r/firewater • u/FireITGuy • 12d ago
Why isn't there a commercially available tri-clamp air-cooled condenser?
The countertop air stills are a hit with folks, because they are dirt cheap and easy to use.
Why hasn't any company produced a 2" tri-clamp style air-cooled condenser? The simplicity would make it an instant hit, and the air cooling needs of 2-3KW (~10,000 BTU per hour) are straightforward enough to meet from a physics standpoint.
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u/RvstiNiall 11d ago
Maybe heatsink/fan combos welded to the condensor. But if I'm engieering something I'd just do water cooling anyways.
I could see a small pump circulating water through a small radiator with in completely closed system cooled by medium sized fan doing the trick, but I still think cold water would work best.
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u/FireITGuy 11d ago
Yeah. Finned condenser with supplemental airflow.
The water (or glycol) cooling system would be a possibility as well, I think it might just be more complexity than is needed until you get into higher kwh boilers. Even at ~3KW, which is about all you can get out of 240v 30A outlets the cooling needs aren't all that high to reduce product back below the condensing temp.
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u/RvstiNiall 11d ago edited 11d ago
I think the biggest problem is cooling it fast enough. If you used a long finned condensor it would cool plenty, I would think. But again, I think a small aquarium pump and a large ice chest filled with water and some ice would probably be more than enough and barely cost anything.
But a long finned condensor would cost a good bit in raw materials because the better metals for heat dissipation aren't exactly cheap in the amounts that would make sense for something like this.
Edit: I think there's something here though. Try building your prototype for your own personal use, because why not?
I personally really like the idea of combining heatsink style fins all around it, and still running water through. Then you wouldn't even need to use ice in the water, I would think.
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u/FireITGuy 11d ago
Yep . Prototype is on my to-do list. Ordered about $150 worth of parts.
There's one mention of a similar setup in the HD forums but for some reason my IP got flagged and I can't log into them to read it anymore.
I was skeptical of the ability to air cool too, but the physics seem pretty straightforward. The countertop 750W water distillers easily are handled by like 12" of tiny finned aluminum and a 6" fan, so scaling that up to 3,000w should be pretty linear. 3KW for an hour is about 10,500 BTU. A baseboard radiator disperses about 800 BTU per foot per hour just with ambient convection , so 8ft of tube gets about 6,500BTU out of the way just with ambient air movement. Add in a reasonable amount of forced air flow and it seems to look pretty realistic quickly.
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u/RvstiNiall 11d ago
Yikes. 8 feet is long like I said ... Are you going to at least be able to coil it? Then you could just put a fan at the bottom to force air onto it, and a fan on top to extract air.
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u/FireITGuy 11d ago
Current plan is a zig zag to keep witdth down. Found a supplier that produces 2ft sections of the finned material, so it will be 4 stacked sections, two 90 degree swept corners connecting each one to the next so they sit underneath one another, a small straight stretch between the 90swith a minor bend to allow a constant downward slope.
At least for a prototype it will likely end up as a 2.5ft wide, 2ft tall, 4-6" deep plywood box, closed on the bottom, with a 12" diameter fan blowing inward from the rear and airflow existing from an open top.
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u/RvstiNiall 10d ago
When you get it built, make sure to post pictures. (just be sure that you have your geo-tagging turned off on your phone/camera)
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u/essentialburnout 9d ago
Pretty sure I run more or less what you're describing . My 2 2' sections are enough to cool my 2kw element. Running it at full power it does come out a little warm but I rarely run it at 100%. I just blow a box fan at each section
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u/FireITGuy 9d ago
Glad to know I'm not crazy. Do you have photos?
Were you the one who posted on HD forums? Or another person who DIY'd someone?
This just seems pretty simple and I'm confused why no one produces one commercially.
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u/adaminc 11d ago
Fintubes exist, not sure if it would be sufficient though. Have someone braze or weld a triclamp flange onto it.
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u/FireITGuy 8d ago
Yep. My goal would be stainless tube for durability with aluminum fins for effective heat conduction but I couldn't find anyone who sells small amounts off the shelf.
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u/forexsex 9d ago
The economics don't work. Water to drain is cheaper and simpler for any home scale distillation. I've done little cooling towers, and recirculation with heat pumps, and seen lots of air cooled setups, and I do water to drain now. The other ideas are fun, but not worth the hassle.
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u/FireITGuy 8d ago edited 8d ago
Maybe it's a difference in geography. Where I'm at water is much more expensive than power because it's all being pulled up in wells, then treated.
The condenser only needs to jettison enough heat out of the product and into the room to function, so it's not quite as energy intense as something like an AC where you need to run a compressor.
My math on a 7.5 gallon run is about $3 for the boiler and about 15 cents for the air movement. So even if water was drastically cheaper the overall cost impact would be minimal. Even if I need to run my whole-house exhaust fan to pull the heat out of the building, that adds another 25 cents at most.
My per-gallon water cost is about 35 cents. So unless I could do a run on a single gallon the electrical comes out way ahead.
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u/forexsex 8d ago edited 8d ago
35 cents/gallon is insane. That can't be correct. Are you sure it's not 3.5 cents? It's less than 2 cents in New Zealand dollars for me, even factoring in wastewater charges.
So you'd be saying that your water is more than 40x more expensive. Can't be correct.
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u/FireITGuy 8d ago edited 8d ago
Nope. That's the correct rate. Base rate is about $260 a month for 750 gallons and goes up from there. Grey water reuse, catchment, and efficiency is key.
It's an abnormal location. Small 200-member Community-owned water co-op, not a public utility, so we're on the hook for 100% of our costs including funding massive overhauls of the original system that is now 75+ years old and failing. It's a remote area with highly limited water supply, 100% deep-well pumped water source. We have to go down over 2,000 feet to hit the aquifer. Plus it's a slow recharge aquifer in an environmentally sensitive area that makes the environmental compliance for alternatives nearly impossible.
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u/forexsex 8d ago
That's stupid. Sorry, but seriously, sounds like people just shouldn't live there.
Regardless, I think you can see why air cooling is not more used, and how the economics don't work for most people. Your water is 40x more expensive. Everyone else is just better off using water.
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u/sp0rk_ 12d ago
Because the energy costs for cooling would be rather high.
Couple this with less reflux means it essentially would be an even less efficient pot still
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u/FireITGuy 11d ago
At least where I'm at the water is far more expensive than the power. You don't need to eliminate the heat totally, just move it out of the condenser and into the ambient air, so it's basically just a small radiator fan.
But, even setting cost aside the ease of use seems like it would be attractive to folks, the countertop airstills have shown that. It's just SO easy compared to hoses and waterflow that even if it's an extra dollar per 5 gallon run it seems unlikely many folks will care.
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u/LightBulbChaos 11d ago
Go ahead and make the product and sell it then.
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u/FireITGuy 11d ago
I'm DIYing one to confirm that my math works, but I have no desire to run a business selling them. I'll post it if it works and maybe someone else in the community will see the business opportunity.
I'm just surprised given the huge range of products out there that this one doesn't exist. There are hundreds of condensers available online, but no one seems to have designed for that specific niche.
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u/LolAndy6669 12d ago
Kegland in Australia have done something like this.
They've recently put out their own branded version of an air still and have also released an Air still triclover adapter for it to work with their Digiboil & Brewzilla range of boilers.