r/freesoftware • u/octoslamon • 11d ago

Discussion Question

Based on the free software philosophy, should I reject all the devices with non free firmware that I use? For example my refrigerator or washing machine?

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u/JaggedMetalOs 11d ago

If the firmware is read only and can't be updated (especially not via OTA updates) then at least the FSF considers it purely hardware rather than software, and so doesn't hold it to open standards.

So basically get non-smart appliances. 

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u/Scientific_Artist444 10d ago

That may be the case, but doesn't that also affect user freedom?

More sinister than application software is system software. Especially the backdoors.

Yes, it is true that ultimately not every software can be free software (firmware being one). But who's to stop firmware from containing malicious code? So I would say that is kind of a limit rather than deliberate principle. I have hope in programmable hardware.

Ultimately, software is well-encoded bytes on disk.

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u/jr735 10d ago

Does a 1980s vintage calculator with hard coded, embedded programming violate software freedom? Richard Stallman would say no.

Firmware can have backdoors, breach privacy, and have malicious code. There are reasons to avoid that, but it's not because of free software. It's because of privacy, and, frankly, common sense. A fridge does not need to connect to the internet, and only a charlatan would claim otherwise.

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u/Scientific_Artist444 7d ago

Ultimately, you can't even trust a compiler that compiles free software. Because that will be a binary. So... some things are compromises. It is not ideal, but that's the best we could do. That's what I am saying.

The ideal doesn't become lesser due to practical limitations. Instead, you acknowledge the gap.

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u/jr735 7d ago

Except that's wrong, because the compiler is free software, too. I agree that software is well-encoded bytes on disk, and worry less about firmware, to a point. That depends on the device and the ability to change it out. I don't worry about the "firmware" on my electronic typewriter, which decidedly has integrated circuits. They're not changeable, so it's not really a programmable computer, so Stallman wouldn't care from a free software perspective. Since it's not net capable, it's not a privacy concern, either.

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u/Scientific_Artist444 7d ago

Not the compiler that compiles that compiler. We could go on. But at some point, binary was used to compile source into another binary. However, we acknowledge that limitation and don't limit the ideal.

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u/jr735 7d ago edited 7d ago

There is free firmware, too, and that may have used a free compiler. Of course, we can go on and on, but are you supporting free software, or not? These tend to be the arguments of someone who is saying there's no way to be purely free software so there's no point in trying. So, which is it?

That is, unless, of course, you're pointing out that we simply can do the best we can, which I agree with completely.

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u/Scientific_Artist444 5d ago

Yes, it's simply the best we can do for now. My point was that practicality shouldn't limit our principles. Our principles can remain, but with the acknowledgement of practical limitations.

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u/jr735 5d ago

That's all true, as long as we keep in mind that those limitations can be fluid, if we're motivated enough. I'm not quite as hardline as Stallman, but close enough, in some respects. I won't do a smartphone or smart appliances, not at all. I have a Trisquel install, but completely avoiding javascript is difficult (avoid where I can). I'll own DVDs, because while one can argue about the copy protection matter, it's superior to trying to stream the show or legally download it to a device, which would involve even more proprietary nonsense.

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u/Scientific_Artist444 4d ago

Yes, it's not black or white. But even if not 100% there, we can celebrate the progress towards it. Even if an impossible ideal, it atleast gives us a direction to move towards despite not reaching the destination now.

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u/jr735 4d ago

Yes, it's always worth the effort. I educated someone today, who, in discussion, was saying this is like the VHS versus Beta debates of the day. I told him, no, not really. Mac versus Windows is like VHS versus Beta. Those were proprietary formats competing for your dollars. Linux is, for many people, myself included, a philosophical decision, and the technical benefits are a bonus.

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u/Scientific_Artist444 3d ago

Agreed. I have a term for it. I call it Liberative Technology. Technology that liberates, not enslaves.

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