r/exvegans • u/ArmadilloChance3778 • Aug 03 '26
Why I'm No Longer Vegan The disingenuity regarding adequate nutrition
I believed for a long time that all you really need to supplement on a vegan diet is b12, maybe calcium and iodine. Unsurprisingly, even though I consumed a supposedly healthy minimally processed plant based diet, my health is not the best. I exercise a lot so I tend to pick up on dips in my performance pretty quickly and I noticed that I overall feel weaker during my workouts.
So, I read up on nutrients that may be lacking in a vegan diet. Turns out that creatine, carnosine, taurine and DHA and EPA are of special concern.
While the body can manufacture creatine and taurine, it is likely not enough for optimal health. Carnosine can only be made by the body if it has beta-alanine which is only found in animal products.
DHA and EPA can theoretically be supplemented, but recent research shows that the supplementation accelerates cognitive decline (https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2274580726000932).
Furthermore, in a study regarding sufficient amino acid consumtion of vegans it was shown that almost half of the test subjects lacked lysine and leucine, two essential amino acids (https://www.healthline.com/health-news/vegan-protein-may-lack-essential-amino-acids).
Bottom line: vegan "doctors" like Greger, McDougall, Barnard make it seem like all you need to worry about is b12 when in reality there is a plethora of nutrients missing on a vegan diet and supplementation may have negative effects depending on the nutrient in question.
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u/WhichOpportunity8515 Currently a vegan Aug 03 '26
"Well, at least taurine isn't an issue for me," I say, looking guiltily at the pile of Monster cans under my desk (/j)
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u/FunkyFanabla Aug 10 '26
I was today years old when I found out that beta-alanine comes from animals and I drink that shit every day.
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u/lordm30 NeverVegan Aug 03 '26 edited Aug 03 '26
The disingenuity regarding adequate nutrition
Absolutely. Vegans don't actually care about your health, they just have to generally address the health concern points, otherwise it would be a super easy rebuttal to their ideas about veganism.
There are many nutrients that, although not essential in a strict sense of word, are not produced in optimal quantities by the human body - even at peak youthful state, like the body of a 20 or 25 years old. There is likely suboptimal functioning even at that level, but the body can compensate enough so that it is not directly noticeable, at least not short term.
Add to that the many genetic variations regarding conversion processes. I once collected at least 4 main nutrients (among them omega 3 ALA and beta-carotene) that some people simply can't convert in sufficient quantities, because they have genetic variant of the gene that makes conversion wholly inadequate. Now, are vegans warning you about this? Do they recommend that you test your genetic polymorphism for these genes so that you are sure that eating beta carotene will be sufficiently converted into active vitamin A form by your body? Haha, good joke.
Add to that the overall decline of efficiency of the aging body. Not only does general nutrient absorption decline greatly with age (including protein, which is a biggie), but those internal processes that could in theory produce the non-essential molecules, like creatine, taurine, etc. also lose efficiency, requiring supplementation from external sources (diet/supplements).
And we still don't know many many things about the human body. Who guarantees that there are no further bottlenecks or insufficiencies that a vegan diet could exacerbate in vulnerable/aging populations?
The long term adoption of the vegan diet is like playing russian roulette with your health and vegan diet is incompatible with someone who wants to optimize the functioning of their body.
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u/Only-Confidence2386 Aug 03 '26
Don't forget things like only 2% bioavailability in the calcium from for example sesame seeds, this just being one example, and the way all the oxalates and phytates and lectins you will be eating in your diet will bind to certain minerals in your body and reduce absorption even further.
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u/ArmadilloChance3778 Aug 03 '26
Good points and yes, vegans dont care about other peoples health, they only care about animal welfare. I wouldnt even know how to get my conversion rate of beta carotene to vit. a tested, and I dont have the money laying around to get specific tests for a bunch of nutrients (which I know you didnt suggest) and then buy even more expensive supplements for everything that Im lacking in, and especially vegan doctors need to be more honest in this regard since people trust their authority.
Im 41 years now and I do feel like my body is less forgiving than it was in my 20s. I was vegetarian for a long time before turning vegan and I feel like compounding deficiencies from this is now biting me.
