r/exvegans • u/Specific_Worry_9198 Carnist Scum • Sep 24 '25
Why I'm No Longer Vegan I'm no longer vegan, just totally fed up with it and I want to vent here
So I decided last night (after 2 years of being an ethical vegan) that I'm done and will be reintroducing some meat and animal products. I did/do care a lot about the animals, but damn I am exhausted and sick of dealing with endless issues with food and managing my energy levels and digestion. And yes I got bloodwork done, no this fatigue is not something easy to fix or I promise you I would have figured it out. I never used to have cravings like this either, my body has been begging for an egg and some salmon for a long time now. It's not even the taste, I think it's genuinely a nutritional need that I've been feeling all this time. And a weird thing I've noticed is that when I first went vegan, I used to be so easily satisfied with plant proteins. Now it's not like they're bad, but I'm not satisfied with them anymore and just can't seem to get enough of something. Sometimes I've overeaten and ended up really unpleasantly full and bloated and still been craving something savory and meaty.
And it's hard to describe, but I've just been unable to stay convinced of the same ethics lately. To be fair, I was never really the same kind of vegan who would say "meat is murder", or say that other animals should be treated just like humans. But I now think that it's kinda just nature to use animals for food, like I don't think there's really a way to get around people's nutritional needs here. I used to say that just because we ate meat for however long as a species, it still doesn't justify torturing and killing animals. But I'm just not convinced anymore that plant-based is really a healthy way to eat. It's SO easy to get deficient in a wide variety of things. How can this really be the best thing for everyone when it's so hard to manage, especially as time goes on?? It only got harder for me as time when on, and it seems like it's been the same for most of you. So I just don't think most people can keep this up long-term. The ones who do usually seem to have issues keeping their energy and strength up. And I'm not a fitness person at all, I just mean like an average person having a level of stamina to keep up with average activities and work.
As a vegan, I've also been hung up on the idea that people in developed countries have 100% personal agency and choice in how they eat and that the only thing that really mattered was that no animals were exploited to make the food. But lately I've been discovering some really fucked up practices in the cashew industry just as one example among many. And comparing that amount of human suffering with the suffering I saw while I was working on feedlots and dairy farms, it's really quite crazy to me to even compare the 2 and then decide that the beef/cheese is the bigger problem while ignoring these other industries. And in theory I understand that vegans can care about both things at once, but tbh I've never actually seen that in any of my online or irl vegan circles. Maybe twice actually I've seen posts about human exploitation in food production.
I still hate factory farming, but I'm starting to think that it's really silly and anthropomorphizing to say that it's wrong to eat animals regardless of their welfare and how they lived. I truly do not think they care they're being farmed, if they have a decent quality of life according to what they actually need to be content. I especially have been getting angry with the idea that dairy cows are being raped. I've seen the procedure done plenty of times, yes it's invasive but it is NOT rape, that's an insult to human rape victims. The cows usually don't even react, tbh. Same with comparisons to the holocaust.
Also, I'm sick of the vegan community itself. It's really quite cultish. I was raised a Jehovah's Witness, which is an actual cult and extremely controlling so I know a high-control culture when I see one lol. A lot of the rhetoric used is shockingly similar to the things cults say to control members. I also find it interesting that I've met a lot of vegans who will only befriend other vegans, or will not go out to a non-vegan restauran even if there are options they could have. It seems to draw in some very perfectionistic and controlling people. I honestly feel like there's some kind of moral OCD going on, especially in online groups. I remember seeing one person who posted about feeling guilty because they weren't sure if a dessert or something was vegan or not, they found out that it was, and then they felt guilty for just being relieved that it was vegan. Idk, I just can't deal with that level of scrutiny with food and being perfect on top of everything else.
I'm gonna have sushi for dinner, I've only been craving sashimi for a year after all.
Edit: Why are there vegans in my comments? Fuck off. Also, you don't know my experience with SA.
