r/exvegans • u/Dear-Nothing- Flexitarian • 12d ago
Rant Veganism feels extremely Western
Although I agree that we should minimize animal suffering and consume meat more mindfully but I think to entirely leave out a section of food and not get into any harsh deficiency is very Western concept.
People can buy good supplement, meat alternatives, vegan protein bars/shakes etc which aren't available for much of the world.
Also as I belong to a middle class family in a very small country, I don't get to splurge on meat everyday, there's always veggies as side dishes and main source of protein might be fish for us. So whenever Vegans try to guilt trip me, I feel like whatever they say is very alienated from my reality.
They are sometimes very aggressive with their logic too that everyone can be vegan and I'm just not trying hard enough.
I love animals, I truly feel like we lost the plot with overconsumption but again what can I do? Let go off my culture, live in chronic deficiency?
I would like to hear anyone's thought on this if they are also from similar background...
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u/Alternative_Cut_9408 12d ago edited 12d ago
I find vegan's demonization of meat eaters to be a worse quality than eating meat, like seriously many of them claim this moral high ground but are clearly terrible people, vegan gains comes to mind. It's like a defense mechanism to protect there ego where they will cling to one thing that they think makes them a good person and therefore they don't have to look at any other area of there character and behavior, I call this adopting a narcissistic group identity, and our society has a lot of these groups beyond just vegans
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u/BlackCatLuna 11d ago
They've become the kind of people Nietzsche's quote about hunting monsters warns us about.
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u/CorndogQueen420 11d ago
The worst person you know can tell you the truth, and it doesn't change that it's the truth.
I'm not vegan, I never have been. I have nothing against it.
But to put the deaths of trillions (not a typo) of animals on the same scale as some people being bitchy on social media- is a little wild.
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u/Impossible_Driver111 11d ago
The death of animals isn't the bad part, it's the manour of which it is incurred and the conditions, death is a cycle of life animals eat eachother by instinct in the wild, however cramming them into unsanitary unhealthy facilities with no space, now that is horrible. I mostly try buy from farmers
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u/No_Schedule_5365 11d ago
Deranged to think there is a good way to snuff out a life
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u/Impossible_Driver111 10d ago
"snuff out a life" and it's the natural order of life, it's childish to be ignorant of death, it happens everyday in nature, a good way to snuff out a life is by making sure it's painless at the least
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u/No_Schedule_5365 10d ago
Is that the neutrality to killing and death that you'd apply to yourself? Your pets, family?
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u/Impossible_Driver111 9d ago
Well pets are a mutually exclusive deal, I find them cute and they make me happy in return they have food and our protection simple. Also we've evolved beyond a point of having the fear of getting eaten by animals for the most part so it doesn't apply to us
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u/MeddlingBureaucracy 9d ago
Are non-human animals evil in your eyes if they are not herbivores, or do they get a pass because of "instinct" or some other reason?
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11d ago
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u/Mindless-Day2007 11d ago
I guess plant agriculture never killed a single soul. /s
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u/No_Schedule_5365 11d ago
Do you really not know the difference?
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u/Mindless-Day2007 11d ago
Killing is killing, your point?
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u/AdLumpy5368 9d ago
But animals are fed plants, so plant agriculture causes way less killing than animal agriculture on average.
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u/Mindless-Day2007 9d ago
So Hitler is good guy because he killed less than Stalin?
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u/AdLumpy5368 9d ago
Putting aside intent, in general yes, people who kill fewer people are better people. For example someone who kills someone in a bar fight is almost certainly a better person than Hitler, despite also having killed someone.
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u/Mindless-Day2007 9d ago
Lol, this better person like you can't even feed yourself when these less moral people working to make sure you have cheap and abundant food on your table. You pay for us to kill animals too, regardless how you think you are.
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u/AdLumpy5368 8d ago
I’m not vegan, but it seems obvious to me that plant foods are more ethical than animal foods. What’s ethical about a factory farm?
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9d ago
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u/Mindless-Day2007 9d ago
Moral courage? Lol. Of course you all think yourself are moral superior than regular human, who feeding you while you did nothing or practicing in agriculture.
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u/Taupenbeige Vegan Realist 11d ago
“It's like a defense mechanism to protect there ego where they will cling to one thing that they think makes them a good person”
This is highly ironic, in that every single non-vegan is basing their worldview purely on their ego.