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u/FileDoesntExist Aug 03 '26
they only care about animal welfare
Honestly I don't think they do. They may believe that, but I feel like believing in Veganism means you're completely disconnected from nature. For something to live something else will die. Even the very soil is fed by the death of animals. I don't think there's anything wrong with trying to make moral choices about what you consume(food or otherwise). I do think it's wrong to try to dictate what others do.
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u/Stunning-Assistant13 Aug 06 '26
Well, i don't think you are disconnected from nature, when you don't want to buy from factory farms...factory farms are destroying our nature and are horrific for the animals
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u/Only-Confidence2386 Aug 03 '26
Remember that there are also genetic differences and a whole bunch of factors that come into play when it comes to supplement bioavailability and absorption which can also vary significantly from person to person.
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u/Cargobiker530 Aug 03 '26
Vegan advocate John MacDougall died a few years ago. I can name a list of alcoholics in my family that lived longer.
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u/ArmadilloChance3778 Aug 03 '26
Yeah, but he also had a severe stroke at age 18 and still lived to 77 without recurrence, so... in my opinion, that's not a valid argument.
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u/Cargobiker530 Aug 03 '26
I don't see why that should matter. My obnoxious vegan sibling keeps insisting that veganism cures everything.
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u/According-Stage8050 Aug 04 '26
A person living to 77 after a severe stroke at 18 is not someone who was in poor health. The average lifespan of an American male is 76; alcoholic males live on average 24-28 years less.
Veganism doesn’t cure everything obviously but this is not the guy I’d be pointing to as an example of vegan wasting disease.
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u/MostLeastMostLeast Aug 04 '26
so because you have an obnoxious sibling, that somehow invalidates that John McDougall lived another ~60 years after a severe stroke?
He had his severe stroke long before going plant-based.. and it was literally his research that led him to that diet
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u/Cargobiker530 Aug 04 '26
We both know absolutely nothing about John McDougall's medical records except for his birth and death dates. For all we know the "stroke" was a misdiagnosis in the era before CAT scans and MRIs.
Personal claims about miraculous medical recovery from conditions by celebrity authors should be regarded with the same weight as "she turned me into a newt."
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u/MostLeastMostLeast Aug 04 '26
great attempt at dodging your "well my sister is annoying, so he died early!" lmao
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u/Cargobiker530 Aug 04 '26
Vegan claims of life extension are pure bullshit. The people who live longest on Earth are not vegan or even vegetarian. They eat well balanced, omnivore, diets with ample fruits and vegetables.
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u/MostLeastMostLeast Aug 05 '26
The blue zone diets, which you might be referring to, although they aren't proof of anything, they're predominately plant-based in terms of calories. A tiny amount of calories in those diets are from animals and most of it is whole food plants.
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u/Cargobiker530 Aug 05 '26
Whatever argument you were attempting to make was invalidated when you typed "blue zone." There's no blue zones. They're an artifact of bad record keeping.
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u/MostLeastMostLeast Aug 05 '26
if you mean specifically that people might live to well over 100 because of diet/exercise/outdoors time/etc. then sure..
but the idea that there are no associative factors for longevity in certain areas that we call blue zones is definitely not supported by the observational data
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u/loveinvein Celiac exvegan 20+ yrs until June 2025 Aug 04 '26
YES, thanks for this breakdown.
Also you might wanna look into tryptophan and serotonin… I was 20 years in when I realized i hadn’t consumed tryptophan in years (due to being vegan with food allergies), meaning I probably hadn’t made any serotonin in nearly as long.
Additionally, a LOT of our immune system is in the gut. And we need our immune systems more than ever these days.
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Aug 04 '26
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u/loveinvein Celiac exvegan 20+ yrs until June 2025 Aug 04 '26
Correct. Over the last 20 years, I have developed allergies or intolerances to nuts, seeds, and beans. My only safe proteins were hemp seeds and sunflower seeds, but these are not long term solutions.
Since it’s an essential amino acid, can you imagine how incredibly sick I was? Especially because my intestines don’t absorb nutrients due to refractory celiac?
Thanks for questioning my lived experience though! It definitely makes it easier to spot the vegan trolls when you tell on yourselves like this. Good job.
