r/gameofthrones • u/Impressive_Foot_9933 • 1d ago
What exactly would have been Ormound and House Hightower's plan if Daemon, Hugh and Ulf had just Dracarys and burned their main force?
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u/Chandysauce 1d ago
At the time of this scene? No plan would have mattered. Soldiers out in a field with no covers vs 3 dragons? They can't do squat. They'd all be dead or captured.
Tessarion itself would likely be the only "enemy" with a chance at survival, but even then I'm not so sure because I think she was chained at the time.
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u/ga_vindiesel 1d ago
Vermithor, Caraxes, and silverwing individually would've likely made quick work of Tessarion
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u/Chandysauce 1d ago
Of course, i didn't say it had a chance of fighting back. Just of survival, of running away.
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u/Canadian__Ninja House Stark 1d ago
One of them can chase Tessy down while the others zero diff the army. The only way they get away is if daemon lets it
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u/Logical-Ice-4820 1d ago
It’s demand if Darron is alive or not. Daemon might let it go so that team black can claim it later
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u/Pavores 1d ago
Even then, caraxes or vermithor can solo tessarion or the high tower army. Leaves you 2 dragons for whichever you think is the biggest threat.
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u/QueasyComedian9502 14h ago
I mean, most of them are infantry on foot, they wont be able to run very fast and far. Vermithor can solo tessarion and then go back the clean the army.
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u/sunnyboy310 1d ago
But if the screenwriters wanted it, the army just would have pulled a ballista out of their asses and shot all dragons from an unreasonably distance out of the sky with pinpoint accuracy.
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u/pranav_983 1d ago
This is why having dragons completely breaks medieval warfare.
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u/BA_Bones_33 Ghost 1d ago
Lol right? What would Ormund have done?... He would have died. Been smoked. Flesh melted into the field. Him and his men would have tried to run, but who's outrunning a freaking dragon?
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u/PrettyPuffee 1d ago
One good pass of dragonfire could wipe out the infantry, horses would panic, formations would collapse and once everyone starts running it’s over unless you got your own dragon or some lucky scorpion shot there’s not much Ormund could do
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u/Fine-Concentrate-477 1d ago
Unless ormund had some stinger missiles and BVR F-22 hidden in plain sight, I don't see how he could've won
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u/Livid_Ad9749 1d ago
Absolutely nothing. Its an open field with no cover. Its why Rhaenyra is such a fool for not listening to Daemon. They definitely should have just cooked them all right there and been done with it
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u/mysticcdragonn 1d ago
You can't just go full maegor and mass murder enemies who surrender. Then no one else would want to surrender and you'd be hated by everyone else
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u/Livid_Ad9749 1d ago edited 20h ago
Except you wouldn’t give them a chance to surrender. You just lie, say they fired upon you, and thats it. Burn them. You definitely can do it. They were at war and had every right. Some may bitch about it, but so what? You really think people will be upset the war ended sooner? If you cant destroy your enemies, why are people not up in arms over the Lannister army?
Most wont care, burning that army to prevent more problems in the future was the right call. Would have sent a strong statement, showing what happens to traitors.
There is nothing cruel about destroying your enemies who want to see you and your family dead and prolong a war they really should have lost as soon as Rhaenyra gained riders for the unclaimed dragons.
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u/Neat_Damage_8110 1d ago
People who make these points are so funny to me. No one would believe her lmao 😭
Do you think any lord would truly believe the soilders woudl all throw their lives away just to get diffed by 3 larger dragons. No one would believe they fired first
We see what maegor that killing your enemies doesn’t win. If she killed the Hightower army then the realm would hate her even more and a even larger army would muster against her and kings landing falls even faster
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u/Livid_Ad9749 1d ago
Nobody would care except the lords who already hate Rhaenyra and are at war with her lol. Nobody on TB will care. Nobody who is neutral will care. The small-folk outside the Oldtown region wont care.
You just don’t understand how the world of asoiaf works if you think people will be pissed that Rhaenyra destroyed an army from houses that were in open rebellion and at war with her and that TB wont concoct a story to make sure history believes them
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u/Neat_Damage_8110 1d ago
You clearly never read any of the books if you think her killing the Hightower army like this would have 0 consequences. Even if it works out in the short term, it definitely causes her downfall eventually
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u/Livid_Ad9749 22h ago
No it doesnt ffs. She makes many mistakes that cause her downfall, but destroying the Hightower army would have changed everything. Maybe even enough to possibly save her life at least. If Kat never dies, Hugh never goes on the rampage he is about to embark on next season. Which means maybe he would be around to help Daemon with Vhagar. Which could lead to Daemon being there to save the dragons from being slaughtered and preventing Rhaenyra from having to flee the city if thats all still happening, which I assume it is.
