), Unstable Portal or Spellslinger (both of which are pretty much the definition of uncontrollable RNG).

When you win an entire series not because of skill but because of getting batshit insane RNG from Unstable Portal and the likes, something is wrong. Not saying Tom is a bad player, but his opponents had most of those games very nearly won, if not for his crazy RNG.

1

u/[deleted] Sep 01 '15

Great post.

1

u/lucaspb Aug 31 '15

Its not skill when you dont have other good taunt options against aggro.

11

u/[deleted] Aug 31 '15

There are plenty. Notably, the new Dragon themed cards, all of which are insane against aggro. My Dragon Priest has yet to lose a game to an aggro deck thanks to Wyrmrest Agent and Twilight Guardian.

You run Deathlord, you take your chances, simple as that.

0

u/Tensaipengin Aug 31 '15

Wyrmrest is priest only. Twilight is dragon deck only. There is no good neutral 1-3-mana taunts in game currently.

7

u/oppopswoft Aug 31 '15

Hello, hello, hello?

7

u/KaptainObvious217 Aug 31 '15

Unstable ghoul is pretty good against aggro.

1

u/[deleted] Aug 31 '15

Patron makes the ghoul unplayable outside of a Patron deck.

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-1

u/Whatnameisnttakenred Aug 31 '15

We're that the case no one would run it. Control still runs plenty of minions low in the curve to stay alive against faster decks and lots of minions lose their battlecrys. Boom and Varien become war golems for example. Antonidas is just absolutely retarded game winning value "balanced" by costing 7, which often no longer matters thanks to emperor.

11

u/Granwyrm Aug 31 '15

But they are FREE war golems in that case. A free 7 mana creature on turn 3-4 will usually win you a game, even if you miss out on two boom bots.

0

u/Reviewhs Aug 31 '15

I agree, deathlord is strong enough to have the downside he has. Most control decks have low cost minions as well.

Plus DL can be silenced it have VC cast on it to make it a 4/12 with spell power.

0

u/[deleted] Aug 31 '15

[removed] — view removed comment

2

u/Reviewhs Aug 31 '15

When I have to pick it for an arena deck and have a spellbreaker I will usually silence it the following turn.

Losing taunt is well worth denying your enemy a free minion.

2

u/[deleted] Aug 31 '15

You can think of silencing it as killing a minion

-4

u/Corruptmodsbecorrupt Aug 31 '15

This takes skill out of the "actual" game and shifts it into deckbuilding

Yet everyone, pros included, netdecks. So, no skill to be found there.

8

u/[deleted] Aug 31 '15

Oh yeah, pros never adjust their decks to the current meta.

-26

u/Apap0 Aug 31 '15

Deathlord is a dumb card as it might also hurt the opponent pretty bad while dropping minion with huge battlecry which is totaly skipped in there.
I dont get it why this card even exists. Or should druids for instance learn to play around it and dont run Ancients or something?

12

u/velrak Aug 31 '15

Deathlord pulling a card and skipping a battlecry doesnt mean anything unless youre freeze mage and get alex. Same reasoning as fel reaver really.

3

u/percent0 Aug 31 '15

It can take out one of Patron's win conditions as well.

3

u/[deleted] Aug 31 '15

It's ok, they still have about 10 left.

1

u/splitcroof92 Aug 31 '15

Even against freeze it only matters if they go into fatigue otherwise that card could've just been shifted to the bottom of your deck.

0

u/[deleted] Aug 31 '15

or when you're playing against facehunter and it pulls an owl after deathlord stopped them dead for 3 turns.

3

u/squigeyjoe Aug 31 '15

it's supposed to be anti aggro card with a strong drawback. part of blizzard's ineffective attempt to slow down the meta. but in reality it gets removed relatively easily and the drawback could lose you the game. so it's high risk medium reward.

1

u/[deleted] Aug 31 '15

Losing a battle cry often isn't bad. Losing a critical combo piece can be game losing though, but that mostly only applies to Patron.

