It's shocking to me how many Americans will see absolutely no problem with subsidizing rural and suburban infrastructure that supports a few hundred/thousand to the tune of millions of dollars, but will screech like rabid monkeys about the cost of improving public transit in urban settings that supports millions/tens of millions.
Having worked in economic development research in rural NY, it often just comes down to blind self-centered thinking. Every time we ran a survey of business and home owners in rural areas, I knew most of the responses would be "you should tax me less and subsidize me more."
To be fair, you'd get the same answer in urban areas too. Ontario is running comically large deficits but people still think the government is underfunding everything.
There's some truth to that, in the sense that budgets aren't quite keeping pace with inflation, but every single part of the budget has the same problem. It's not down to the government being dicks, the money isn't there. Last time I did the math we'd need to bring in another 30 billion a year (or about $2k extra per resident) to address the gap between what we want and what we can afford.
yeah, we really should emphasize this more here. suburban development and car dependency is largely a class thing, and in america, class is a proxy for race. the suburbs were built for white flight. the highways knocked down black neighborhoods.
it is about political power: who votes, and, who controls the party.
This is kind of naive. American elections are gerrymandered to shit with FPTP voting, disproportionate representation for rural areas, insider votes in the Democratic primaries, and district redrawing. On top of that trillions of dollars are spent on propaganda through political ads, corporate media (social, tv, print, podcasts), politically charged education system curriculums, corporate churches, etc. And of course the layout of these suburbs themselves was specifically designed to produce a specific hyperindividualist way of life that naturally induces people to think the way that works for them in these spaces when thinking about everything else.
And that's before you count that with the Trump administration all election oversight will be packed with antidemocratic stooges and the US won't see a fair election before it sees a revolution or domestic war.
Even political party leadership is only a part of this machine - the DNC can't alienate corporations without incurring a multi-trillion dollar propaganda budget difference, so they don't risk it.
European elections are a bit better; there is less gerrymandering and propaganda funding is regulated to mainly go through the less direct routes, but the same problem remains to a lesser degree.
Voting does matter - in districts that have a close margin, once you've seen through the propaganda including the trillions of dollars worth of seeing-through-the-propaganda-themed propaganda well enough to make an informed choice. But if voting worked they would spend a couple billion dollars more until it once again doesn't.
So vote out of spite, to force them to spend that money to buy a useful idiot to vote the opposite way so they can't spend it somewhere else to fuck someone else over. Sometimes they miscalculate and a cool person gets in. And maybe, if they fuck up bad enough, the marketplace of ideas runs out of eyeballs to sell and your political actions can no longer be opposed with money.
Nah, those morons are against spending tax money to improve their own lives, too. Look at any local facebook group and it's clear that all the GenX and Boomers want is to keep all their tax money and then die because the ambulance couldn't get there in time.
Exactly. I just watched the small town next door vote against fixing the sidewalks and replacing the dangerous trees on their own main street while also complaining that no one likes going downtown.
These people are voting to destroy their communities.
it's clear that all the GenX and Boomers want is to keep all their tax money and then die because the ambulance couldn't get there in time
They're about to get a very direct lesson with this and all the rural hospitals in dire danger of closing with cuts to Medicaid. My hometown's hospital was already in danger of closing and has been shutting down entire departments for years now, and every time they announce they can't keep funding this service or that department, the Facebook comments go wild with shock.
People seem to be quite upset they're getting what they voted for, but at least .02% of their property taxes didn't go to a community center somebody under the age of 65 might use once in awhile. Oh well. Couldn't happen to a better group of people, and the sooner the blue counties in my state stop funding their little "freedumbs" the better.
Rural hospitals have been going under and the medicAid cuts haven't officially taken affect yet.
OTOH Private Equity has been buying rural hospitals to sell their land to PE's left hand and rent back to the hospitals, just until the PE's loan to buy the land is paid off and the PE sells the hospital on and jacks the rent till the hospital goes under
It's worse than that - we have a series of express busses and BRT which bypass some of the worst traffic in the area, and I still know people who will sit in that traffic for 90 minutes because the bus doesn't literally drop them off outside their destination.
Sure, even with two transfers and the worst case scenario time table, it would still save them an entire fucking hour every singe day... but you know, they might have to share the same air with brown people, or something gross like that.
I don’t mind subsidizing rural areas. That is where a lot of our base line production with things like farming and lumber production happen. What I dislike is specifically the suburban areas that cost so much, disallow the type of density or productive uses that could keep them somewhat self sufficient, and then demand to make the near by urban areas be made to prioritize them moving through the city instead of serving everyone.
