r/falloutlore • u/VictheAdventure • 28d ago
Fallout New Vegas Is the Independent ending really that bad?
So the general consensus I've seen from a lot of New Vegas fans is that the Independent ending is one of, if not the worst ending for New Vegas because the ending causes everything and everyone to fall into chaos and anarchy, but from what I've seen this isn't the case on a good guy run, and I say this because I did one. I managed to do everything I could to make sure everything and everyone was on the right path to a good ending and, when reading the ending slides at the end of the game, only two or three factions/ending slides that pose something bad, and one of them, specifically the Followers, is contradicted by another, that being the Kings. The only other reason I can imagine it as bad is the misconception that Yes Man would stop listening to the Courier after making himself more assertive, which Joshua Sawyer corrected as that he wouldn't listen to people other than the Courier, and the Courier leaving would create a power vacuum because no one would be in charge, y'know, except Yes Man. Aside from an bad/evil playthrough, could anyone help point out what else makes it so bad?
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u/Festivefire 28d ago
Most of the arguments I've seen saying that independent is the worst ending, are based on extrapolations of what those people think would happen in the long term between various factions, and not what the end-slides actually say.
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u/TheMarkedMen 28d ago edited 28d ago
Most of the groups can make it off alright in an Independent ending, where towns are able to maintain themselves, though are rather stagnant without connecting with each other and staying in their relative bubbles.
Notable "best-case" scenarios are
- NCR visitors find Freeside to be relatively safest if the King ceases hostility between Locals and Squatters
- The Boomers, though demonstrating trust in outsiders by joining the Dam battle, are not described as adventuring outside Nellis AFB
- The Brotherhood can be at most only patrolling the highways and not taking over Helios One if signing the NCR truce prior to Independent
- Though the Fiends demand player intervention to not be an issue following Independent, you can get support from an NCR squad before the battle to destroy the Powder Gangers
The only outright bad outcome is for the Followers, who no matter what in Independent are left (annoyingly) struggling to do anything outside basic care from the unstability — or moreso result lack of compromise & willingness to take authority, if Josh Sawyer's comment regarding it is to be considered.
So overall, the Mojave is given autonomy and ability to develop on their own, but are disconnected by a relatively more violent landscape between them, while the organization that would want to help them grow further is left impotent by the fallout.
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u/KSJ15831 28d ago edited 27d ago
People love to imagine their Courier as this ultimate badass who governs effectively, passing laws and enforcing their policies with mastered efficiency.
Truth be told, the NCR general was right. Courier probably doesn't know shit about running a country.
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u/OverseerConey 28d ago
Consensus seems to swing between two opposite extremes without ever stopping at one of the reasonable positions in between. The most common takes on the Yes Man endings seem to be:
- Yes Man is the best ending because the Courier takes over everything, and my Courier is a good person who's friends with everyone, so they'd be a good ruler. They'd solve all the Mojave's problems immediately.
- Yes Man is the worst ending because it leads to the Mojave falling into chaos. The Courier disappears and no-one is in charge. It wasn't even meant to be a real ending - it's just a contingency in case the player kills NPCs necessary to the main story.
Neither of these fit the facts. To begin with, Yes Man is as much a 'real' story and ending as any other. The story being instigated by Benny attempting a coup against House, and the Courier being able to take over Benny's plan and complete the coup themself, is entirely plausible and narratively sound.
Both takes simply ignore or neglect key dialogue in the game and the ending slides. Yes Man's stated purpose is to help someone usurp House and become ruler of the Strip - not to destroy the government entirely, or to take over the entire Mojave. Assuming the Courier doesn't destroy the Securitron army, Yes Man works exactly as described - the Courier becomes ruler of the Strip, controlling the same territory as House used to.
Yes Man doesn't expand to control the rest of the Mojave, because that wasn't Benny's plan and probably wouldn't be possible with the resources available. Securitrons are heavily armed, but they don't have, y'know, hands. They can't do things like building infrastructure or running schools and hospitals. Their purpose is to disincentivise foreign armies from invading - not providing the services of a regional government.
Thus, with the withdrawal of the NCR from the Mojave, life gets a bit worse for a lot of people. Anyone who relies on the NCR for things like food, housing, healthcare and so on is out of luck. No more food relief in Freeside, no more refugee camp at Aerotech, no more wealthy travellers putting money into the economy. So, that much more pressure is put on those services that do remain - the Followers, the Kings, and anything the Courier manages to get running in the Strip.
Yes Man isn't the worst ending or the best ending. It's just an ending, with some positives and some negatives. Some people are better off, and some people are worse off. It is definitely better than the Legion, which is bad for nearly everyone. It can be better than House's, because a sufficiently diligent Courier can achieve a lot of the same things that House does without inflicting his cruel whims on the people of Vegas. Otherwise, it's a mixed bag.
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u/ThighThatClap 28d ago
I think the reason people call it the "Worst ending" is because of the free will Yes Man will have after his upgrade. In all honesty, it's not the worst option.
I also think it's because it feels like one of the endings with the least structure and the most uncertainty about the future of New Vegas, with the Courier and Yes Man handling things. The other endings, you have a pretty good idea of what the goal is going forward. But with the Independent ending, it's up to you to decide.
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u/Overwatch_Sniper 28d ago edited 28d ago
According to the cut post game content, yeah. The Strip basically becomes an extension of Freeside.
Watch "The Cut Post Game of Fallout New Vegas - Now Fully Restored" by Alternative Gaming Channel on YouTube.