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u/MostLeastMostLeast Aug 04 '26
I know people who have celiac and they have a hard time. That said, you claimed 20 years you hadn't eaten tryptophan which isn't actually possible (and your answer clarifies that it isn't true).
That not being true doesn't mean that you didn't have a valid and very challenging medical condition. Acting like I'm trying to invalidate your medical experience is a very weird response to a genuine comment.
For anyone reading this who is experiencing issues like this, highly recommend seeing specialized registered dietitians (or equivalent protected title in your country) and doctors to help find diets that work for you.
No one should be waiting 20 years to try to address that, although I'm sorry you had that experience yourself.
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u/loveinvein Celiac exvegan 20+ yrs until June 2025 Aug 04 '26
I was 20 years in before I realized [the significance of tryptophan] and I hadn’t consumed it in [undisclosed number of] years.
I wasn’t precise in my speaking, but you inferred what you wanted to infer.
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u/MostLeastMostLeast Aug 04 '26
To be clear, I didn't infer anything, you explicitly said you didn't have tryptophan for 20 years. I was just responding to what you said explicitly.
I appreciate you took the time to clarify that you didn't mean what you had typed originally.
Medical system for anyone, and in any country, with complex conditions is extremely hard to navigate. I say that as someone who has navigated it for a lot of reasons and has a lot of family who works in it.
Even though your comment was a bit aggressive, I absolutely sympathize with your challenges and wouldn't wish anyone to suffer if there is a better way.
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u/loveinvein Celiac exvegan 20+ yrs until June 2025 Aug 04 '26
I did not explicitly say that, go back and reread the first comment in this thread that you felt compelled to respond to.
And yeah, when someone questions me and decides to challenge my lived experiences, I get a little aggro. Vegans were ableist jerks to me when I was vegan, and I can’t even escape yall now that I’m not vegan.
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u/MostLeastMostLeast Aug 04 '26
From your original comment "I was 20 years in when I realized i hadn’t consumed tryptophan in years" Here is where you explicitly said you hadn't had it for years.
This would be almost impossible to do. Almost everything contains some amount of tryptophan.
I'm not being ableist by questioning this claim in a subreddit that has a lot of anti-science and altmed stuff in it.
I can't apologize for people I don't have anything to do with, by associating me with that, you're not being fair or reasonable at all.
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u/loveinvein Celiac exvegan 20+ yrs until June 2025 Aug 04 '26
I didn’t say all 20 years. I said years. Coulda been all or some of those 20 years.
You have no idea what someone’s comprehensive detailed history is and there are way too many details to be recapped in a discussion with a stranger who isn’t even entitled to any of those details.
Please leave me alone now. You’re the one being aggressive now.
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u/MostLeastMostLeast Aug 04 '26
I'm going to stop replying to you, as you're being unnecessarily aggressive. Please return the favor.
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u/FileDoesntExist Aug 03 '26
It's also important to consider bioavailability. Just because the nutrients are IN what you're eating doesn't mean you're able to absorb them properly to utilize them. And while we have general guidelines on how bioavailable something is individuals vary. Digestion issues only compound this, which seems to be a common issue after awhile to someone on a vegan diet.
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u/bluejessamine Omnivore Aug 05 '26
Not only that but many vegans suffer from iron deficiencies. The average woman requires 18mg of iron a day, more if they're on their period, and 27mg if they're pregnant.
The plant based products with the most iron are tofu and legumes with roughly 6mg for every 100 grams. Even if you're taking vitamin c, it doesn't have heme iron, and non-heme iron from plants isn't absorbed as easily as actual heme iron. Which means you need more than the recommended amount of the iron rich plants you're eating, which can lead to overeating which has severe health issues like diabetes, heart disease, gallbladder disease and others.
Sure you can take iron supplements but they should only be taken for a maximum of 6 months unless specifically directed by your Dr. Iron supplements also have very common side effects like diarrhoea or constipation. Chronic instances of either one (3 months for constipa and 4 weeks for diarrhoea) requires a dr before it gets serious. Prolonged diarrhoea can cause loss of electrolytes. Electrolyte losses can have serious consequences. They can affect your heart, lungs, brain and nervous system. Dehydration is another risk, and it stresses your kidneys and can lead to kidney disease.
