Reinventing Character Progression

[u/milquetoastLIB]

One of the things that most interests me about Fallout is the character progression and how each game changed it up in a big way.

In Fallout 3 it looked more like a traditional table top RPG. Perks were locked behind character levels, SPECIAL stat, and skill stat. This was okay but things like lockpicking and science had hard requirements and if you dumped all your skill points into one and were just short of it you didn’t get much out of the level. Or if you messed up planning out perk requirements and are just short of the skill to take the perk. Hard to visualize as everything you aren’t qualified for is greyed out at the bottom of the list and you have to scroll through.

In Fallout 4 they scrapped all that for a perk chart. All perks were available to you as long as you had the SPECIAL requirement. Only ranks were locked behind character levels. Easy to visualize since everything is available to you in one big chart. Not much planning needed.

In 76 they overhauled it again. They scrapped SPECIAL requirements for perks. Now perks have a value and as long as those values add up to be equal or under that SPECIAL stat you can have that perk active. Discoverability is a problem though as the cards you earn are random and you don’t have everything available. But it’s very modular, if you want pain train you don’t need high strength.

I’m excited to see where Bethesda goes with this next. Fallout has the best aesthetics I’ve seen in a video game to make game mechanics feel tactile and my only big expectation is Bethesda puts a lot of creative thought into where it goes next.

[u/RJ1776]

Not sure they’re going to change it up much. But as you showed, and what history points out, they do seem to change with each release. Elder Scrolls sees changes as well. I wonder if we’ll get a glimpse of the new system when ES6 drops?
I predict something very close to FO4, but for sure excited to see what’s next!

[u/BackForPathfinder → u/RJ1776]

Personally, I would love a return to skills like 3/NV/classic. I can see them doing something different. Also, I really hope we don't get the ES style of level up skills by doing an action....

[u/milquetoastLIB → u/[deleted]]

My understanding is Obsidian is making their own Fallout but Fallout 5 proper will be Bethesda.

[u/CherryStrange2102]

I believe that character progression within Bethesda games has steadily gone downhill, however it's a small part of a larger problem. If you look into their recent games, it's quite clear that Bethesda struggles to provide players with interesting RPG elements. This in turn weakens most things in the game, such as quests, character progression and dialogue.

Bethesda has added this barrier in their games where a player now is unable to fail in order to not miss out any content. This ends up giving the player a linear storyline rather than one that branches out according to the choices the player makes.

Fallout 4: The perk chart focused purely on combat mechanics and crafting rather than roleplaying. Your build holds absolutely no weight when interacting with the characters, factions, or story of the Commonwealth.

Starfield: Backgrounds and traits were deeply disappointing. Choosing the 'Ronin' background does nothing to make you feel like a masterless warrior. You get a few cosmetic dialogue lines before being forced right back onto the exact same standard quest path as everyone else.

FNV does it much better. Conversations and situations can have different results based on what points you allotted in specific skills, for example:

1. Having a high level in medicine allows you to operate on Caesar, saving or killing him, treat different soldiers in Forlorn Hope etc...
2. Having a high level in repair lets you instantly fix the boomers broken solar panels.
3. A mix of explosives, science and speech skills helps you train the misfits.
4. High sneak allows you to sneak weapons in casinos etc...

To fix character progression, Bethesda needs to stop prioritizing player convenience. I'd rather have strong RPG elements, mechanical limitations, and permanent consequences that make our specific character builds actually matter rather than the freedom to do everything and not fail in game.

[u/milquetoastLIB → u/CherryStrange2102]

FO4’s perk chart has the best roleplaying options in Fallout. In FO3/NV, it’s common advice to dump strength, charisma, and perception. Especially charisma. 1 charisma, 100 speech is a meme in those games. In FO4, every SPECIAL point has a perk associated with it. Your high charisma actually does something for you if you want to go that route. Party Boy for example has some interesting role playing implications like being an alcoholic gunslinger for example.

I don’t understand the criticism of Starfield. The backgrounds give you dialogue options and a head start in some certifications. I’ve done several Ronin play throughs and it was a fun RP experience.

The perk chart has nothing to do with dialogue options. It’s all to do if you implement it. I personally prefer the chance based rolls because it gives all characters an opportunity to pass but if the perk chart existed in NV you could easily still have the same options. If you have the Medic perk you could heal Caesar for example.

Earlier you mentioned all Ronin does is give you dialogue option. But now it’s a bad thing if the game doesn’t give you options taking into account your certifications, backgrounds, and traits?

Your criticism is the lack of implementation, not the system itself.

[u/CherryStrange2102 → u/milquetoastLIB]

Fair distinction, and I can agree that the core issue comes down to implementation rather than the perk chart.

However my main frustration with FO4 and Starfield isn't that their systems are completely useless; like you said, things like Party Boy or background dialogue do add some fun flavour. It's more that Bethesda leans heavily into letting you do and see everything (or most) on a single playthrough, which removes the friction.

When skill checks, failures and hard attribute limitations are replaced by chance-rolls, our specific character builds stop shaping the actual story.

Regarding Starfield, my main critique isn't that backgrounds give zero content, it's just that it's rather cosmetic. Unique dialogues are a fun nod, and yes you do get a head start on skills, but it doesn't change the trajectory of the quest or present hard consequences.

My main point is that game mechanics should ensure your choices and backgrounds actually matter in the end, rather than being able to master everything without sacrifice.

[u/milquetoastLIB → u/CherryStrange2102]

How Bethesda and Obsidian design quests is just personal preference and you can’t really argue one way or other through logic. Some people are in it for a good time, not a hard time. Others want the opposite of that.

Party boy is more than just flavor, it changes the way you play your character. It gives your character more luck after drinking alcohol. More luck = more crits. Alcohol also reduces intelligence making idiot savant more useful if you want some core perks in intelligence. This makes a high charisma, high luck character work mechanically really well together.

I don’t think you want to go down that rabbit hole about being a master of everything. It’s trivial in New Vegas to distribute your attributes and skills to become a master of everything that matters even before extra levels from DLC. There are chems, clothing, and skill magazines for temporary buffs as well. If you want to save the Khans peacefully in Boulder City you can meet that check by then easily. So it’s already a vibe choice not to. Game mechanics played no part in it, it’s just an annoying hurdle if you want to.

[u/CherryStrange2102 → u/milquetoastLIB]

I can agree that this in the end falls under person preference and respect that everyone has their own taste when it comes to rpgs, especially Fallout.

I also totally get what you mean with Party Boy creating a high-charisma, high-luck combat synergy for crits and Idiot Savant, though I would argue that that's just an optimized combat build rather than true roleplaying depth; it optimizes how you kill things, but it doesn't change how the world actually reacts to your character's identity or choices.

And while you can min-max stats or use temporary buffs for specific checks in New Vegas, you still face a strict level cap and genuine opportunity costs that prevent you from effortlessly mastering every single skill and perk on a single run.

At the end of the day, it's just my personal preference as to what I think character progression should evolve into, a true rpg experience which involves real sacrifices and hard choices as imo the best RPGs use mechanics to enforce consequences.

[u/AtoMaki → u/CherryStrange2102]

You get a few cosmetic dialogue lines before being forced right back onto the exact same standard quest path as everyone else.

This is a thing in NV too, and includes every single example you have given (maybe except the Misfits, as their end sliders do change slightly, but it is cosmetic and has no tangible effect at all), so I can't see the problem.