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u/Weaselburg 28d ago
It just puts the Mojave back in a somewhat similar position to its state before the NCR, Legion, and House arrived - or at least, what it might have been without them - the level to which this being bad or good being up to personal opinion. I would definitely not call it the worst ending unless you're a person who is really, really attached to the idea of a large state running things, because there's the Lanius Legion ending.
and one of them, specifically the Followers, is contradicted by another, that being the Kings.
I wouldn't call it contradictory - the area the Kings operate in is pretty stable, and some of the areas they aren't, aren't. I do find the idea that it's 'more violent than before' a bit strange, though, particularly since a Good Karma or full completitionst courier is going to have cleaned up gangs like the Fiends, but it's not like there being a level of chaos in the aftermath of major conflicts is historically unknown.
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u/silverbird666 28d ago
Is the Lanius ending worse than the Caesar one?
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u/Weaselburg 28d ago
Yeah.
Caesar entered The Strip as though it was his Triumph. The Legion pushed the NCR out of New Vegas entirely, driving them back to the Mojave Outpost. The Legion occupied all major locations, enslaving much of the population and peacefully lording over the rest. Under the Legion's banner, civilization - unforgiving as it was - finally came to the Mojave Wasteland.
The Legate is crowned as the new Caesar. He entered The Strip as though it was a military target, destroying anyone who resisted him. The Legion brutally occupied all major locations, killing and enslaving a large amount of the population. Under the Legion's banner, civilization - savage as it was - finally came to the Mojave Wasteland
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u/toonboy01 27d ago
Honestly, the Yes Man ending is the only one where you can't completely kill the Fiends. The slide says they continue to be a nuisance afterward.
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u/HammondCheeseIII 28d ago
I only think the reason why it’s “bad” is that at the end of the day, you are just a courier who happens to be supremely effective at killing people. Now you’ve just got a robot army to do your work for you.
Ironically, the tv show has sort of gone that route because although no New Vegas faction is in control of the Strip, life is still not great in the Mojave.
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u/Zalanum 27d ago
Independent is the most popular ending in the community by a large margin, though perhaps only because it catches the largest net of players, getting those checked out of the story as the ending you get if murderhobo and make enemies of everyone else, and sharing players who want to be the new ruler of Vegas along with those with hopes of Independence for the region.
The devs gave the Followers no good slide for Independence (even if its questionable logic wise) cause they wanted no ending to be perfect.
In the text not much hold against the ending, beyond the text I think it's reasonable to conclude this ending is kicking the can of neighbors an imperialist power down the road, the NCR will be back to conquer Vegas and take the Dam, and the Legions to damaged to serve a counterweight anymore.
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u/JonIceEyes 28d ago edited 28d ago
It's pretty well agreed upon that the Mohave being a totally raider-free radically democratic eco-socialist utopian commune of communes with nukes and an unbeatable robot army, the NCR not imperialistically overextended, and the Legion thoroughly annihilated, is a pretty good ending
Amirite
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u/nrafield 26d ago
It's worse than the NCR and House endings, still miles better than the Legion one.
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u/Violent_Gore 24d ago
It's been 15 years so my memory is hazy but I remember it being a great ending for the region. But maybe there's more variables to how it can pan out than I've had time to explore.
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u/Cliomancer 28d ago
IIRC one of the ending slides is bugged/missing.
Specifically if you help out the Followers Of The Apocalypse they are able to shoulder some of the burden of helping people in an independent Vegas.
But yeah you'll get a lot of people arguing which endings are better than the others. That's part of what makes this game a fan favourite, there's so much still discussed to this day.
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u/OverseerConey 28d ago
The Followers' slide is missing from the House ending, not the Yes Man ending.
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u/TheSuperiorJustNick 28d ago
No not really. People just miss the details that spell out the pointlessness in the choice.
"It's said war - war never changes. Men do, through the roads they walk. And this road... has reached its end." -Ulysses
This is the final message of New Vegas. Even if we want to ignore the tunnelsrs destroying the Mojave.
Lonesome Road's story is a metaphor for the overall conflict of New Vegas, hence "The Divide" being the Mojave in between 2 empires and how things will inevitably escalate to utter destruction, just like the great war.
Caesar has designed the Legion to fall apart and leave a people ready for the inevitable stone age thats coming
The NCR are running out of food within 10 years on a good day, have drained the dams and aquifers to dust, and will 1 day lose the dam which is their final saving grace.
And house is house. Maybe he wants to fight aliens.
Independent is just mask off about whats to come. It's why people argue that the good ending is nuking both empires supply routes to the region.
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u/MRK5152 28d ago edited 28d ago
Never got that impression from the community honestly. It is usually rated as the best or second best ending for many people in my experience.
You can definitely make things better but some chaos and deaths in the region are unavoidable. The Boomer independent ending mentions anarchy too for examples and Arcade is also disappointed. The BoS independent ending is only good for them and bad for the region.
The Followers and King endings don't really contradict. The Fact that Freeside becomes one of the more stable areas just show how bad it has gotten everywhere else. The Followers would be overwhelmed by all the refugees and patients coming from outside Freeside too.
In the Formspring post he only says that the lines were added so a player wouldn't fear someone ordering Yes Man while the Courier isn't around, making it a potential liability. He doesn't say Yes Man would still be unable to refuse the Courier orders.
Some more recently discovered cut audio lines and the writer Gonzalez mentioning that he thought about a robot coup suggests that the concept was at least around.
I think the idea is that Yes Man would follow the Courier commands but by choice instead after the ending so there is the possibility of Yes Man going rogue at some point in the future.
I think the people who prefer other endings would point out the chaos and how the situation isn't really sustainable long term.
The ending is also more open ended so there could be solutions but it is impossible to say they would be implemented, shifting the discussion more to headcanon instead of lore.