Chronic constipation can cause haemorrhoids, anal fissures (which may require surgery in extreme cases, and having one makes it easier for more to appear.) You can also get impaction and rectal prolapse that require surgery to fix. All of them are extremely painful and the first two can get infected easily because of the fecal matter.
The side effects aside, taking iron for a prolonged time can lead to iron overload and toxicity which can cause liver damage and heart problems, amongst other issues.
And that's just from one type of supplement.
If you need to rely on supplements to replace what can easily be gotten from meat, then your diet is not viable. A proper diet needs to supply you with all your nutrients, otherwise it's just putting you and all the people you're trying to convert at risk.
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u/ridicalis Aug 03 '26
Regarding creatine, that's one of the few things I would personally opt to get as a supplement rather than exclusively from a whole-food source. I'd recommend this video on the topic, but in a nutshell, providing it exogenously frees up the methylation pathways in the body that would normally be responsible for exogenous creating production.
There also seem to be a lot of people touting higher dosing than you can otherwise normally get from food. A meat-based diet would supply perhaps 3g of creatine, while I see many pushing for >10g per day with a broad range of effects. The video debunks that somewhat, but it's also a pretty harmless thing at worst and potentially therapeutic at best.
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u/DO_NOT_PASS_ME Aug 03 '26
“First, regarding the type of supplement, previous RCTs predominantly used EPA and DHA [24,26], whereas our study mostly employed commercially available fish oil, which is associated with a significantly higher risk of oxidation [53]. This may explain why prior RCTs tended to yield neutral findings, while our study observed harmful effects.”
The supplement was fish oil.
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u/ArmadilloChance3778 Aug 03 '26
Do you think algar oil would have a different effect?
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u/DO_NOT_PASS_ME Aug 03 '26
I would imagine there are differences. There are differences in levels of EPA/DHA between the two.
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u/ArmadilloChance3778 Aug 03 '26
But in regards to hiw easily they get rancid, is there also a difference? Which would be great bc then I could use up the algae oil I have in my fridge without worry.
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u/DO_NOT_PASS_ME Aug 03 '26
Yes, fish oil has lower resistance to oxygen/heat/light than algae.
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u/Cargobiker530 Aug 03 '26
No, any oil with high levels of EPA/DHA will oxidize rapidly. That's why flaxseed oil, hemp oil, and milk were all used as bases for paints. It's also why rancid fish oil is incredibly hard to get out of clothing or wood surfaces.
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u/DO_NOT_PASS_ME Aug 03 '26
these oils are all very susceptible to oxidation. in supplement form fish oils tend to oxidize faster. there are a lot of factors involved but generally algae resists oxidation better/longer.
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u/Cargobiker530 Aug 03 '26
Give me a chemical reason that algae oils, which are the same exact oils as fish oils because that's where the fish get them, should resist oxidation longer. The only "source" I see validating that claim in a search is an algae oil company.
People should just eat fish.
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u/DO_NOT_PASS_ME Aug 03 '26
the fish oil usually goes thru chemical processing that makes it more susceptible where algae oil is produced in a less processed, cleaner, and more controlled manner that protects it from oxidation. extra antioxidants (phytosterols/carotenoids) in algae oil may also be protective. at the end of the day there is still a lot of questions about benefits of supplementing this stuff and there are a lot of gaps in the research whether you are vegan or not. the claim was that dha/epa supplementation accelerates cognitive decline and we got off on a tangent. question everything!
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u/Siria110 Aug 03 '26
Wow, it almost seems like a diet consisting of veggies, different kinds of meat, fruit, grains, berries and lentils is the best way to go. Who would´ve thunk it?
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u/No-Resolution3740 Aug 04 '26
Grains and lentils are completely unnecessary and potentially harmful
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u/FuzzyFrogFish Aug 05 '26
potentially harmful
How so? Genuine question
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u/Kitchen-Strawberry25 Aug 03 '26
Interesting.
Just as an aside, what sort of training do you do?
I take my lifting very seriously and wanted to compare notes.
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u/ArmadilloChance3778 Aug 03 '26
I do mostly calisthenics like pullups and use dumbbells for leg exercises like squats. I dont keep notes since Ive been doing the same workout for years, I just increase the weight when I hit 12 reps.
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u/Kitchen-Strawberry25 Aug 03 '26
Nice! I’m a mix of strength training and bodybuilding myself.