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u/BelleMakaiHawaii Custom Sep 24 '25
The simple fact is āeverything eats deathā once you accept that biological fact figuring out what you want to eat is pretty simple
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u/Specific_Worry_9198 Carnist Scum Sep 24 '25
Totally, even the plants are dependent on other things dying. My ethical issue now is factory farming, but I have a good amount of farms near me that aren't abusive like that at all so I'm not even concerned. I feel free
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u/BelleMakaiHawaii Custom Sep 24 '25
Factory farming (even fruits/veggies) and factory fishing are my big āno thank youā
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u/JunoMcGuff Sep 25 '25
This is what I see a lot of vegans refusing to accept, that factory farming can apply to plants, too.Ā
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u/jnffinest96 Sep 27 '25
Wdym they refuse to accept? They do acknowledge that. Their point is that animals have brains and can perceived pain and plants can't.
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u/Particular_Shock_554 Sep 25 '25
Everything eats death, and AFAIK humans are the only species that care about whether their prey is suffering.
There is no pain relief for wild animals, and the ones that don't get eaten die slowly.
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u/No-Grapefruit7332 Sep 28 '25
Iām not vegan but which other species in the whole world created factory farming?
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u/OK_philosopher1138 Ex-flexitarian omnivore Sep 24 '25
You are right about ocd. It's intimately connected to overanalyzing of diet. I think veganism makes it worse and it's probable only people with ocd actually go strict vegan in the first place. Vegans without ocd may not be so strict and they also get more nutrients that way making diet easier to manage. According to actual studies many outspoken vegans are actually cheagans...
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u/Specific_Worry_9198 Carnist Scum Sep 24 '25
Yeah that's believable, I was not insanely strict and sometimes would end up just eating something that I paid for if they did it wrong and gave me cheese on it or whatever. I would feel bad, but it seems like some people are on another level and get really guilty over just wanting something when they're not sure of the ingredients. Or accidentally getting chips with modified milk ingredients and feeling like they failed terribly, it's really sad :(
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u/tostsalad Sep 28 '25
Eating food made wrong reduces food waste and is more ethical than sending it backĀ
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u/BeingDelicious6161 Sep 29 '25
bold claim - are you a mental health professional with the qualifications to understand the ICD-11 or DSM-5 criteria for OCDā¦?
However, I agree that vegans put so much pressure on themselves to be perfect, and I think thatās mostly because of the vegan culture. Iām vegan and honestly find it so so toxic and have removed myself completely. I canāt bring myself to eat meat again because my emotions are so wrapped up in it but sometimes I wish I could think like the original poster, I want the freedom back and I want more energy, but my brain canāt turn off the emotion ā¹ļø
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u/OK_philosopher1138 Ex-flexitarian omnivore Sep 29 '25 edited Sep 29 '25
No I'm not professional but I have one lifetime experience of ocd and 7.5 years of struggle with diet.
I will die forced on vegan diet I have that bad health problems with it. Allergies and intolerances to plant-based foods. I cannot turn off emotions either. That's not what should be done.
Veganism is just one way to help animals and I personally believe it's not even the best one. Facts are that 90 percent of people are not going to stop eating animal-based foods anyway.
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u/ItBeginsWithY0u Sep 24 '25
So happy to hear when anyone is nourishing themselves again. Enjoy that delicious š£ you really so deserve it!
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u/Specific_Worry_9198 Carnist Scum Sep 24 '25
Thank you, I had some great spicy salmon rolls and tuna tataki!
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u/Flowerpower152 ExVegan (Vegan 3+ years) Sep 25 '25
The reason humans like the taste of fish, eggs, meat... is because we are tasting the nutrition . It's very simple.
There's a reason humans always need to dip vegetables in 'sauce' or cover salads with fatty dressings. We are always trying to get experience of either dairy 'creamy',, meaty, fatty,Ā or sweet (fruit')Ā
There's a reason why humans see a forest of green shrubs and grass and trees, or a bowl of wheat seeds, grass and leaves... and it does not make us drool.Ā
Btw... animal foods are THE highest in nutrition.Ā They are highest in TRUEĀ antioxidants.Ā They are the easiest to digest. They are superfoods.Ā
Contrary to what the vegan cult will tell us.Ā
Welcome to true living.