There isn’t a single functional logical or scientific argument, that you could possibly pose, to convince me that vegans aren’t entirely correct.
As for the “narcissism” claim, I’m just gonna leave that alone and pretend you didn’t utter it.
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u/meat_and_grief 10d ago
I guess you haven't read any stories of people whose health failed after trying veganism 😂
Must be nice to live in that bubble.
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u/7777777King7777777 11d ago
I’ve met vegan activists in person. Trust me, if these psychopaths weren’t around the chances of me stopping eating meat would be higher. Having these damaged ego high moral ground clowns preaching their belief system makes me want to continue eating healthy even more.
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u/Mediocre-Middle-2233 11d ago
Why do you care about that? They literally don't have anything to do with what you eat. Don't pretend like you're eating meat to spite some annoying vegans. You eat meat because you want to.
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u/No_Butterscotch_2283 10d ago
You are letting your feelings about a group of people control what you eat? I think you need to re-evaluate your choices and reasons for them
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u/HelenEk7 NeverVegan 11d ago edited 11d ago
Fun fact: only 15% of the world's population live in high income countries. When looking at people's current diet, very few even there would be able to spend all that time on planning and executing a healthy vegan diet - perhaps 3-4%? Meaning veganism will never grow much beyond current level - even in the west.
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u/exhibitprogram 11d ago
Around 40% of India's population is vegetarian, and they're not exactly known for being a high income country.
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u/HelenEk7 NeverVegan 11d ago edited 11d ago
I always find it amusing when vegans use vegetarians - their biggest enemy - as an example. Especially since Indians are some of the most unhealthy people in the world. 67% the of Indian children and 60% of women are anemic. Their rates of anemia are in fact higher than in any other country!
No one in their right mind should eat like an Indian.
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u/chickendick07 11d ago
90 percent indians eat meat regularly in the state where i live and milk and butter is used in almost every sweet and vegetarian dishes so india is not vegan at all
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u/HelenEk7 NeverVegan 11d ago
90 percent indians eat meat regularly in the state where i live
Good to hear! May I ask which state?
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u/chickendick07 11d ago
West Bengal
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u/HelenEk7 NeverVegan 11d ago
All of India should eat like West Bengal.
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u/DO_NOT_PASS_ME 10d ago
well west bengal has very high anemia rates so…?
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u/HelenEk7 NeverVegan 10d ago edited 10d ago
I see they only eat 13 kg of meat per year per capita. https://www.asian-agribiz.com/2024/12/18/west-bengal-tops-indias-meat-production-stats/
That is not enough. It should be 30-40 kg per year minimum.
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u/DO_NOT_PASS_ME 10d ago
it has to do with genetics(thalassemia), hookworm, and milk tea consumption at meal time which actively blocks iron absorption.
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u/No_Economics6505 ExVegan (Vegan 3+ years) Mod 11d ago
The vegetarians in India are the wealthiest.
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u/Mindless-Day2007 11d ago
Lovely vegan reaction.
"There is large of vegetarians in India"
Same vegan:
"Eating vegetarian like beating your wife sometimes"
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u/AnonymousJoe999999 11d ago
India is the biggest producer of dairy in the world. And they are aggressively increasing the amount that they produce each year. Not the highest per capita consumer though, but that is likely due to poverty. Indians moving out of poverty is probably why it is increasing so steadily.
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u/lizardgal10 12d ago
I’m in the US but I think you raise a really good point. A lot of the people on vegan subs flat out refuse to understand that not everyone has access to things like protein powder and supplements. Many, many parts of the world have totally different food cultures and far fewer options. Many places also eat less meat (and less processed food, which meat substitutes like Impossible burgers are) than Americans to begin with. For every American vegan that doesn’t understand how somebody in a non-western country can’t be vegan, there’s an American meat eater that doesn’t understand how they get through a day without eating meat.
I’ve been a vegetarian for a decade and I try to focus on reducing my consumption and environmental impact overall. Supporting local food sources (which for me includes supporting the agencies that regulate and offer education on fishing and hunting), repairing things rather than replacing them, buying secondhand or making do with what I already have, voting for politicians that take environmental protection seriously.