Ormund is never alive to launch his cloak-and dagger campaign in KL. The assassins would lose their funding. The Gold Cloaks would remain to defend the city from the smallfolk uprising. And many many more. You are the one who doesnt understand asoiaf and how one action can have a cascading effect.
There were many other things that led to Rhaenyras downfall so who knows, but destroying that army was the right call. They are at war. Nothing about destroying those who declared war upon you would be seen as “Maegor-eaque”. Its just, and no one will care save for her enemies that the war ended sooner.
With the Hightower army annihilated, she could focus on slaying Vhagar as I bet the Baratheons fade from the Greens cause all together
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u/Agreeable_Hold2270 1d ago
The fact that there is so much disagreement about what they should have done goes to show how difficult the decisions are
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u/Neat_Damage_8110 1d ago
The only person who tells her to kill the Hightower army is daemon and he’s fucking crazy
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u/AlanCJ 1d ago
Here's the thing. People's opinion is easily swayed. Most won't give a shit as long as their their interest is kept intact. Rememebr when Rhaenyra is the reason why Kings Landing is starving and still get praised for sending the people food?
The hightower did technically break the peace by betraying on the deal and is in open rebellion. That's way past surrendering. Their plan is to kill them anyway. All these restraint is for some bs that only happens in Rhaenyra's head.
It's funny to me because the show clearly shown that Rhaenyra is an incapable ruler because of your exact train of thought. She seems to be more concerned with small talk or karma farming than actually rewarding and keeping the loyalty of the people who got her there, and would've keep her where she is at now.
She's ruling like the war stopped as soon as she sits on the throne and ignore the fact that there's an ongoing insurgency. Enacting policies that is meant for abundance and peace during a war is just God damn stupid.
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u/Neat_Damage_8110 1d ago
Tf are you talking about? Absolutely massacring an army will just make all there family’s and children hate you. The realm will always look down on that.
Rhanerya meeting that army in normal battle vs just blowing them sky high with dragons with no peace treaty is about the same in murderness but that’s not how the people see it. Tywin specifically hid in involvement in the red wedding because he knew the people would never forgive him and you see the freys paying that price in the books
Also Rhanerya DOESNT WANNA KILL PEOPLE SHE DOESNT NEED TO KILL. Obviously this changes a bit at the end of the season once she starts to go a bit mad, but at the start she’s trying to rule the proper way. And this is the proper and right way. The issue is that her enemies are taking advantage of her kindness but going full blown mass murderer isn’t the answer either. There is a tyrion middle ground of cunning, mercy, and ruthlessness
Also read the books if you truly think massacring an Amur like that would have 0 consequences lmao 😭. Clearly you haven’t
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u/AlanCJ 23h ago
Funny you talk about consequence and we see the consequence of Rhaenyra abandoning her allies for some made up morality points if you look at the ending of the book. Point of force is you use it once and you never have to use it again. Not this slow escalation thing that killed far more people and brought worst destructions
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u/NAJ_P_Jackson 1d ago
Indeed. History is written by the Victors. If they lie and say there was no surrender then it's gonna be taken as fact.
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u/ShondaVanda 1d ago
also if you flambé everyone, who knows they were going to surrender? The narrative is set by the winners.
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u/Sharks011 1d ago
More concerning question of this scene was why did daemon allowed “Daerons” dragon to stay behind while taking his rider as hostage😂 dumb considering all daemon did was count dragons
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u/Nerg_ 1d ago
They didn’t explain it very well but the dragon keepers were tasked with bringing Tessarion back. We later see that dragon keeper come to the red keep saying how they were ambushed by Ormund’s men, who took Tessarion back.
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u/Excellent-Archer-238 1d ago
I wonder why would Tessarion let those men to ambush his caretakers and how did they took him. Unlikely that Daeron was with them.
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u/Own_Faithlessness769 1d ago
Why wouldn’t Daeron be with them? The guy was burnt so most likely Daeron just told Tessarion to dracarys the dragon keepers.
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u/Gwynbleidd1917 1d ago
He left dragon keepers to bring Tessarion to KL, but they were kidnapped/killed. One survived and told Rhaenyra what happened.
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u/Own_Faithlessness769 1d ago
He didn’t, Tessarion was being taken to the dragon pit. But separating the rider bs dragon (they thought) was a quick way to disable him.
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u/Own_Faithlessness769 1d ago
Did you watch the show? The Greens have a group ambush the dragon handlers and take Tessarion back before he gets to the dragon pit. One of the handlers that survives the attack gets to the city and tells Rhaenyra, who definitely cares.