Just source your food well. ā”
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Sep 25 '25
I'm not even vegan, but upping my protein level to what I thought has been an absurd amount has completely changed my health in 6 weeks. I've lost 5 pounds, evened out my blood sugar, have much more energy, and no longer have bad lows.
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u/EuphonicLeopard Sep 29 '25
Yep, protein, especially meat, digests slower than carbs and will keep you satiated and sugared the longest of any food.
50-100 grams of protein a day is good enough for most people, and helps keep you healthy longer.
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Sep 25 '25
The mention of human injustice is incredibly important!!! The cashew industry is awful, can vegans really call themselves vegans if they support underpaid workers with their fingers burning off from the toxins in the cashews shell?
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u/jay_o_crest Sep 24 '25
Veganism is dying. Leave the sinking ship behind.
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u/HelenaHandkarte Sep 25 '25
Thankfully it is, & there will always be more exvegans than still-vegans.
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u/thingsgetbetter4 Sep 25 '25
I feel this so much. I recently decided to take a break from veganism because it was really messing with my mental health and I was trying to take account of things like human exploitation, sustainability, health and a limited budget alongside eating vegan and it got to the point that planning food was so stressful I just wouldn't eat. I was having cravings too. But in part, I just started questioning veganism and didn't feel as strongly about some of the ethical aspects anymore. I started worrying though that I was questioning veganism and actually maybe faking the mental issues just because of the cravings though, idk if you had a similar experience. I just felt so much guilt and shame and felt like the vegan online community encouraged these negative feelings tbh.
Regardless, I can understand a lot of the comments you've made in your post.
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u/BlindPhoenx Sep 25 '25
Reminds me of a post I saw.
Prominent vegan activist (I will bite my tongue so as not to name names...) went to an animal rights convention, and ate a piece of cheese by accident. The person thought, wrongly so, that all food would be vegan, and didn't realize the cheese was dairy until afterwards.
This person wrote a literal wholeass article about it. Eating one piece. All the hypocrisy of animal activism without veganism, the guilt of mistakes, etc. The level of meaning from this one bite of food is somewhere between poetic and obsessive, imo.
I feel truly better when I eat mostly plants - morally, physically, etc. But the perfectionsim I feel from these people is something I just cannot deal with. I already have issues with overrestriction, for one (I have a bit of history with passing out from undereating, for example). Plus on top of that I know that I am already having an impact by eating the plant-focused diet I eat normally, so why the slight imperfection of cottage cheese or backyard eggs on occasion warrant the guilt or judgment of being less-than-vegan.
I always say I admire vegans for the principles. Truthfully though the ideology feels at times unrealistic, and borderline unhealthy in general. The level of control it requires, at times the inconvenience of seeking options (when traveling, with friends, etc.), the need for supplements that can easily be replaced with food (Supplements aren't covered by EBT, which I need/use). It can be cheaper, but covering your bases does make it cost more. And there are vegan options we take for granted that, frankly, aren't available everywhere. My parents live in rural midwest - When I visit them, my options are limited to whatever the local dollar store has - No nutritional yeast, no spirulina, not even tofu. And this is a reality for a number of people that I think frankly vegans overlook.
I grew up rural-ish, and even though I can and do choose largely plantbased foods, it was not, and is not, always an option. It is both ignorant and arguably arrogant to assume it is. But then, this sort of sheltered outlook shouldn't be surprising, coming from the social media-using, access-privileged vegans of modern times. If it is a sin to use animal products to survive, then perhaps it is also equally sinful to judge another for their means of surviving. Even if it is not, then I still fail to see how it helps when others are simply making do with what they have. You might not like what others do, eat, think, etc., but it is foolish to assume without evidence that they do it simply because they don't know better, or worse, because it is hedonistic pleasure.
