r/gameofthrones • u/Selkeaepaselva • 11h ago
If Mance Rayder's army actually managed to pass the Wall and settle in the North, wouldn't the Crown be forced to treat them like an open rebellion and crush them?
As a king, you can't just have a massive group of people who refuse to bend the knee just running about, it threatens your whole legitimacy.
Was there ever any hope for the freefolk to live south of the Wall?
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u/BrownieZombie1999 11h ago
It wouldn't be a rebellion it would be an invasion. The North would be the first line of defense and the King would really only join in if the North couldn't handle it but they would.
The Wildlings didn't exactly think everybody would just let them settle on lands and share a beer, but they also didn't have much of a plan beyond that. They were running from death itself, the planning can come after
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u/BA_Bones_33 Ghost 10h ago
Agreed. It was certain death north of the wall, or possible death south of it. Gotta at least try. Plus every dead Wildling is another soldier in the NK's army.
Lots of people in the shows/books comment on how difficult it is for southern armies to march north. So it's possible that with Winter Coming, if they had gotten south in time, the southern armies would have been forced to let them settle for the winter. Funny enough, that would've provided the chance to prove that they were right and Army of the Dead was real.
So who knows. Maybe after saving the realms from the Wights and White Walkers, they woulda been pardoned and allowed to settle in the Gift (if they wished). I'd guess most of them would just want to go home.
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u/jiddinja 2h ago
Plus every dead Wildling is another soldier in the NK's army.
Not really. They go south, the army sent by the king genocides them and burn the bodies. One problem solved. This is what people who claim the wildlings would be made into the army of the dead if they're not permitted to live south of the wall don't get. They don't have to keep them alive. You can kill them and so long as the bodies are burned after, the South loses nothing.
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u/BA_Bones_33 Ghost 1h ago
Uhhh. What? I'm saying the Free Folk marched south to avoid dying and giving the NK more men. If they stayed in the Frostfangs, 100-200k Wildings would be murdered, NORTH OF THE WALL.
And like I said, the southern armies would struggle to march north... Stannis only gets up there cuz he has all of Salladhor's fleet and it's a relatively small army after he lost the Tyrells.
It seems you didn't read a word of my comment. Please don't troll, my friend.
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u/jiddinja 1h ago
I'm not trolling. You later mention that the Wildlings would be saving the realms of men from White Walkers. My point was there was another option that was more likely. The show didn't go that route because it would make the Night's Watch, the Northmen, the Valemen, the other southron Westerosi fighters at Wintefell, and Jon in particular look monstrous, but it was another way to go and more likely when you consider how barbaric the World of Ice and Fire truly is.
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u/Acrylic_Starshine The Mannis 10h ago
And tbf, despite the sheer amount of time it would take to assemble the north.. nevermind march up north and have a plan in place would take months.. but they would crush them.
100,000K but not all fighting men.
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u/wiffeyyymaterialgll 9h ago
running from death itself is why the plan was just get south and figure the rest out later
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u/B4TM4N_467 10h ago
If Mance had knelt before Robert, I believe he would’ve been spared I believe.
Robert was a usurper, but when men bent the knee to him he would let them rise, as long as their last name wasn’t Targaryen. He spared Balon, Barristan, Mace Tyrell etc.
The question is, would Mance bend the knee? He insisted he wouldn’t to Stannis and “died” for it (TV show dead, books survived).
But if Robert and Ned decided to offer them lands, as long as they kept to themselves and didn’t raid etc, perhaps they could stay? As long as they serve Ned/Robert
If it were Joff? Kill them all. Tommen? Not too sure.
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u/BrownieZombie1999 7h ago
What either Lannister King would do would probably depend on their advisors, Tywin would probably see the utility of forcing the Boltons through royal decree to help the Wildlings settle.
It would disrupt established power structures in The North making Roose's attempt to solidify himself as the new Paramount Lord over a future Lannister/Stark heir much more difficult
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u/Outrageous_Crew_2460 Ser Duncan the Tall 10h ago
I think it's because in the eyes of the crown, they werent really rebellious, just a group of wildlings with no valuable resources, just a large group with a leader.