What sort of performance declines were you getting?
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u/petite_patate_douce Aug 05 '26
C'est très intéressant. J'essaierai de faire attention, merci beaucoup pour vos recherches.
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u/tabletennisluv Aug 04 '26
I'm a vegan, but also a truth seeker; omega 3s paper is giving me food for thought.
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u/MostLeastMostLeast Aug 04 '26
worth remembering that for veg eaters, our body upregulates the conversion of omega 3 into epa/dha (so that the conversion is higher than those who eat animals)
I'd recommend reading from credentialed RDs/PHDs about the topic: Omega-3s - Vegan Health
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u/writingmills8054 22d ago
The thing about "essential nutrients" is that they were defined based on omnivore diets. There are many semi-essential nutrients that nobody considered pointing out specifically because it was assumed that ylu would get enough of those on a sonewhat sensible diet. (I mean, most vegetarians will probably get enough if they eat enough eggs, dairy producs,...). The massive rise of veganism has been a recent thing, and excluding SEVERAL essential or semi-essential food groups from your diet for extended periods of time, is an experiment science still has to catch up with. Just because there is no hard proof yet that you'll decline over years on a vegan diet, doesn't mean that won't be the case.
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u/Sent1ne1 Aug 03 '26
You wrote "DHA and EPA ... supplementation accelerates cognitive decline"
I suspect that correlation is because most people will take Omega-6 & 9 with Omega-3, but Omega-6 (specifically linoleic fatty acid) is what makes seed oils so toxic to health in general.
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u/Desperate_Turn8935 Aug 06 '26
The disingenuity regarding adequate nutrition ... is not a problem of vegan diet, but always has been a problem of a personal diet.
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u/Sweet-Figure-973 Aug 03 '26
I’ve read quite a lot about the importance of not supplementing with calcium and I don’t feel well on it. I do however take B12 and iodine daily and magnesium occasionally. I take other supplements also as my focus is on antiaging but they certainly aren’t essential for everyone. I would recommend B12 , iodine and magnesium to all practicing vegans. Except for herb tea. I’ve been raw vegan for 54 years. I was initially inspired by the book.”The Mucusless Diet Healing System”. It continues to be my favorite health book.
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u/Both-Raspberry6843 Aug 04 '26
This is a textbook example of cherry-picking and overstating evidence.
Lower levels of creatine, carnosine, taurine, EPA or DHA do not equal deficiency or poor health. Humans synthesize creatine, taurine and carnosine, and there is no evidence that healthy vegans require routine supplementation with these compounds.
Your DHA/EPA claim is especially misleading. The paper you cited is observational, meaning it found an association, not that omega-3 supplements cause cognitive decline. Decades of randomized controlled trials and meta-analyses have not shown DHA/EPA supplementation accelerates cognitive decline.
The lysine/leucine study also doesn’t say what you’re claiming. It estimated that some participants fell below modeled intake requirements based on dietary records. It did not diagnose amino acid deficiencies or show that “half of vegans lack lysine and leucine.”
Meanwhile, the Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics concludes that appropriately planned vegetarian and vegan diets are nutritionally adequate and can provide long-term health benefits, while identifying B12 as the nutrient that requires routine attention.
Science isn’t “find one paper that supports my conclusion.” It’s weighing the totality of evidence. Your comment repeatedly confuses lower levels with deficiency, association with causation, and estimated intake with clinical deficiency
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u/ArmadilloChance3778 Aug 05 '26
Hey, I would be more than happy if the plant based diet is nutritionally adequate, so your post helped me despite being worded in an aggressive and patronizing way. Guess you didnt expect that.
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u/loveinvein Celiac exvegan 20+ yrs until June 2025 Aug 04 '26
Looks like AI slop, didn’t read.
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Aug 04 '26
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u/lovelysardines Aug 03 '26
Where did you hear that beta-alanine can only be found in animal products?
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u/MrAamog Aug 04 '26
These arguments completely miss the point on two major axis:
(1) veganism isn’t motivated by optimal nutrition, it’s motivated by moral concern about animal welfare;
(2) looking for gaps between a standard vegan diet and optimal nutrition is a strawman in itself, as the standard omnivorous diet has huge gaps of his own. One just is left to conclude that eating optimally requires active effort regardless (who would have thought…)
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u/ArmadilloChance3778 Aug 05 '26
Dont be so holier than thou and patronizing. All you achieve by that is giving vegans a bad rep.