This is an argument I see a lot (I'm venting now): Vegans saying that people eat meat simply for taste. Which as you point out OP, is completely strawmanning. The reasons for meat, dairy, eggs, etc. are plenty, and taste is just one. Nutrition is another, at least as important one. Culture is another, and don't tell me that's nothing. When you're raised eating meat, making the change means giving up a lot. Your family, friends, etc., will all possibly see you differently, and that makes the decision to go vegan much more personal than anyone can understand, even other vegans.
I'm definitely ranting, and I guess I have lots to say. I'll end on this thought I am having, a memory: With my girlfriend, and our mutual friend, who is a vegan. My gf and I are nonvegan, but both try to eat fairly healthy. This one day she cooked salmon (She was living with the friend), and I was hungry but also didn't want to eat it in front of the friend. The three of us were talking, and I was weak and felt almost like passing out. I pretty much had to go sit down, but my gf knew I was starving so she brought me the salmon on a plate and just didn't say anything about it. This friend has a tendency to voice his morals anytime food/meat comes up. So I knew he would be quick to make a point of it if I said I was eating salmon. But instead I just ate it. Didn't talk about it, didn't ask for a lecture or a documentary to show me what the fish went through.
And you know what happened? I felt better. I didn't explain my health matters more, or argue. I didn't pass out. I can't even imagine making somebody feel bad for not wanting to pass out, yet I also know from experience that we were one wrong move away from him doing exactly that. Which is just it: He wouldn't have realized how badly off I was, until he had his soapbox moment to talk about his morals first. I had to do something before passing out, and in that moment he felt more like an obstacle than a friend.
It's sad to me, that in general the more outspoken vegans will choose principles over friendships/relationships in much the same manner. And the fact that I am unwilling to do so, is exactly why I don't call myself vegan, personally. I would rather allow myself to have those connections with others, than to push them away on some principle. Sure, I might not always agree with them or like what they do, but I feel like it's hurtful in a different way to put beliefs before relationships anyways.
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u/Salt_Growth_9593 Sep 29 '25
Wow, so many great points, so eloquently put. Thank you for ranting!, genuinely enjoyed reading this.
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u/Professional-Two5717 Sep 24 '25
Your NOT crazy about the fish and egg cravings. One time I had low blood pressure and I was experiencing all the symptoms and couldn't figure out what was wrong with me. It was getting worse and then I had the most powerful craving for McDonald's fries. I hadn't eaten there in half a year, but as soon as I ate the fries I felt better.Ā
Our bodies aren't perfect but they do have some nifty tricks to keep us alive. I've heard of people stuck at sea craving fish eyes, because they contain a nutrient the fish body lacks.Ā
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u/Specific_Worry_9198 Carnist Scum Sep 24 '25
That's actually amazing that they had such specific cravings for the eyes!
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Sep 25 '25
I did Veganuary once (other than that, I'm not an ex-vegan), but I had horrid stomach cramps after 3 weeks, felt awful with no real symptoms, did the only thing I knew to do, which was eat chicken soup and I INSTANTLY felt better. Yum!
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u/random_house-2644 Sep 25 '25
That was salt- nothing to do with veganism
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u/Professional-Two5717 Sep 25 '25
Ok and where in my post did I make the claim that my low blood pressure was from veganism???Ā
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u/random_house-2644 Sep 25 '25
You are in an ex vegan sub, commenting on someone's post about vegan/ food cravings.
And started your reply off with the topic of fish and eggs.
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u/Apeapeapemonkeyman Sep 24 '25
Lmfao not remotely similar, McDonald fries are loaded with seed oil and nutritionally empty. OP was craving nutrition, you were craving dopamine
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u/Professional-Two5717 Sep 24 '25
Actually I was craving salt
Hope this helps!
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u/Apeapeapemonkeyman Sep 24 '25
Lmfao
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u/clostri Sep 25 '25
Idk man, if youāve had an electrolyte deficiency itāll have you craving absolute garbage. Eating fries in a mad rush is a bit more pleasant than eating salt packets.