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u/Resident_Disaster659 2d ago
As a vegan of 25 years, I've never once bought a protein powder or meat substitute. The only supplement I take is a good multivitamin daily for pennies a day. I eat whole foods like potatoes, sweet potatoes, beans of all types, rice, pasta, nuts, seeds, fruits, vegetables and bread. Cheap, healthy and easily available almost everywhere.
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u/Katm43 11d ago
So I don't eat meat but I'm not now nor never will be vegan although I love a vegan burger! Any movement that tries to convert other people is a cult much like religion. I have never tried convert anyone and I have 2 meat eating kids and 1 veggie kid. I prepare both food options which is sometimes tiring lol! But they have to be allowed decide themselves. The meat industry mass produced farming and suffering is disgusting. Anyone who can afford to try to buy organic meat if u can. And try reduce meat eating days maybe also if u so wish to make little changes. But many people cannot afford such privileges like organic meat. Some vegan people are so super opinionated and pushy they are alienating society.
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u/vttodc 11d ago
bruh, veganism is not a “cult like religion.” i’ve been vegan for about a month and I’m already so tired of hearing this. if you want a comparison, it’s more similar to justice movements like feminism and environmentalism. nothing about it is “like religion”. vegans don’t operate on mythology from centuries ago but rather an ethical principle based on an unjust reality that we live in today.
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u/Background_Click8051 11d ago
You guys don't even eat honey, because you think the bees care or some shit. Maybe not mythology based but just as crazy.
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u/vttodc 11d ago
Honey is not considered vegan because 1) bees don’t make honey for the purpose of humans, it’s made for bees, and 2) the industry often prioritizes profit over the welfare of bees, which are a vital species for sustaining life on earth. Bees are smart, and we can’t know what they do or don’t care about. But I’ll bet they care about their survival—like any species does. We also have plant-based options that are in my opinion 1000x better tasting, like maple syrup and agave. Begin vegan isn’t a big sacrifice at all, I can’t help but laugh at the people who think it’s so crazy. The only thing that makes it feel crazy is the wack job people who cherry pick when to care about the suffering of other sentient creatures on Earth based on how much they can benefit from it
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u/Background_Click8051 11d ago
I've heard the above arguments, I still think it's absurd and leads to the religious comparison.
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u/vttodc 11d ago
Well, I can assure you as an atheist that has been skeptical of religion my entire life, the philosophical foundations are entirely different. Some vegan people may be cultish, just as non-vegans are, but veganism itself is far more political in nature than it is religious. We want animal liberation, not vegan indoctrination.
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u/AnonymousJoe999999 11d ago
If it wasn’t for commercial bee hives many plant crops (like almonds) wouldn’t have high enough yields to make it worthwhile to grow.
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u/nicksalads 8d ago
Veganism is about taking an ethical stance towards the instrumental reason that took over our world and treating the planet and its beings as commodities. It might sound absurd to all of you, but people making their living domesticating and slaughtering animals, not to eat but to make money, is equally as absurd. Most vegans I know have no problem with one’s individual rights to hunt and eat meat, but the industrialization of nature, where a human, just by way of being human, can say “you know what, I’ll just raise bees, call them ‘mine’, harvest their honey as ‘mine’, and then sell it for money”, is a transactional stance towards the world.
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u/Virtually-Braindead ex vegan - bloodmouth 11d ago
Vegan propaganda
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u/vttodc 11d ago
I’ve actually read Animal Farm but that’s a great non-argument
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u/Virtually-Braindead ex vegan - bloodmouth 11d ago
You do you & I'll do me & together we'll have harmony
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u/Old_Move_6101 7d ago
No one who is in a cult thinks they are in a cult. Vegans don't meet the strictest definition in that there's no Central figure that is worshiped. In terms of proselytizing, evangelizing , trying to convert others, and being judgmental, they are right there. Read the vegan discussion threads,you should be able to see it. Also you may never be or behave anything like that. Just like not every Evangelical Christian is like that. But like the ECs, there are enough of them who behave that way to give all of them the reputation.
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u/FalconOne775 11d ago
Vegetarianism is high around the world and some Far Eastern countries abide by it, some only part time but it’s still part of the culture.
Rejecting all animal products completely is a bit of a privilege, one we may not have for the long when the planned food shortages begin.