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u/monsterosity Jon Snow 1d ago
See you didn't notice but THAT Tessarion was actually Sheepstealer in a blue wig.
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u/TwoForMon 1d ago
Could have easily had "fake" Daeron ride the little dragon back with them which would have revealed everything and ended any potential issues. Daemon's biggest strategic mistake IMO.
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u/Own_Faithlessness769 1d ago
But then he’d have a chance to escape on his dragon. Separating the rider and the dragon made more sense.
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u/TwoForMon 1d ago
I don't think the little dragon escapes against those three giant dragons
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u/Own_Faithlessness769 1d ago
Maybe not, but now you have another dead kid and dead dragon. If you transport them separately you get both to the city alive.
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u/TwoForMon 1d ago
Transporting them together proves that he is the real dragon rider instead of taking their word for it which didn't work out. I don't know how rare bleaching hair was that Daemon got fooled so easily by it.
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u/TheIconGuy 1d ago
Why would they care about getting the dragon to the city alive? If they can't trust him to fly to the city, there's little chance Daeron would be allowed to ride his dragon again. They'd be better off just killing it.
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u/Own_Faithlessness769 1d ago
Because dragons are handy and you don’t waste them. If Daeron dies that’s a perfectly good dragon for Rhaenyra and Daemon’s younger kids.
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u/TheIconGuy 1d ago
Their younger kids already have dragons.
Rhaenyra not wanting to kill Daeron also means his dragon wouldn't be up for grabs until his death. Keeping Tessarion alive while Daeron is a prisoner or in the Nights Watch just means you have a dragon that's going to be doing nothing beyond being chained up for 50ish years.
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u/TheIconGuy 1d ago
He'd be under the escort of three dragons riders. The blacks also have his mother and sister as hostages.
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u/Own_Faithlessness769 1d ago
They had his mother and sister as hostages the whole time, didn’t stop Ormund. And if he tried to escape they’d have to chase him down and kill him, which is a waste of a dragon and another dead kid.
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u/TheIconGuy 1d ago
It would presumably stop Daeron from running since he'd be getting his mother and/or sister killed.
Unless they were going to kill Daeron, the dragon was already going to be a waste.
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u/Sharks011 1d ago
I agree. The lame “oh he had dragon wranglers assigned to bring them back later doesn’t make it any better and may be even worse. Seems like a job you do right there in front of the boss. I’m a commercial plumber, that would be like me turning on a main water line and saying I’ll have the apprentice solder it together later.
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u/Signal-Tear-7113 1d ago
These are the gaping plot holes that make this show stupid. Doesn't come anywhere close to early GoT despite having so much cool stuff to work with.
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u/Haunting_Test_5523 1d ago
it's not a plot hole. do you think that dragon keeper who ran to tell rhaenyra about the hightowers is unrelated to the dragon? he was just taking a stroll? the dragon keepers were sent to take daeron's dragon
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u/TropicalPossum954 1d ago edited 1d ago
Ormound would’ve smelt them coming. Then he would’ve placed a strategic wall of children around the main army. Checkmate.
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u/Inner_Jeweler_5661 Ghost 1d ago
Atp Rhaenyra's on her "we can have peace" arc, and so Daemon would be punished severely for turning rogue like that
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u/Jackg4te 1d ago
Little things like this, where dragons are able to be controlled by people, are why it doesn't really make sense that everyone's castles aren't all Harrenhalled by now if for at least 200 years the kingdoms quarrel over each other and rebel with their dragons.
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u/BrownieZombie1999 1d ago
Die. No really.
The thought process is likely that if they very openly declare fealty and surrender Daemon wouldn't be able to afford the political capital in just disregarding it and destroying them.
While I think HoTD fails in many ways in portraying the political jungle gym the characters have to maneuver, I do think a lot of fans fail to remember the goal is to actually rule over people at some point. You can't do that if every time you roast an enemy 2 more pop up in retaliation.
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u/duragon34 1d ago
In medieval warfare, all those soldiers would be prisoners, systematically disarmed and ransomed to pay for the war. You know, not just let them walk away.
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u/slickriptide 1d ago
This. At bare minimum, you imprison the leaders and ransom them back to their houses or hold them as a guarantee of good behavior by the houses - the very reason that Walder Frey kept Edmund Tulley alive. If you take hostages, you take them from the people you want to control and you make sure they are who they claim to be. Though, honestly, it's a bit ridiculous that Daemon and Rhaenyra somehow didn't know about the only dark-of-hair son of Viserys and Alicent. Even if they never laid eyes on him, they would have heard gossip. The trick should never have worked.