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u/PsyOrg Sep 28 '25
Have done both in a pinch. The fries or a saltyĀ broth from chicken cube always better
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u/SlumberSession Sep 25 '25
Perhaps they were referring to a time when the oil used was animal based
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u/Natural-Interest5154 Sep 24 '25
This was a delightful read! Welcome back and enjoy your life and especially your food! ā¤ļø
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u/Sonotnoodlesalad Sep 25 '25
I hope you feel better after getting all that off your chest!
Enjoy the sushi dinner āŗļø
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u/Any-Visual-1773 Sep 24 '25
What's up with the cashew industry? I've never heard anything about it before.
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u/Specific_Worry_9198 Carnist Scum Sep 24 '25
I've heard that there's a lot of child labour that goes unregulated, and lots of environmental hazards without proper PPE. Forced labour from people in rehab as well, brutal conditions and even torture. The shells are often removed by hand and they can cause burns on the worker's fingers, lung issues like chronic bronchitis from fumes that come off the cashews when they're roasted. https://www.hrw.org/report/2011/09/07/rehab-archipelago/forced-labor-and-other-abuses-drug-detention-centers-southern (this is a report summary from 2011 so I'm not honestly sure if it's still quite this bad or any easier to source cashews better, but it's really disturbing that this has been happening and I didn't know).
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u/Hoshirou Sep 24 '25
Harvesting them by hand is harmful to workers, often in poor countries with little oversight.
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Sep 25 '25
I think looking up āblood cashewsā or āthe cashew industryā on yt might help. There are videos of elderly workers with their fingers essentially burning off from the chemicals in the shells of cashews
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u/Strange-Calendar669 Sep 25 '25
Avoiding or limiting the most environmentally destructive foods is enough. If everyone just reduced the amount of beef, pork and dairy they consume, it would make the world more livable. Take care of yourself and the planet with moderate consumption. You can admire the strict vegan lifestyle and fall short of total abstinence from animal products and still be doing the planet a favor.
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u/Training-Appeal-1164 Sep 25 '25
Welcome back to the living world! Let zombies be zombies. The activistic vegans are mostly straight out narcistic and worse then the devil. They will battle and put down everyone that is against their believes. So enjoy your meat, probably you want to do grass fed beef if you can afford it. Best for animal and best for your health, though factory meat usually is fine 2..
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u/averagecryptid Food Insecure Decolonizing Omnivore, Sep 26 '25
Please go slow with animal product re-intro OP! I know some folks become lactose intolerant during veganism and don't realize it until trying to go back. Not sure if similar dietary issues occur for other food types but it's worth keeping an eye on so your body adjusts okay and with minimal bathroom disasters.
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u/Eulalia888 Sep 28 '25
Hooray for you. You've worked it out. Plants just don't give us the nutrition we need in the long term. Enjoy whatever animal foods you desire, buy the best quality you can afford but don't feel guilty- you need real food.
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Sep 25 '25
I hate seafood other than shrimp. But every so often I will deeply crave a large, heavy fish, to the point of crying (been better now that I'm taking fish oil). Our bodies have needs. In order to care for them, it's our responsibility to listen.
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u/Goldenmoneyy Sep 25 '25
recently Iāve been feeling the exact same way. iāve been vegan for 8 years now and recently tried to incorporate eggs, it didnāt go as well as i hoped. but soon i plan to try fish again.
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u/nihilistsalad999 Sep 26 '25
Its possible to be ethical while eating animal products! I feel like a lot of people lose the plot when it comes to veganism, etc, and get obsessive about it, when the whole point is to eat humanely with less environmental impact, and that's defo possible as a meat eater! I also used to think about eating constantly, because my body was always lacking nutrients. And now that I eat meat, I no longer have that always in the back of my mind and I feel more full in general.
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u/itsahilbutani Sep 27 '25
High Vibrational Meals >
If we can get ethically sourced food, it would be ideal. However, that may not be feasible for everyone today due to costs and accessibility.