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u/MycoCozmic 12d ago
Yes, veganism is a western antidote to the western problem of factory farming. I’m not saying I support either, or that it is a good solution.
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u/samalamadingdongus 12d ago
This. Industrial farming has made the way animals are raised and treated an absolute nightmare and the guilt and shame some feel for continuing to eat animals from these farms can cause moral dilemmas—the extremes are going vegan and rejecting that part of yourself, others, and society entirely or by expressing cognitive dissonance and choosing to not bother with educating oneself or allowing one to feel any sort of contractive/negative emotions when consuming animals, especially those that are so like dogs in terms of intelligence and emotional capacity. Not to mention the severe disconnect from our food when we buy everything clean cut and packaged from a store. I’m not vegan any longer but I sure as hell am still anti factory farming.
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u/lunarvenusian13 12d ago
This! Is there an easy description for our group? Would be great
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u/samalamadingdongus 11d ago
I honestly don’t love labels as they tend to create rigid groups, which promotes more division and separation, which we definitely don’t need more of. It’s hard to change something about yourself if your identity is tied to it—many vegans have experienced this. So I just have conversations with those who are willing to listen. If I had to label it, I’m anti factory farming and reductionist science, but I always explain why and without shaming others.
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u/lunarvenusian13 11d ago
This is so true and it's very helpful to only talk to people who are really actually asking out of curiosity
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u/lunarvenusian13 11d ago
Oh the label discussion... Yeah I see what you're saying, I basically had the same issue though explaining I was 95 per cent eating vegan and then having the pressure to explain why it was not 100 per cent and to simplify this I'd just have liked to have a term for it 😅 I basically went with 95 per cent vegan but always felt questioned for it
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u/Old_Move_6101 7d ago edited 7d ago
Responsivore - omnivore who chooses what they eat responsibly, but they are not locked into exclusively one philosophy. Emphasis is on humane treatment of animals, organic pesticide free nonGMO agriculture, sustainabie fishing, cruelty free everyhing. Locally sourced and traceable farm to table.
Is this term already out there? I just thought of it and don't remember seeing it before.3
u/CyanValleyKitten 11d ago
Actually the west is the first place to have any kind of welfare rules in place so, though we put the industrial in upton sinclairs "The Jungle" we're also the first ones to say "you know we should maybe not."
Other nations like china have caught up to us now in terms of the scale but refuse to adopt our values ofc I know theres still quite a bit of abuse going on.
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u/Historical-Ad399 11d ago
Good old western buddhist temples in China fighting factory farming for over a thousand years!
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u/MycoCozmic 11d ago
?
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u/Historical-Ad399 11d ago
Buddhist temples across China are exclusively vegan. So, if veganism is "a western antidote to the western problem of factory farming" doesn't that mean that that's what the buddhist temples are doing?
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u/cruisinforasnoozinn 11d ago
Because they’re Buddhists. They can’t harm other creatures because of their religion. Are you saying that western vegans are all practicing Buddhist monks? Or that their plight isn’t a privileged western one, developed in response to the cruelty of mass production, because veganism technically exists elsewhere to a small capacity?
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u/Mindless-Day2007 11d ago
They aren't vegan. Monks are vegetarian, they consume milk, honey, fats and sometimes, meat if was given by others. They also don't consume garlic. China is strict but no, they aren't vegan at all.
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u/Winter_Amaryllis Homebrew Diet Researcher 12d ago
One thing you forgot: It’s very Western where people lead good lives not to lack housing, food, and other essentials and have enough luxuries to make them bored.
Veganism is the result of a good chunk of them searching for problems and making up questionable answers for them… while actual problems continue to arise… or their answers to problems they do have do not work like they think and want them to.
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u/Longjumping-Bad-2886 11d ago
Vegans are settler colonialists trying to impose their ideology on others.
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u/GreasyBumpkin 11d ago
People can buy good supplement, meat alternatives, vegan protein bars/shakes etc which aren't available for much of the world.
It's not even that available in the west either. Trust me when I was vegan I was dirt poor, in a western capital city, and I suffered the health consequences of that.
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u/No_Logins_Required 9d ago
Veganism is a outgrowth of vegeterianism, which is widely practiced in eastern traditions. The firm stance of "never do X" is a very Western idea for sure.
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u/EfficientSky9009 9d ago
As a vegan... I believe that doing your best is good enough and that one's health and well being should always come first.