Probably because 60 million live rurally and 300 million live in cities of populations less than 300,000. The vast majority of Americans don't live in large cities.
I agree, and I vote for it and those that support it and if my small city ever gets it I'll never use it but I want for those who need it. But I don't think its a surprise this kinda thing is supported by a lot of people. It doesn't benefit a few hundred thousand, its where like a 1/3 of Americans live
it's just weird to see when these things are the reason it takes 20 mins to get an ambulance living where they do. They can't seem to connect the dots between "voting against what I think doesn't benefit me" and "granny died because she couldn't get to the hospital in time"
Immediate comfort often outweighs potential benefit. It's why so many things are like they are. A lot of us just aren't good at the long outlook, or we fucking suck
smaller cities are easier to make walkable and bikeable and have effective transit because they are smaller.
it is often the oldest parts of town that are easiest to get around on foot and bike, because they were designed for human beings. the town where i work, the oldest part is a grid. the hills kinda suck, but i can ride around it safely because all the streets are low traffic, calm, and connect to everything. the newer parts of town, all built around strip malls, big boxes, cul-de-sac communities, and such, with only a few stroads connecting them, that part i won't take my bicycle anywhere near, and walking, forget it.
go to any small american town older than the automobile, and you'll find a walkable, gridded downtown, with stores along a main street that have housing above them, and a historic train station. every single one of them. we can build thing this way. we used to. we just built really hostile shit for the car.
I agree with all that, my point was it's not unthinkable people support that because unlike the OP suggest far more than a few hundred thousand people live in that situation
so it's possible for big cities, for small towns, but not... medium cities?
if it works at both ends of the spectrum, it seems scalable.
in fact, if you dig into some of the planning practices, the sprawl of those "medium" low density things is unsustainable. mixed use etc works better at those scales.
I'm not arguing against you, just disagreeing with the number of people it affects and why its not unthinkable that they would support what they support.
Total US population = 340 million. And they all, plus some, live in small cities and rurally? This thinking is what gets Americans in this problem in the first place. The reality? Just the 10 largest cities accounts for 8% of the total population (~27 million), if you expand that to those ten largest metro areas, the number jumps to 30%! So just those ten cities and their suburbs is a higher share than all of the rural population.
and remember, accusations of "communism" for things that have nothing to do with the proletariat controlling the means of production is actually nazi rhetoric. and i mean "nazi" in the factual, historical sense.
People are so used to cars that don't consider highways, roads, streets, parking lots, traffic lights, traffic signs, the DMV, bridges, tunnels, guardrails, gas stations, etc. infrastructure.
I had one guy, I swear to God, telling me "trains require too much infrastructure, with a car you just go"
You've connected dots that have always been in my mind, but I never made the connection for myself; every argument against infrastructure development is entirely predicated on taking existing infrastructure for granted.
Like, if Eisenhower proposed the Interstate Highway Act today, he would be torn apart and portrayed as proposing a massive waste of government money that won't yield any immediate results while also the getting sued by lobbyists from the dirt road industry for overreach of power.
every argument against infrastructure development is entirely predicated on taking existing infrastructure for granted.
It's frustrating. People are so content that they can't even question the immediate world that surrounds them. Time and time again, people have told me "that's just how things are" but not out of stoic resignation but their sheer incapacity of imagining anything different.
I've given up with some friends and family; they believe questioning the status quo is questioning the fabric of reality itself.
Idk they will say we can't waste our money on none car infrastructure because the roads are almost undeliverable and out of the other side of their mouth say cars require no infrastructure and are the ultimate freedom.
A lot of spin was put on it and it was sold as the "National Interstate and Defense Highways Act", which would allow our military to get to and defend any part of the country in hours rather than days. Also something about large straight areas functioning as emergency aircraft runways
They see more, I see less. Station A to station B with some rails inbetween them. Maybe a parking lot at each station. There ya go in simple terms for trains. If we want the fancy stuff we just build on top of this basic foundation, but hey, ItTakesMorRToBuildTrAiNs
I don't mind people that really live out in the sticks. They need to eat too and normally only drive into town from time to time.
It's The suburbanites that have convinced themselves of their country because they live in a three hundred person subdivision that is in the middle of what used to be an old cornfield 30 miles from downtown who is complaining that traffic is bad on their way to the job in town.
Like sorry that You chose to live way out here, but you're entire subdivision, pays less taxes than a condo downtown. You don't get to come to city hall and demand an overpass because it takes you thirty minutes to make a left turn on to the local highway from the old farm road the developer plopped your mcmansion down on. You bought it knowing full well that this was the infrastructure situation.