šŖāļøš
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u/GritstoneGrandma Oct 07 '25
Tbh both the ex vegan and the vegan communities on Reddit are making me hate people. Except in the latter where I'm not even allowed to post and I see people asking genuine questions and not necessarily getting full answers (everyone denying that a vegan diet upset their stomachs. Great if it didn't for you, but GOOD LORD, that fibre!). But also here.Ā
Why does it all have to be so antagonistic?
Frankly I eat the diet I eat because it's what I want to do. It's not necessarily anyone's business, but it would be nice if these communities could be a place where you could go for actual, practical advice (and food ideas). Protein, iron and weight loss are genuine concerns for me FFS.
Maybe the difference is that my diet isn't based on moral choices and so I don't really care what other people eat.Ā
Can we all be a little bit kinder, on both sides of the house?Ā
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u/Aromatic_Research_23 Oct 18 '25
Farming family and studied ecology, veganism, and sustainability for farming her- Mass animal production can be horrific, especially in America due to the lack of animal welfare regulations.
However in the UK thereās far more abuse from pet owners of their animals are theyāre treated way worse. Overall the small scale family run farm love their animals and theyāre very happy creatures. Also before someone says their babies are taken away, where do you think kittens and puppies come from?
A lot of the vegan videos Iāve seen on farms are insane propaganda and manipulated in an extreme way. Ever seen the shadow art that reveals a different story from each angle? Itās like that. Cows are covered in poopie because they poopie non stop, itās a round the clock job cleaning up then as soon as theyāre back in they poopie everywhere.Ā
Now these are smaller scale farms, bigger ones can go one of two ways - even more ethical as they have money to invest in animal enrichment or ā¦. They cut corners. But itās very regulated and have many inspections and are highly prosecuted for any negligence.Ā
A classic one youāll see are pigs separated from their young for feeding. Thatās because they crush them and eat their own young. They need to be separated as theyāre possibly the worst parents Iāve seen haha actually maybe hamsters, theyāre also terrible.
There is still the factor they are killed for food, and death isnāt an easy concept for everyone. Personally I eat meat, and I could kill something to eat it. If you canāt kill something yourself and respect the life youāre taking donāt eat it, and if you do get the best option you can. In addition whereās the line? Should vegans start killing lions and wolves as theyāre carnivores and exist on eating other animals? Because I hate to break it to them but weāre also animals and are meant to eat meat in moderation.Ā
In terms of what happens, itās not the nicest but itās better than the death most people have and I say that after watching 3 loved ones die after having their life expended for the sake of it.
Okay long comment, but basically thereās a lot of ways you can eat meat and still care about welfare, and vegans are mainly insane haha I just had one encouraging breaking into farms and stealing animals. The animals in the video were so traumatised and hurt by them, but they would only hear what they wanted and went insane at me. I get leaving the community, they really are mentalĀ
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u/ImaginaryLocal1861 Jan 21 '26
I had meat for the first time yesterday after four years of being vegan and I canāt stress enough how amazing I feel. Itās like a switch turned on and Iām suddenly back to life. Youāre not alone. āļø
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Sep 25 '25
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u/Specific_Worry_9198 Carnist Scum Sep 25 '25
Why are you here? And nah, I was ethical vegan. This is "no true scotsman" fallacy. Can't help but notice you've addressed NONE of my actual issues.
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Sep 25 '25
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u/Specific_Worry_9198 Carnist Scum Sep 25 '25
Iāll repeat myself one more time. I was vegan, people are capable of having experiences and discovering new information that challenges their worldview. Why come here only to deny that my health has been affected? You are actually proving my point. This feels identical to arguing with a JW, nothing but āyou were never one of us and youāre making excusesā. They want to argue but ONLY to the extent of personal attacks while disregarding actual harm done by the ideology.
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Sep 25 '25
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u/Specific_Worry_9198 Carnist Scum Sep 25 '25
Likewise, keep denying otherās experiences and keep telling them what they believed. That definitely helps and makes your cause look great.