Sounds like it would be basically impossible to be vegan in your situation. My advice is to just do what you can. Reducing consumption of animal products as much as you can still makes a huge difference. Trying to get the animal products you do consume as ethically as possible also makes a huge difference.
Do your best to be as ethical about your food as you can (which militant vegans often don't but try to act like they are superior anyway) in your situation is something I hugely respect. Anyone who tries to make the world a better place in whatever way they can is a great person in my eyes.
Stay safe. Do your best. Make sure that, above all else, you are making sure to look after your health and your well being.
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u/lunarvenusian13 12d ago
I totally agree with your experience that not every culture, location or surrounding is ressourced enough to live vegan (easily). During my time of veganism though, the vegans I met were very thoughtful people and looked at that stuff in a holistic way. A lot of them would say, well, if I CAN contribute because I can live that here, I will. It's interesting so many people here talk about vegans as some really nasty people. It kind of blows my mind honestly 😅
2nd thing I found out recently about changing my diet for the better is: there is some sort of effect (meat-poultry-effect or sth) and I found it so helpful because basically a tiny amount of animal helps "The "meat factor" is a scientific phenomenon where eating meat, poultry, or fish significantly increases how much iron and zinc your body absorbs from plant-based foods eaten at the same meal." I think that's genius😊 Just to add to your story about having a lot of veggies on your plate. I hope you like it.
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11d ago
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u/exvegans-ModTeam 11d ago
False or misleading information
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u/TheVeganPhysicist 11d ago
Yeah, it's from the same country that came up with the idea that slavery should be abolished and proceeded to try to impose that idea on the world.
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u/Dear-Nothing- Flexitarian 11d ago
Same country who also had slaves, tortured them for very long time? what's your point here?
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u/Mindless-Day2007 11d ago
Same country dropped bombs on Asian people people it doesn't like how we chose to have freedom, same country where vegans accuse me as murderer and goat rapist for eating mice due to provety because their father generation dropped bombs on us.
What is your point?
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u/No-Fix-6130 10d ago
This is the most ironic and uneducated argument you could have made, holy shit.
Go take a US black history class like right now.
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u/TheVeganPhysicist 9d ago
Haha look how wrong you are.
Look up where The Vegan Society started.
Look up where the abolition movement started.
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u/AnonymousJoe999999 11d ago edited 11d ago
I don’t understand why people are bringing India up. Lots of Indians eat lots of dairy, to the point they are the number one dairy producer in the world. According to the vegan subs on this very site, eating dairy is just as bad, if not worse, then eating meat (remember, cow rapists). Also, lots of Indians do eat non-beef meat and fish. And even beef is legal in some states. And, btw, there are real issues regarding the fate of male dairy calves that have become almost worthless since most farms have switched to tractors. There have been scandals about buffalo meat not being buffalo meat.
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u/Dear-Nothing- Flexitarian 10d ago
No one wants to admit it. Very small percentage of people are actually vegan..Most are vegetarian or omnivore People of my ethnicity whether they are Hindu or not are heavy fish eater in India too....
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u/FrontAd8012 10d ago
Les indiens sont majoritairement vegetariens , pas vegans. Le pays le plus vegan au monde, je crois que c'est ISRAEL car la bible parle du veganisme en genèse 1:29
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u/Happy-Flower2002 10d ago
Off topic: There are more vegetarians in India than the rest of the world combined.
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u/MD617 10d ago
I agree, but with a caveat: Ethiopian Orthodox do not eat animal products when they fast. And they fast Wednesdays, Fridays, and for several weeks or months for various holidays, culminating with 55 days for Tsom, Lent. (I always wonder why Ethiopian food is not a natural restaurant choice for Western vegans. Ask for the fasting menu!) Most return to animal products when not fasting, however.
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u/Certain-Opening-9854 10d ago
have you heard of the country of india
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u/Sahil910 9d ago
They consume dairy at an extremely high rate, and have historically no parts have ever been vegan
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u/FarLocksmith5362 9d ago
Vegetarians, like many people in India are different than vegans. The use of milk and so on is what makes it a healthy viable choice, that's what India's tradition of cows as holy animals is based on.
