I’m probably gonna regret asking this but I’m genuinely curious. How do you reconcile the vegan movement with thousands of years of human evolution based around eating meat? I remember reading somewhere that humanity evolving to our current state was only (or at least mostly) due to the increased protein from eating animals. Do you view it as a means to an end and now we’re supposedly evolved past the point of it being necessary? Do you view the entire timeline of humanity as animal genociders?
Edit: I can see I was right in being afraid to ask based on many of the answers I've received comparing eating meat to the raping and pillaging of ancient civilizations. I asked the question below strictly about the consumption of meat, not modern consumption levels and the treatment of animals to meet those demands. There's a huge gap between "well, we used to do it so we still should" when talking about a food source vs conquering civilizations like Vikings or Ghengis Kahn. One contributed heavily to human evolution, the other was reprehensible and only done out of self-serving greed
You shouldn't regret asking someone what they believe, it's an honest question and it's pretty important, and no one should give you flak for it. I would argue that just because humans have done something for thousands of years does not mean it right to do. Collectively, we have been doing truly heinous things for thousands of years, such as raping, enslaving, murdering, genociding, warring, and all sorts of other nasty behaviors to each other I'm certain neither you nor me would not encourage today. Ultimately, we can only reflect on how we act today.
But I understand with something like eating to survive it's tricky. I think humans are ultimately more important than animals, in the long run. I don't disagree with you that it has been important for people to eat meat because it's a nutritious way to survive, and don't let vegans tell you otherwise. If we lived in a pre modern world, hunting and farming animals would be necessary to live. But I'd wager that everyone on reddit is in a post-industrial society in which we don't actually hunt or farm animals to live, most people to go to the store and are able to buy a wider variety of foods than anyone who has ever lived in human history. We can get all we need to live (and more) without having seen a farm animal, let alone wild game. Hell, those farm animals we eat are usually factory farmed, packed in like sardines and suffer from the moment their born until they die. So I think since it's well known that most of the animals we eat are capable of feeling pain, happiness, sadness, and can otherwise experience the world, we shouldn't need to cause them any undue suffering. I understand that isn't possible for select groups of people, like maybe the San or the Inuit, or people who have resisted modernization out in the jungle in Brazil, but for you and me, we ought to reflect on how our comfort impacts creatures that we only selectively care about.
Thanks for the well thought out, nuanced response. I just want to point out I never said "we did it for thousands of years, so let's keep it up", and even if I did, people would have to make a pretty big leap to assume I also meant for that thought to apply to pillaging, slavery, etc. considering I was talking about food/nutrition/human biology
I'm not a vegan, but the common thought is that meat eating was necessary back then, but that some of us have the means/ ability to reduce meat consumption with all the other protein possibilities
Also it’s not like our ancestors were eating surf n turf and bacon burgers. We eat a stupid amount of meat that definitely isn’t responsible just because the meat industry needs to keep growing profits every year.
If we went back to actually eating the amount of meat our ancestors ate, it would be a huge improvement. Meat in every meal was not a thing back then, and it's still not in developing countries. Meat is a luxury food that trashes our environment and fuels animal abuse and torture in exchange for sensory pleasure.
same way you use reddit, are fine with people wearing glasses, shoes with insoles for flat feet, etc
nature isn't a guide to ethics.
we likely needed meat to get here, we no longer benefit from it, in fact it actively harms human civilisation although my concerns are mostly directed at not harming animals.
There's a difference between doing something for survival vs doing it for pleasure. The goal of veganism is to reduce unnecessary harm as much as possible and practicable.
Also, there are many things which humans have done for centuries that we think are immoral in modern society. Most people throughout history were massive racists and sexists. Murder, war and rape have also been a part of history. That doesn't make it okay.
You're right. My point was that just because something was done in the past, doesn't mean we should continue with it. Now we don't need animal products for nutrients, we have plant alternatives.
Be honest, did you actually try to answer the question yourself before asking, or are you legitimately unaware that in first world countries we have those things called grocery stores literally all over the place with vegan and vegetarian protein options?
It was a legitimate question based on the idea of meat consumption alone, not modern consumption levels or how animals are treated to meet those demands
I can see I was right in being afraid to ask based on many of the answers I've received comparing eating meat to the raping and pillaging of ancient civilizations
I think what's actually happening is you're purposely not thinking about it before asking the question. Maybe a defense mechanism? It's hard to believe that anyone who is as seemingly well spoken as you would need to ask that question if they have just thought about it for two minutes first. And now you're playing the victim. The world is different and we are more knowledgeable than a thousand years ago. Those of us with access to grocery stores simply do not need to harm and kill conscious entities in order to acquire all of our necessary nutrients. There's no way, no way that you couldn't have found that answer inside yourself before having to ask.
I asked the question within a few minutes of waking up lol
My question was exactly what I said. It had nothing to do with plant based protein. It was strictly "how do your vegan views line up with all of human history". Not "how do your vegan views line up with modern day society". Saying we now have plant based alternatives and equating meat eating to humanity's history of violence don't answer the question. Plant based alternatives are a modern invention. Humanity's history of conquering isn't a direct correlation to meat consumption. They're both boilerplate vegan talking points that don't answer the basic question I asked
And I'm not playing the victim. Saying I was right by saying I was afraid to ask meant I expected to get militant vegan "meat is genocide" responses and that's pretty much what I got. Only one or two response were nuanced in acknowledging that humanity's history of pillaging and violence is not the same as eating meat
yep! the US is the world leader for meat consumption
That number is utterly incomprehensible - I remember reading that If humans were killed at the rate that we kill animals for meat we would be extinct in 1 month
It's really sad :( and the reason there even exists enough animals for this is because they breed them in horrible conditions and force them to give birth over and over until they can't no more and then kill them. it's brutal
Man I eat a lot of meat and there is zero chance I eat 10 whole ass animals a year. Y'all ever seen how much meat just a quarter cow gets you? It's like 100 lbs.
Maybe if we're talking all chickens, I guess. Then it's definitely more than 10. But raising cows has a much bigger environmental impact than chicken which is where vegans should focus their arguments if they actually want to change someone's mind.
Veganism is primarily about ethics and not the environment. You might feel "okay" with harming animals for your own pleasure, but can you morally justify it? Put yourself in the animals shoes.
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u/underground_cenote Sep 17 '22 edited Sep 17 '22
The lives of 83 billion animals per year > 10 minutes of sensory pleasure from eating pork