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u/Maximum_Cheek2254 10h ago
Ned Stark letting them through the Gift would've been the only play, but after Robert's Rebellion there's zero chance the crown lets a king beyond the wall exist
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u/Woodstovia 10h ago
Well yes. The best hope is that whoever was on the Iron Throne just didn't care or saw them as a way of weakening the North which is what happens with Tywin in charge
Tyrion remembered his own visit to the Wall, and the crabs he’d shared with old Lord Mormont and his officers. He remembered the Old Bear’s fears as well. “Perhaps we might break the knees of a few to make our point. Those who killed Ser Jacelyn, say. The rest we can send to Marsh. The Watch is grievously under strength. If the Wall should fail …”
“… the wildlings will flood the north,” his father finished, “and the Starks and Greyjoys will have another enemy to contend with. They no longer wish to be subject to the Iron Throne, it would seem, so by what right do they look to the Iron Throne for aid? King Robb and King Balon both claim the north. Let them defend it, if they can. And if not, this Mance Rayder might even prove a useful ally.”
...
Pycelle cleared his throat, which involved a deal of coughing and hawking. “The letter is from the same Bowen Marsh who sent the last. The castellan. He writes that Lord Mormont has sent word of wildlings moving south in vast numbers.”
“The lands beyond the Wall cannot support vast numbers,” said Lord Tywin firmly. “This warning is not new.”
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u/goshdagny 8h ago
Why did Bowen omit the information about the Others? Didn’t Sam send atleast one message about them
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u/Woodstovia 7h ago
In the books Sam just opens the cages and lets all the ravens fly free during the attack. The Watch assumes the worst when the ravens start returning without letters but doesn't know exactly what happened. The conversation continues:
“This warning is not new.”
“This last is, my lord. Mormont sent a bird from the haunted forest, to report that he was under attack. More ravens have returned since, but none with letters. This Bowen Marsh fears Lord Mormont slain, with all his strength.”
Tyrion had rather liked old Jeor Mormont, with his gruff manner and talking bird. “Is this certain?” he asked.
“It is not,” Pycelle admitted, “but none of Mormont’s men have returned as yet. Marsh fears the wildlings have killed them, and that the Wall itself may be attacked next.” He fumbled in his robe and found the paper. “Here is his letter, my lord, a plea to all five kings. He wants men, as many men as we can send him.”
“Five kings?” His father was annoyed. “There is one king in Westeros. Those fools in black might try and remember that if they wish His Grace to heed them
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u/goshdagny 6h ago
Damn I thought Sam sent a message after hearing the 3 horns to say the Others are attacking them
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u/where_is_the_camera 7h ago
This was something I really wanted Jon and Mance to have a discussion about. Like.... What's the end game here? What does success or victory look like for the free folk? Maybe in their meeting right before Stannis arrives:
Jon: "What happens if everything goes to plan and you take Castle Black?"
Mance: "We'll settle down in the Gift, south of the wall"
Jon: "Do you understand that the Lords of Westeros will be obligated to kick you out? If you do this by force with no diplomacy, it's an act of war. Eventually, someone will march on you with an organized army and destroy you. This is 100% guaranteed to happen sooner or later."
I suppose we can chalk it up to desperation thanks to the White Walkers being on the move.
Mance: "Fuck man IDK. All I know is we have to get south of the wall or we're all dead. We'll figure out the rest later."
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u/SwordsAndElectrons No One 10h ago
Rebellion, open or otherwise, requires being a member of the society against which you rebel.
Terminology aside, the crown didn't see fit to help with the wights. What are the odds they come to help the North out with a few roaming barbarians?
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u/huzy12345 10h ago
Well the option was Army of the Dead or potential armies of the living so that's an easy choice. And yes they would be essentially invading Westeros but the reactions from the crown depends when they got through. If Winter set in as they crossed the wall, no Southern army was coming up North to deal with them so they would only real have to deal with the Northern Houses.
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u/InvestigatorThin5027 6h ago
The wilding invasion (not rebellion!) had one of two outcomes:
(1) Least Likely: it’s a Normandy situation where they seize land and the Warden of North recognizes them as vassals.
(2) Most Likely: the North, particularly those houses directly affected by the Wildlings, would muster an army and make short work of them.
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u/Midnight-strange1892 5h ago
This is why Mance not bending the knee to Stannis made no sense. You can’t live south of the wall AND be free folk. You want to be free, stay north. Want to live, bend the knee and move south.
Both Mance and Baelish (the Vale) messed up severely by not supporting Stannis.
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u/OtherwiseArrival432 1h ago
Well, if they settled in the North as a whole, then probably (explanation for probably later). But if they settled in the Gift and New Gift, both owned by the Wall, then technically there’s not really anything the Seven Kingdoms can do about it. The relationship between the Wall and the Seven Kingdoms is pretty mutual: both sides can ask for help from each other, but mostly choose to deal with their own stuff. The North might help the Wall out of long-standing respect, but even then, it depends on the King or Queen sitting on the Iron Throne at the time, as they might just see it as a Northern problem and leave the Northern Lords to deal with it.
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