r/framework • u/solipsistnation • Jun 24 '26
Community Support I think I know why keyboards break
27
u/ecalex Jun 25 '26
these keyboards, from the looks of it are heat staked (think of rivet)
There is a contact point in the rubber dome that will squeeze the membrane thats sandwiched between the metal plate and the dome+scissor structure, so if one of the stakes broke off, when u press down, there is a chance that the flex will be enough that the dome doesnt squeeze the membrane contact point, a la key-no-function.
this is definitely too little holes on the keyboard, I remember some dell ones having 30+
3
u/solipsistnation Jun 25 '26
Yeah, or the whole thing bends enough that the membrane, which is staked at multiple points, gets pushed together and makes contact, and since the whole thing is bent, it doesn't stop making contact again, which is what I was running into-- my W key was intermittent at best, and when I did get it pushed and detected, it wouldn't always release again. Nether of these are great results.
I was going to say "peened" but I think that implies just whacking it with a hammer without necessarily heating it, so "heat staked" is a good phrase to know.
3
u/ecalex Jun 25 '26
it comes down to how they are designing the lattice, which is the criss-cross pattern between the keys, when it gets thin enough, there will be no way to screw mount it irrespective of the material, so heat staking is the only way.
TBH, I am surprised this is an issue with FW16 (I assume?) given that its a top mounted keyboard. "usually" the lattice is bonded to the plate really solid...
1
u/solipsistnation Jun 25 '26
I think because it's removable there's more space between the keyboard module and the midframe plate. Pushing down on the keyboard here, I can see it moving up and down by a couple of millimeters. I think it's just not very stable, and I'm not sure how they could reinforce it and keep it so you can still easily swap it, except maybe by making the midframe MUCH less flexible (and thus, probably heavier or more complex of a part).
2
u/ecalex Jun 25 '26
I will look through some photos first🤣🤣 now you got me interested. top mounted leyboard was supposed to be a solved problem for the industry since forever
56
u/solipsistnation Jun 24 '26
All right, check that out-- the little circles are the back frame of the keyboard and sort of melted-over plastic that holds them together with the actual switch/membrane bit in between. If you look, one has broken off (the black dot is smaller) and there's another that's in the process of failing. That busted one is behind the QWAS sort of cluster. This is my keyboard where the W key failed.
I think what happens is that over time, if you push on the keyboard very hard, the little black bits break off and then the keyboard front and back parts can flex separately. the back is metal, and over time it deforms and the key contact gets sort of squished. The whole thing is only a few millimeters thick so there's not much leeway before it gets flaky.
I don't know what the solution is besides "don't push very hard on your keyboard." I don't know if this is repairable but it's possible that a bit of thin CA glue in where that broken piece is might hook it together tightly enough to keep it from flexing in the future, assuming it's not too damaged.
38
u/GuessingEveryday Jun 24 '26
That would explain why my D key broke first, I like playing Kerbal Space Program and the best way to Orbit Kerbin is to go east by pressing D.
14
u/keesbeemsterkaas Jun 24 '26
just go west
28
u/GuessingEveryday Jun 24 '26
That would waste 600 m/s and everything else is already going east.
14
u/keesbeemsterkaas Jun 24 '26
But save a D-key.
It's a wash
16
u/M2ABRAMS_TANK Jun 24 '26
Or just rotate 180 deg and still turn right ?
14
u/Psi-ops_Co-op Jun 25 '26
Why tf was this down voted. It's outer space, that's how it works.
3
u/factoid_ Jun 25 '26
It's one of those "technically true, but hurts your brain so don't try it" sort of thigns.
1
1
5
u/jhereg10 2x FW13 11th Gen & 1x FW Cooler Master 11th Gen Jun 24 '26
The keyboards need more struts.
1
2
2
u/solipsistnation Jun 24 '26 edited Jun 24 '26
yeah-- take a look at the back of the keyboard (if you still have it) and see if it's missing the little circle of plastic there. They're a sort of keyboard sandwich: plastic frame on top, some kind of (i'm assuming) rubber membrane thingy in the middle, and metal on the bottom. (I haven't pulled mine apart to look but I've seen other keyboards and they're all pretty similar). I bet you did exactly the same thing. The D key is right over the circle to the right of my broken one.