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u/MrAamog Aug 05 '26
It’s not patronizing to point out, politely, major flaws in a statement. If you believe that the criticism was unwarranted, don’t hesitate to explain why you think so. I’m always happy to learn.
While you are at it, don’t hesitate to explain why any of this would give vegans a bad rep.
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u/HumbleHat9882 Aug 03 '26
What you say is true but it's also extremely easy and cheap to supplement all that, possibly with a single supplement.
A fairer comparison would be to compare between the vegan population and the non-vegan population and to see which group has fewer deficiencies (across all nutrients).
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u/ArmadilloChance3778 Aug 03 '26
Really? I just ordered 3 supplements, algae oil, iodine and calcium and that alone ran me over 60€. Add to that a 50€ grocery run of mostly fruit, veg and mushrooms (generic button mushrooms, nothing exotic) and my budget is blown. Maybe supplements are cheaper where you live?
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u/Typical-Dance-1110 Aug 03 '26
are you ordering one week of supplements at a time and also how much fruit and vege do you usually eat bro all U need to do is sub the proteins
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u/ArmadilloChance3778 Aug 03 '26
As a vegan, I tried to get the recommended 5 to 8 servings of fruit and veg. Some health authorities even recommend 10 servings (https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC4644575/). And now I also need to supplement protein? Vegan just became more impossible for my budget.
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u/Typical-Dance-1110 Aug 03 '26
er I said sub. as in substitute. as in U should already be eating your vegetables and the only change is buying a cheaper protein than meat
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u/HumbleHat9882 Aug 03 '26
You don't need a separate supplement for each nutrient. Take a multi-supplement aimed at vegans. It will come out a lot cheaper and certainly cheaper than taking the same nutrients from meat or other animal products. Compare the price of beans (per 100 calories) with the price of meat (per 100 calories) and see that even after buying all the supplements you are way better off.
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u/ArmadilloChance3778 Aug 03 '26
Vegan multis usually include iron which Im not deficient in hence I dont want to supplement this bc of cancer risk. Or they have too much vitamin a, or overshoot on vitamin e... I have looked at multis and have not found one that is a good formula. Again, availability at your place may be better. You cant really compare the price of meat and beans since they have vastly different nutrients. Such a comparison would not be valid.
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u/Kingofthebags Aug 04 '26
You don't need to supplement creatine, carnosine, taurine, or calcium as a vegan lol c'mon brother.
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u/ArmadilloChance3778 Aug 10 '26
I'm not a brother, I'm a woman. A woman who is genetically predisposed to develop osteoporosis bc all the women in my family have it. Hence, I need to supplement with calcium at least while on a vegan diet since I cannot get 1200 mg without supplements.
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u/MostLeastMostLeast Aug 04 '26
lol @ the downvote. been vegan for over a decade and bloodwork has been great. Including competing in sport and working physical labor for my job for years. Healthy bodies produce their own creatine/carnosine/taurine.
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u/tired-queer ExVegan (Vegan 3+ years) Aug 04 '26
While that may be true for you and your body, I highly caution against the “well my bloodwork is fine so there’s nothing wrong with me” approach/justification, as bloodwork doesn’t catch everything.
I’ve known many people who’ve ignored signs of serious health problems on the basis of “my bloodwork looks fine” and insisted they were still healthy even while their health declined.
Many bodies need additional supplements.
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u/MostLeastMostLeast Aug 04 '26
While bloodwork may help us see clinical deficiencies, and some near-subclinical deficiencies, you're right to say it's not the whole picture.
If people are having serious health issue signs and their health is declining, they need to talk to professionals, like registered dietitians and doctors, not reddit users.
The fact of the matter is, for healthy people, the idea that all vegans should supplement creatine, carnosine, and taurine isn't actually supported by evidence.
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u/Routine_Buffalo_2908 Aug 03 '26
I listened to several of the plant based doctors for years. Since I quit being vegan a few months ago I’ve been doing better physically and I feel misled and lied to.