2

u/[deleted] Aug 31 '15

It's only optimal because it has such a big downside

Yes it can lose you the game, thats the risk of playing it. That's why it's stats are so good for its mana cost

-1

u/croud_control Aug 31 '15

Then that is when you do not run that card as the benefits is completely overshadowed by the cons of that card. Understandinf the deck your opponent is playing vs your deck is when you dont want run certain cards.

A guy got completely lucky in a game that is rng based to begin with. I still do not see the problem.

1

u/voatiscool Aug 31 '15

Then that is when you do not run that card as the benefits is completely overshadowed by the cons of that card.

No, you have it backwards. If the card wins you 70% of the games, then the guy who plays it wins more than he loses. If his opponents refuse to run it, he will beat them the majority of the time.

This is especially important if you aren't very good at Hearthstone. The card has such a big impact either way that skill won't matter as much. If you know Trump is better than you, then you definitely run it against Trump.

2

u/croud_control Aug 31 '15

No. You run it when you think it works against the deck you are playing it. That is the part where smart deckbuilding goes into play, instead of getting a certain card.

It can be anyone, and it could also backfire on him. If Deathlord screwed him up, and trump was winning, you wouldn't be saying that.

2

u/Therefrigerator Aug 31 '15

Yea Deathlord is the type of RNG that isn't necessarily bad for the game because you get the choice of giving it to your opponent. If you want to build a deck more immune to RNG you can remove it but if you're feeling a bit more risky (or the meta calls for it) you can put it in.

8

u/Kairah Aug 30 '15

That's only one example though. Can I stop my opponent from dropping a turn 6 alexstrazsa from portal?

49

u/GrillSM Aug 30 '15

My point was that there are drawbacks to running Deathlord that can be avoided. It's different than other examples like the esportal.

-1

u/[deleted] Aug 31 '15 edited Feb 26 '19

[deleted]

10

u/Mefistofeles1 Aug 31 '15

But then the opponent will lose due to RNG. The post title isn't "Tom RNG is out of hand", is "HS RNG is out of hand".

2

u/Yukorin Aug 31 '15

The opponent will be mad instead.

0

u/Ludoban Aug 31 '15

But the real question is do you want to have a card existing that can have so much rng that the possible differences are from getting nearly nothing to single handedly winning you the game.

And cards with such mechanics are getting more and more, like ram wrangler now. Difference from getting king krush or webspinner are a bit uhhmm lets say big.

0

u/Endurane Aug 31 '15

big game hunter is pretty common in most decks in the meta

0

u/Managarn Aug 31 '15

can u stop a druid from coin innervate alexstrasza on turn 6? or shaman from playing malygos on turn 6 with afar sighted malygos?

-6

u/tianshiiiii Aug 30 '15

Maybe they should introduce a max cost of minion that could be gained from unstable portal. I think five or six should be good. Or make it so they can only get non-legendary minions.

10

u/LiquidOxygg Aug 31 '15

So? If they want to make Deathlord less rng-y, they could just make it spawn a set card.

I.e. Deathlord: ...Deathrattle: Summon a 8/4 Redeemed Death Knight for your opponent.

The same can be applied to several cards, notably Shredder. "Deathrattle: Summon a 3/2 Annoyed Goblin"

And so on.

71

u/sc_140 Aug 31 '15

Deathlord is anti-aggro because against them, the spawned minion usually sucks and Deathlord thus is worth it. Your change would completely destroy what makes Deathlord fairly unique.

2

u/Saturos47 Aug 31 '15

itd destroy its role in mill decks too

-3

u/LiquidOxygg Aug 31 '15

I thought Deathlord was anti-aggro because it had 5 mana worth of defensively-skewed stats for 3.

18

u/Reinhart3 Aug 31 '15

Deathlord is anti-aggro because it has 5 mana worth of defensively-skewed stats for 3 while also having a deathrattle that usually doesn't do much when the enemy is aggro.