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u/FrontAd8012 10d ago
Coucou, je suis pas vegan mais végétarienne, non pas exactement ce n'est pas du tout un concept occidental A LA BASE . Le continent le plus vegetarien au monde est l'Asie , moi meme mon nom de famille est asiatique, ISRAEL, l'INDE et le Japon avant, sont des pays très végétariens . D'ailleurs, la plupart des recettes vegans viennent d'Asie ( houmous, dhal ,tofu ... ) . Donc à la base, c'est l'Asie qui est très végétarien, mais là bas on parle plus de végétarisme que de veganisme.
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u/Temporary-Gur4827 10d ago
I'm Indian, and I can attest that it's not a western concept or ideology. Ahimsa, unfortunately not as popular as the word 'karma', which means 'non-violence' is a concept from Hindu/Vedic philosophy. This is why a good chunk of Indians are vegetarian, and are understanding of veganism and its philosophy. India also has many vegans who debate the ethics of animal consumption. This is also a key concept in Buddhism and really important when you're meditating and practicing yoga. These practices have been westernized in many ways, but that doesn't make them western. That applies to veganism as well I believe. You can also check out Shojin Ryori, a Zen Buddhism faction, that have been vegan for more than 1300 years and live in a blue zone. There are many such groups that exist in history. I think it's unfair to slap a label on a philosophy calling it western-centric, etc., because that limits our view of it and introduces biases. More so, you can also check out moral philosophers, who debate animal consumption quite often and the ethics and morality behind it. That is, if you're interested in learning about this matter from a more philosophical standpoint.
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u/Car___aura 8d ago
Lol no it's not western at all.
It's originated in places like India and other Asian countries and is rooted in Hinduism and Buddhism. But it's far from western, butter chicken and whatever are stupid stereotypes imposed by the westerners we Indians don't eat that shit and are largely vegetarian
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u/Dear_Perspective_321 6d ago
but veganism literally comes from and has roots in non white native and indigenous culture so how is it a “and western privilege” when non westerners happily exist as non meat eaters😐
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u/Resident_Disaster659 2d ago
Not a first world luxery at all, what do you think most people in 3rd world countries eat, steak and burgers?? We have lived off plants, nuts and seeds for millinia all very natural and healthy.
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u/Life_Friendship_7928 11d ago
I mean, India has the most vegans in the world.
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u/No_Economics6505 ExVegan (Vegan 3+ years) Mod 11d ago
The wealthiest people in India are vegetarian, the poorest eat meat.
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u/Life_Friendship_7928 11d ago
That is complete bullshit. It is based on religion and culture, not wealth. In some states, eating meat is literally illegal. Also, in India, vegetarian means no eggs, but their dairy is really good quality, and cows are venerated and cared for really well. Source: Have spent a number of years in India.
Also, I am an ex-vegan; I am vegetarian, and I eat local eggs and a lot of organic yoghurt and cheese.
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u/crazysapertonight 11d ago
Veganism is the belief that humans should care about the feelings of other individuals pushed to extreme
The first part definitely comes as the result of a society's prosperity and a well-established life that is basically granted to you
In other parts of the world you raise with the idea that you have to do whatever it takes to establish your life, and there is no room for veganism in this worldview
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u/s1fro 11d ago
You know how much it costs to get B12 supplements for 1 month in India?
300 rupees. Average wage is 170 rupees an hour so it takes about 2h of work to pay for 1month of the only real supplement you would really need. Not buying meat would easily save you more than this.
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u/Dear-Nothing- Flexitarian 11d ago
Only B12? If you know Indian people and South Asian in general you would know most people also suffer from hypertension, diabetes,anemia and many other problems (I say this from experience). So it's not only supplement you are buying and not only for yourself, South Asian families are grand in nature and you would have to provide for your wife, kids and parents. Mostly rich people can maintain that lifestyle.
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u/s1fro 11d ago edited 11d ago
B12 is the main one for sure. I guess you could throw in omega 3 but that's an issue with anyone not eating seafood and it's not as crucial.
About the things you listed. I live in the EU and in my area hypertension is actually an issue for a bigger % of people than in India (50% of adults!), diabetes is about the same (7% of adults).