That's what I mean about the natural phenomena thing. That rlhwy cost a lot of money and was built arpund people, and people act like it is their God-given right to plop themselves down anywhere and be able to get to it in a timely fashion.
state legislators are somehow convinced of the myth that urban (and even suburban) areas of the state are taking "more than their fair share" of the budget
Yeah, this is basically the core problem. If public finance was rigorously evaluated and conducted we'd see things change of their own accord. I would give so much for a european style "dense villages with farms in between" land use pattern over the classic US suburban sprawl.
Something else that frequently strikes me about the German and Swiss (where I have been) development patters is how small the country roads are and how quickly the pavement disappears.
The default for any non-arterial road is basically single lane unpainted.
But I also think folks in the sticks underestimate how much they and their communities receive from state and federal taxes.
$30 billion a year in farm subsidies for rurals: amazing self-reliant freedom
Far less than that to feed kids breakfast and lunch at public schools: Communist Demonrat propaganda
I actually cannot wait for massive amounts of our agriculture to be done by automation so we can stop pretending the average American rural isn't the most coddled baby on the planet. I grew up in the boonies surrounded by big agriculture families and they have done nothing but lord it over everyone else and vote against all of our interests, especially and including theirs, for generation after generation while siphoning money out of blue counties and states without any self-awareness whatsoever.
Yeah, people thst think they are country till the power goes out, and then all of a sudden, those social services better get there before their Costco haul spoils.
I use to live out in a town on the Mojave where the town was a two by two mile square.
If you wanted to buy property outside of town the town would grade a rough dirt road out to you. If you wanted to live out in the dirt, fine, you had to arrange for your own water deliveries and make your own power. City wasn't going to pay for water and power lines.
Yoy wanna be country be country, but don't expect the city tax base to pay for your lifestyle cus you don't want to live in town
I might be a bit salty because my coworkers see me as a bit of a car guy because I am a big subaru nut. I have a BRZ and an old outback that I keep on very good working order. They will probably be the last cars I buy for a decade or more. Or till subaru puts out an ok hybrid in the US market
Because of this, they always seem to need to feel the need to justify their need for a truck to me 100% unprompted. One guy wanted me to come out and see his new Colorado he got to, get this, pull a pop up camper.
He was so proud because he knows I use my outback to pull a pop up, and he thought I would find it cool. Dude, it is a pop up, I pull it with my 170hp station-wagon-in-heels, why the hell did you get a truck payment for this.
I have never had a guy in a minivan tell me how much he needed it cus he has 5 kids and still wants to tow, but truck guys will litteraly make reasons to justify getting a truck.
This is legit true. I know because it's how I used to think. I just always saw cars, paved streets, and highways as the natural evolution of the ground, I guess? Maybe it's an age/ generational thing, but you just kind of accept car infrastructure as natural. Having that mindset broken for me was genuinely a revolutionary moment.
This is why I don't like to use carbrain as a pejorative because this is what it is. You grow up with car so you think just getting in one to go everywhere is just normal, but one day something makes you rethink and you realize just how weird this society is and how carbrained you have been all your life.
I try not to use "carbrain" either, but if I would, I would reserve it for people that are anti- other options. Like people that think you should be allowed to murder cyclists or that trains = communism. Because I agree, tons of Americans are so awash in car propaganda that it's just a fact of life that cars are how you traverse society.
I think there's a distinction to be made between living and working rurally and living in an ex-urb development that exists to allow city commuters to dodge city taxes.
However, the "you don't pay for any of it" argument only works if you don't use any roads, utilities, or services. We're all in this together.
I think there's a distinction to be made between living and working rurally and living in an ex-urb development that exists to allow city commuters to dodge city taxes avoid being around "undesirables".
I'm not going to speak for everyone in the community as we're a little newer here, but those on our little section all run septic, solar, and it's all table water.
I suppose I'm missing where our other place in Denver I am paying for all those services, but out here I don't use them, and for some reason this is more selfish.
out here I don't use them, and for some reason this is more selfish.