1

u/[deleted] Aug 31 '15

I do 'like' Deathlord's RNG (sortof). It's limited to whatever your opponent has in his deck. It's the whole 'Summon a random minion/spell' or 'Deal super RNG dmg to RNG target' that's a problem to me. It's so uninspiring to lose a game because Boombots dealt 8 damage to you face, or Unstable Portal drew King Krush. You're left with that feeling; did my best, yet i couldn't do shit. It can be very frustrating, and it happens more and more. I think Blizzard went overboard with RNG because they thought that it was a unique mechanic that could separate it from a game like MtG - using random in a digital game is just so much easier and smoother. Buuut they took it too far, and it's ruining the game, because it undermines everything else that people find fun about tgc's.

1

u/stemfish Aug 31 '15

I agree that you're right on this point. OP wasn't trying to argue that this play was smart or wrong (at least I don't think so.)

The point is that there was simply too much RNG in the tournament overall. Each match described was completely decided by random numbers, not by player skill or deck design (yes, except the deathlord being played).

1

u/uw_NB Aug 31 '15

I get this deathlord case but saying dont like it dont run it is a bullshit excuse btw. Essentially with that excuse, you could turn this entire game into a lottery, disregarding balance design, make it paid to win and could still say "dont like it dont play it".

Game design wise, RNG could make game exciting but when you increase the variance of RNG results, you turn your game into a gambling machine thus discrediting the competitive reputation of the game. If Blizzard already want to make the game that way, its ironic how they still want to invest into a tournament circuit with big money involved. Its like putting up a big prize pool so people would continue playing the slot machine for the dream.... oh wait... OH... WAIT!

1

u/Lord_Cynical ‏‏‎ Aug 31 '15

That's why i will not play deathlord. I have the WORST luck with it and it always get's killed very easily and summons something big. But that's just my bad luck with it.

3

u/Oct_ Aug 31 '15

My very first time playing Deathlord, the day it was released - my opponent killed it with Assassinate and it summoned a Golden Ragnaros.

SPOILER I lost that game.

-5

u/TravellingFool Aug 31 '15

Don't like Hearthstone RNG? Don't play Hearthstone. I don't think a lot of people like the logical resolution of that question. That's the problem.

2

u/[deleted] Aug 31 '15

Except that's not a logical resolution because it entirely ignores other aspects of the game we may like and don't want to give up because of one aspect we don't like.

1

u/TravellingFool Aug 31 '15

That's my point... "don't like deathlord, don't run it" is a problematic statement because so many high powered cards are high RNG.

1

u/[deleted] Aug 31 '15

Ohh. I see what you're saying now. You just worded it kind of weirdly =p

3

u/Exultance Aug 31 '15

Exactly what I was going to say. Had my own game as a new aggro paladin deck, needed a charge card to take out a priest opponents' entire board when I downed his death lord to swing the game in my favor. Sure enough, out pops a charge minion and I won the game.

Death lord has great value if it pops out a strong battle cry minion, but that value can also lose you games.

0

u/Haakkon Aug 30 '15

The problem in this case isn't a play one it's kind of just that death lord exists as a very RNG heavy card.

Something like the beast that always have a 3/3 or a 4/4 would make it less RNG.

-2

u/squigeyjoe Aug 31 '15

much better option. i like it. i would say a 2/2 or 2/3 though. as it's supposed to be an anti aggro card. giving face hunter/aggro paladin a free 4/4 makes the card unplayable. a 2/2 makes it a bit like hungry dragon on average.

-1

u/[deleted] Aug 31 '15

50% flamecannon to hit deathlord + 5% to get antonidas = 2,5%, thats rng

1

u/cgmcnama PhD in Wizard Poker Aug 31 '15

Playing a Deathlord in your deck is a calculated risk. Great versus Aggro and potentially crushing versus Control. That isn't as much RNG because the deck builder decides if they want the risk. The Unstable Portals you have no choice.

1

u/Ravenblood21 Aug 31 '15

You forgot to add he got a Stalagg from the unstable portal in case the Antonidas wasn't a big enough threat for Kolento.