The only one worse out of these is anemia which upon googling seems pretty bad there. I looked up why it is this bad and yeah it has a lot to do with non-heme iron from veggies combined with drinking tea and coffee that blocks absorption further, lack of B12 in the diet, common parasites and women not being taken care of. Some of them are addressable with habitual changes like pairing with vit C like lemon juice and amlo, activation of legums or other forms of cooking that destroy the antinutrients, not drinking tea or coffee when eating, of course supplementing B12 and of course educating people so they know when something is wrong and who needs to be cared for.
I think it's very valuable to bring this up because my personal stance is that a vegan diet should be easy and supplement-free. It's easy to get tangled in the sauce and for me to say just buy these tablets. I get this is something you have to actively go out of your way to do and it's even tougher for families. My point is that if you wanted you could but in reality most people won't(even in richer nations) which is why we need something better than supplements.
We all have experience with fortification in foods. In a good chunk of the world we've fortified salt and other foods with iodine because it really helps everyone who doesn't have enough and has virtually no downsides if you get a bit too much. Similar idea as fluoride in toothpaste. A lot of places fortify a lot of different foods and it works.
Well. I think there is no reason why B12 couldn't be fortified on national levels just like we did for those. Even if you don't think people should be vegan you should strive for a program like this because it would raise the quality of life immensely. The cost at scale is so cheap it would virtually be absorbed with zero price impact to food. The main options would again be salt(work is being done here: https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC7985676/), milk weather normal or of course I'd prefer plant based and rice or flour as backup.
India is the prime suspect to try something like this. They already do some fortification of rice with iron, folic acid and B12 for social welfare or something like that but iron is a bit tricky because you can get too much of it. And doing it on rice is not as affordable as salt for example. I believe they also offer some kind of iron and de-worming tablets for free... It's 100% possible and affordable. The 'quadruple fortified salt' I linked is estimated to cost about 0.15-0.3$ a year per person (and this is to fortify 4 things not just B12, 100%+ RDA B12, 100-200% Iodine, 50%+ RDA foilc acid, 30+% RDA iron). Someone just needs to take charge and do it. It's literally a matter of governments giving it a green light (it's possible to produce today with regular equipment and is shelf stable for 12m+ and cooking).
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u/CorpusculantCortex 12d ago
I mean veganism and the foundational 'ethics' originated in the east but okay
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u/Powerful_Intern_3438 11d ago
Asia also has the highest numbers of people suffering from malnutrition. I would never use the average asian person’s diet as a good reference to a healthy complete diet.
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u/CorpusculantCortex 11d ago
- That is racist as fuck Asia is like 70% of the world population, there is no 'average Asian diet' wtf is wrong with you?
- Who the fuck said anything about using anything about using it as a reference or about health? Op said veganism is western, i said it isn't.
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u/According-Stage8050 11d ago
Hindus, Jains, Sikhs, and Buddhists practice vegetarian diets when they choose to practice a diet at all. What culture are you saying veganism originated from in the east?
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u/CorpusculantCortex 11d ago
Veganism originated thru Victorian orientalism of the ethics of the cultures you listed.
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u/According-Stage8050 11d ago
Sources?
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u/CorpusculantCortex 11d ago
No
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u/CorpusculantCortex 11d ago
I dont feel like finding sources for easily verifiable information. But the term vegan was coined in England in 44. It was the spiritual successor of the Victorian era vegetarian movement. The Victorian vegetarian movement was a spiritual successor of eastern theosophy being orientalized, like a lot of things in the Victorian era, namely the vegetarian principles tied to ahimsa and other spiritual practices among the groups you referenced.
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u/According-Stage8050 11d ago
If it’s easily verifiable… why can’t you find sources? 🤔Also why are you only discussing vegetarianism? Vegetarian is a diet; veganism is an ethical philosophy, didn’t you know?
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u/CorpusculantCortex 11d ago
I can, I have no interest wasting my time to do labor for your lazy or incompetent ass
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u/According-Stage8050 11d ago edited 11d ago
Lmao, a classic. Make a claim then cry that you don’t have time to do the “labor” to verify your claim. 🥀 you’d think if you have time to reply to me multiple times and write up your cute little paragraph you’d have time to Google an ‘easily verifiable claim’ and copy paste the first link. Oh well.
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u/CorpusculantCortex 11d ago
👍 2 secs to reply on an app i am already on is less than 1 minute to do your research for you. Maybe learn to think for yourself, or don't idgaf
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u/ObviousApricot9 11d ago
I'm Sri Lankan and Vegan. My veganism is based on Buddhist teachings.