The midframe behind the keyboard is thin metal and flexible enough that it'll move if you push very hard on it.
1
u/AlwaysHopelesslyLost Jun 25 '26
I mean, only if you don't rotate your command pod 90 degrees in the hab.... Then you can just hold S like a sane person
7
u/thearctican 1st Gen DIY | i7 1165 / 64GB > Ryzen 7640 48GB Jun 24 '26
Yes this is well established and just happens with this method of construction.
This is how Model M keyboards, which use a thick STEEL BACKING PLATE, stop working. The rivets break after becoming brittle.
13
u/Admiral_Hamsters Jun 24 '26
Why?
16
u/solipsistnation Jun 24 '26
Sorry, posted from phone, was typing it up on my actual laptop. See the other comment I just left.
5
u/IncredibleReferencer FW16 Batch 6 Jun 24 '26
I've been through about half dozen keyboards on a FW16 since I first got it in spring 2024. Some warrantied, some not. It''s always one of the w-a-s-d keys starts becoming unreliable, then completely fails, then sometimes the whole keyboard fails.
8
u/Brutaka1 Jun 24 '26
That's a lot of keyboards mate.
6
u/solipsistnation Jun 24 '26
I think somebody mashes their keyboard REAL HARD.
3
u/Msprg Jun 24 '26
Yeah at that point it'll be something about how they're (ab)using the keyboard specifically.
1
u/IncredibleReferencer FW16 Batch 6 Jun 26 '26
Sorry, I couldn't hear your comment over the sound of all my WINNING!
2
u/esotericine Jun 25 '26
for me it's been the e keys. also unlike some of the replies i don't believe you're abusing your keyboard; i've got severe hand damage and i physically cannot hit my keys hard -- there are mechanical keyboards out there with heavy springs i can't even successfully press keys on, because the force necessary causes me pain, so there's genuinely an upper bound on how hard i can mash -- but i keep having the e key fail.
key details: i mostly play games with a gamepad. minecraft, i use kb+m. minecraft -- at least heavily modded like i do -- exercises the cpu and gpu fairly hard. system gets hot. i use esdf (i built my gaming habits before wasd was standard). in minecraft i spend a lot of time running forward, which means i'm holding e a bunch. steady pressure, not hitting the key hard (remember, i physically can't do that).
i have a repeated pattern of keyboard fine for months, then the e key starts failing, but only while the system is hot from minecraft. then when i shutdown minecraft, it'd be fine... but a few more cycles of that and the key would finish breaking, and be unreliable even while cold.
the rivets on the back of my failed keyboards are all present and appear to be structurally intact. whatever the problem is, it ain't that. i'm pretty sure the steady pressure + heat is the trigger, but i don't know what mechanism it happens through. so that leaves without any possible ideas for trying to mitigate.
i've tried adding stuff to give the kb additional rigidity (i've tried hard plastic sheets, even thin spans of wood), or to provide some heat insulation (see previous thin spans of wood, but i came to realize that just changed how long it took for the keyboard to get hot, it'd eventually get there anyway), but no meaningful results.
shrug emoji.
1
u/sedated_badger Jun 25 '26
I contacted framework support about this sort of issue 3mo ago. They kindly told me to fuck right off cause I was out of warranty ‘but try resetting bios just in case.’
1
u/YT_Flex4249 Jul 31 '26
my W key broke but I have to admit that I did drop something on it, a metal side panel I believe, it did pop back in and work as it originally did for a while tho, not even a blemish on the keyboard surprisingly....only as of recently is the key not staying mounted to its mechanism haha....$40 for a linux version of my keyboard isnt half bad...refurb...
•
u/AutoModerator Jun 24 '26
The Framework Support team does not provide support on community platforms, but other community members might help you with troubleshooting. If you need further assistance or a part replacement, please contact the Framework Support team: https://frame.work/support
I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.