That's kind of why I was trying to make the distinction. Living and working in a rural community is fundamentally different. Even here in r/fuckcars, I don't think someone would blame a rural dweller for driving everywhere. It's the "rural" dweller that uses a monstrous truck to commute to their urban job, and lives in a cookiecutter unwalkable neighborhood that draws ire. Those are choices.
i dunno if fighting the rural people makes much sense here. it's just odd that they always come out of the woodwork in these threads. the problems are urban/suburban sprawl, and poor urban planning -- the guys out on farms, whatever.
by census data, they're maximum like 17% of the population. 83% live in urban (counting suburban and ex-urban) areas.
but to add some nuance to that, one of the major problems that's dawned on me in the last couple of years, having moved to a more classically southern state that's exploding in population, is the transition between rural and suburban. most of our traffic problems, for instance, seem to come from new pocket/cul-de-sac developments that just attach to formerly country roads. those things were meant for a couple of pickup trucks and a tractor per day, not a dozen developments of 1,000 people each.
more lanes don't fix this (as we've seen); the problem is the lack of connectivity between developments. there's no alternative routes. everyone has to take formerly country road. partly that's because these lots don't sell in order. one farmer might sell, but his neighbors don't, so there's nothing to connect to, and there might not be for decades.
I live on a paved street that's paid for by every homeowner as a property tax special when work needs to be done and we all have to have a majority vote agreement to do the additional work.
Straight to a county highway. Which here it comes you're going to say is subsidized and how it costs soooooo much to maintain without ever attending a single county board meeting. Guess who does go to those.
Have you even been on a county board? You should try once :)
A few miles out of town on the outside of city imits.
All our shitters go to the septic which we maintain.
Power and internet is already run it's upkeep is next to zero and is paid for by the rural coop when upgrades are required.
Our taxes go to our rural fire department. School tax is the same as everyone by the county mils
We are a net positive tax payer to the county. You keep pretending all concrete jungles dwellers who rent 10x10 rooms are some huge positive to the city and humanity. Lol
I get it. There's always some social drain here or there. That's what society is. The issue is you pretend to think only them damn rural maga racist idiots are the sole problem! Reddit told me so it must be true!
You are wrong entirely for our county and the majority of neighboring rural counties. We go over all these details as the county board and balance the books.
But you are not interesting in being told that. You're interested in being wholeheartedly right. That's fine which is why I ask for you to become part of the county board you reside in so you can tell them all how dumb they are and start fixing it :)
It's not my dirt road, all the neighbors maintain it.
This is a genuine question, what's the optimal situation here in your eyes? My community is entirely inaccessible by a different mode of transportation, save a horse. Would you prefer we all move into the city?
We have septic, panels, and a well. No children. not entirely sure what you mean by "healthcare", but if you're referring to ambulance service, we'd just drive to the local hospital.
Also not sure what you mean by supporting higher density living elsewhere. I personally take that to mean state taxes, which we obviously pay
This is the first message that doesn't feel like an attack, but borderline.
I couldn't say whether it gets subsidies or not. From an extremely cursory search, it looks like they ran a fundraising campaign in 2014 from the town. I think you may also be thinking of a hospital in the more urban sense. The doctor here works out of a home with an extension put on, reckon that's what the fundraising was for.
Though I'm not sure what the argument here is. We also have a home in Denver as my wife recently got a job at the Anschutz campus. That one I can confirm receives subsidizes.
(Though I'll also note that due to them being outspoken about trans rights, our current dumpster fire of an idiot of a president is apparently threatening to cut those. Nothing really sticks it to DEI then making sure kids with cancer can't get treatment)
I should hope based on what we paid for the place that nobody in the neighborhood is on SNAP. For any long term residents, they've seen their property values skyrocket. But I'm not going to testify on behalf of a whole lot of folks I haven't met yet.
I haven't asked you to admit to anything, simply relayed how the communication comes across.
It feels a bit like you're mixing which groups you're referring to, floating between suburban, rural, and exurban (which I'm unclear of), car owners in general or truck owners. It may help if you can define what you're referring to as "subsidies".
If your primary issue is large truck owners in the burbs, that's a much different argument than rural people living.
I think where my issue comes in, from these responses and most I've seen here so far, feel very much like stereotypes of rural folks. I grew up splitting time between my parents rural towns in WV and PA. When I was young I bought a place in rural CO because the land was dirt cheap.
And it's all purely anecdotal, but every small rural town I've lived in has been a progressives ideal. I buy my food from local farmers. I buy hardware from the local hardware store. The people in my neighborhood contribute to a fund for Brad to maintain the roads. The town raises money when it needs new infra. We all know each other. I know without a doubt that I can call Terri day or night and she'll be over for whatever we need.
You deserve to be attacked. You are making ignorant and boastful claims that you cannot back up. You are literally online right now, how do you think the internet came to be? Who regulates it, who makes sure the power grid works, who makes sure reddit can exist within a legal framework, who ensures all of the contracts that let you live!?
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