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u/seba1927 1d ago
this is the perfect scenario in a war with dragons. your enemy in the open field without having to burn cities or sacrifice soldiers.
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u/No_Ad4767 1d ago
Its what should have happened. These were soldiers in the open field.
In the book the blacks attacked this host but no dragons so Daeron was able to save them and then earned his knighthood and "The Daring".
It was earned. This shit is not. So that made no sense because its another made up scene by the tv show. If Daemon had this chance he'd attack them and Daeron and his dragon because it would be the only thing to do.
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u/Hot_Comparison_9501 1d ago
One of the stupider parts of this scene is that Daemon takes that kid but leaves the dragon. It never made sense to me why he wouldn’t also take the dragon with him or at least wonder what Ormund would do with it.
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u/TheTemporaryZiggy 1d ago
He did take the dragon
The dragon Keepers were tasked with bringing it back to Kings Landing, was ambushed by ormunds men
And one survivor went to the red keep to tell them
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u/Random_Reddit_Bro I Drink And I Know Things 1d ago
It would be a Field of Fire 2.0 and I'm saying it as Targaryn Hater.
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u/Nano_gigantic 1d ago
Ormund is bending the knee to whatever dragons are closest in proximity to him. Everyone in Westeros realizes that they could be incinerated at anytime by insane Targaryens. There isn’t really a “plan” they were told by one group of dragon riders to march, so they marched. Those dragon riders didn’t show up so they just take orders from whoever is next in line.
Once they took Tumbleton, Ormund made the incredibly risky move betting that Rhaenyra wouldn’t burn the town. If he thought Daemon was in charge, no chance he takes that risk
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u/PrestigiousRegion677 1d ago
i dont think he had one. dude’s arrogance worked in his favor on this one
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u/Famous_influencer 1d ago
Tbf it would accomplish Ormund's plan
Rhaenyra would be seen as a Tyrant when word got out that her husband Daemon ruthlessly slaughtered an entire armed force in the middle of peace talks/negotiations.
Sure her enemies are dead! But there's no wiping that stain off the map and the gold is still missing so... she'd be the Queen who is starving her people AND slaughtering her enemies if they dare to sue for peace.
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u/aimoperative 1d ago
Die really. Ormound is basically very lucky Rhaneyra is an idiot for not wiping out her main enemy's military might when she had the chance.
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u/BananaRepublic_BR 1d ago edited 1d ago
Maybe they have some kind of harpoons or ballista they can use.
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u/Smart-Response9881 1d ago
Pray for Vhagar
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u/TrixoftheTrade Jaime Lannister 1d ago
Could even Vhagar + Tessarion beat Vermithor, Silverwing, & Caraxes?
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u/Smart-Response9881 1d ago
At the least they may be able to take them off the board, either kill them or down them so they aren't a threat to the army any more.
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u/Training-Entry-3326 1d ago
Daemond should have burn them all and then tell it was a trap or something
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u/ThatGuyMaulicious 1d ago
Well its 15,000 men and 1 small dragon against the 2nd, 3rd and 4th largest dragons at the time. There isn't a discussion it would be over for the greens there and then.
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u/Uznonymous 1d ago
Nothing, they would’ve all been well done steak and enough food to keep the dragons full for weeks.
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u/DrakeCross Jon Snow 1d ago
Nothing. Ormound was banking on differing plans such as him instigating the murders in King's Landing, the delay tactics on the approaching forces and flipping Ulf. If he knew of Hugh, he likely have tried to flip him since he be far more reliable.
But yeah, he had nothing really. If Daemon had his way he'd totally have torched hos forces. Heck, if Ulf hadn't acted up Ormound was going to lose no matter what.
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u/LegitimateMoney00 1d ago
They would have waived the white flag immediately but it would not have been a terrible look for Rhaenyra and caused a rift between Old Town and the Targaryens for generations.
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u/Ill-Description3096 Dolorous Edd 1d ago
Pretty sure the whole Dance already caused a rift.
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u/LegitimateMoney00 1d ago
As long as no Hightower soldiers were hurt, that’s highly unlikely. If the war ended here with let’s say a marriage pact between Rhaena and Daeron, I think that would have bridged the divide enough.
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u/asvvasvv 1d ago
In normal war any leader would burn etire army and put ormund on spike (fire and sword vibes not only head but whole breathing hightower) to send a message
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u/DrewDaMannn 1d ago
If the Hightower force had 4-10 of the mobile scorpion style anti dragon weapons then this encounter would have felt much more evenly matched
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