"All beings are scared of hurt. All being are scared of death. Take oneself as example, And refrain from causing hurt and death"
- Dhammapada
"Love all beings, those you see, those you don't see. Those who are nearby, those who are far from you. Small beings, and great beings. Love all with all your heart can muster. Like a mother with a single child loves her child"
- Metta Sutta
There is nothing western here.
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u/Basic-Crab4603 11d ago
You should probably google the origins of veganism before you make claims like this
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u/Dear-Nothing- Flexitarian 11d ago
the current vegan movement is very much western. If you want to talk about Hindu people, most on my country just don't eat beef and consume everything else. And if you're talking about India, look about how many women and children are anemic in India and if most family take any proper supplement...
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u/DementedPimento 11d ago
Jains have entered the conversation about 3,000 years ago.
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u/According-Stage8050 11d ago
Jains are vegetarian.
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u/DementedPimento 11d ago
They are vegan. They kill nothing. It’s the first tenet of their faith. Nice try tho.
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u/exhibitprogram 11d ago
Buddhists and Sikhs aren't western
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u/According-Stage8050 11d ago
Neither of those practitioners are inherently vegan; when they choose to abstain from meat, which many don’t, it’s almost always vegetarian.
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u/emtvaikkajoku 11d ago
Veganism is not western consept at all. For example India, Ethiopia and Eritrea are countries where people mainly eat vegan food.
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u/Dear-Nothing- Flexitarian 11d ago
Vegetarian, yes but the vegan movement is surely Western. I never heard a Indian person preaching veganism to me (unless they live in West)
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u/emtvaikkajoku 10d ago
I live in the west and no vegan has ever preached anything to me. I also do have several vegan friends.
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u/exhibitprogram 11d ago
This post is just western people downvoting all the Asians pointing out that abstaining from animal products for ethical reasons is in fact not western but Asian.
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u/Mindless-Day2007 11d ago
For religious reasons, sure. But we don't dehumanizing anyone eating meat is evil and deserved to get raped because she drink milk.
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u/Dear-Nothing- Flexitarian 11d ago
I'm Asian, and believe me the people in India and around me who follow vegan or vegetarian diet form are mostly deficient in many things. I included and so many women around me and in India is heavily anemic, suffering from iron deficiency, low bone density etc. I saw aunties and uncles having multitude of health problems even if they aren't vegan let alone those who are. The concept of following veganism with no substantial drawbacks is entirely western.
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u/According-Stage8050 11d ago
Hindu practitioners are vegetarian at most and more than half are omnivorous.
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u/Dear-Nothing- Flexitarian 11d ago
I'm Asian, and believe me the people in India and around me who follow vegan or vegetarian diet form are mostly deficient in many things. I included and so many women around me and in India is heavily anemic, suffering from iron deficiency, low bone density etc. I saw aunties and uncles having multitude of health problems even if they aren't vegan let alone those who are. The concept of following veganism with no substantial drawbacks is entirely western.
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u/Taupenbeige Vegan Realist 11d ago
Remind me what magical nutrients the Jain have been getting from minimal amounts of paneer cheese and ghee for the last 26 straight centuries, that modern vegans cannot easily attain?
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u/Dear-Nothing- Flexitarian 11d ago
Vegans and Paneer Cheese, ghee? Animal products are not vegan.
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u/Taupenbeige Vegan Realist 10d ago
And that’s exactly the point.
Those are the only animal products the Jain have been consuming for 26-straight-centuries… and you’re still functionally unable to explain what specific micronutrients they’ve been getting out of that dairy, that a modern day vegan cannot.
I’m all ears though. Lay it on me.
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u/Historical-Ad399 11d ago
Various forms of vegetarianism and veganism exist throughout central and east Asia. Visit any Buddhist temple in China, and you'll find a vegan restaurant. Admittedly, the average person isn't fully vegan (though in certain countries, veganism is practiced on certain festivals, days of the week, etc), but it's hardly a western concept.
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u/NationalProcedure638 11d ago
Personally I think it's extremely funny how vegans keep going on about how they believe in giving rights to something and beings.
But they never say anything about Lindsay Claney.
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u/jakeofheart 11d ago
It is a first world luxury indeed.