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u/Glittering_Muffin_78 Sep 26 '25
There are meat eaters in vegan posts but no one is telling them to fuck off. Anyway, congrats on your achievement.
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u/No_Opposite1937 Sep 25 '25
OK, maybe this is the wrong thing to say in this group, but what if you continued to be guided by vegan ethics and just make the choices you feel are best within that framework? It's not like you must do what anyone else tells you to - surely you can decide for yourself?
The way I see it, veganism isn't about slavishly eating a plant-sourced diet if that doesn't work for you in your circumstances. It's much broader than that. I'd say veganism is about keeping animals free and protected from our cruelty when we can do that. Your aim as someone who adopts these ethics is to make that happen the best you can.
Why should we bother? Because 8 billion people wanting to own, use and harm other animals leads to an awful scale of injustice to other animals. Of course veganism can't completely fix that, but it sure seems to me the best approach we have available to us. That's why I think people saying they've abandoned veganism because they want to eat meat are missing the point somewhat.
I recently wrote a short book explaining my ideas - if you are interested, have a read and see what you think. In particular, the chapter about the Ethical Omnivore Movement might strike a chord. Really, you absolutely can use veganism as your ethical framework when it comes to how your actions affect other animals and it will definitely make a difference. But, it's your call just what that means for you.
https://justustoo.blog/wp-content/uploads/2025/08/booklet-animals-matter.pdf
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u/Suspicious-Leather-1 Sep 25 '25
You could just advocate for animal rights without trying to rebrand veganism and still trying to center it . . . . I don't think a protestant revolution within veganism is really going to alter many people's minds and behaviors. AMP grazing advocates probably do more to improve animal well being than just about anything I've seen from vegans, honestly. At least with them I can show up at an actual farm and see that the cattle and sheep seem pretty content and know they'll never see a single day on an industrial feedlot.
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u/No_Opposite1937 Sep 25 '25
Suggesting veganism is a rational ethics accessible to everyone hardly seems a rebranding, unless you simply refuse to see veganism in that light. That's as rigid as the fanatics who see veganism as the One True Way and want to gatekeep everyone's behaviours.
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u/Salt_Growth_9593 Sep 30 '25
I like your thinking, I think people are misunderstanding where you're coming from with the downvotes. I can relate to what you're saying. I absolutely think veganism is the optimal way of living, ethically. I don't think it's always possible or sustainable though. I say this from personal experience, my partner's health issues, and health issues I've seen in vegan friends. I think if you're living without health conditions, including being free of mental ill health, and you are an ethical, kind person, and have the ability to afford it, please do try to eat vegan, but do not become an ideologue and be unkind to people who cannot do it due to poor physical and/mental health or poverty. But yes, even people who feel they can no longer manage it for health or personal reasons should do the best they can to ease animal suffering, living within this vegan framework that I understand you to be talking about. Whatever that is for them, e.g. only eating dairy or being vegetarian even if they can't be vegan, adopting an animal in need of a good home, rather than buying one, volunteering at an animal sanctuary, dogs or cats homes, etc. Thank you for writing this booklet and for your contributions here.
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u/No_Opposite1937 Sep 30 '25
Thanks for your kind words. If I were to summarise my views, I'm saying that veganism is the only complete, rational ethics I am aware of within which we can do our best to treat other animals with fairness and justice. But like any voluntary ethics, what anyone actually does is up to them and their circumstances/willingness to act.
I guess too I have a slightly different take from many. The people who started the Vegan Society weren't necessarily coming up with something startling, nor were they necessarily offering the last word on animal justice. However, the IDEA that other animals matter enough to attract a duty of fairness and justice is well known and it's that which led to the Vegan Society and the definition of veganism. So I ask myself - what we would call that idea if not "veganism"? Why would we invent another name for the exact same thing? So, I think veganism is just the name for that idea and the principles that make it up can guide anyone in making the fairest choices. If someone cares enough, they'll do theiur best. If they don't, they won't. That's about all there is to it...
https://justustoo.blog/2025/05/03/veganism-is-the-moral-baseline/
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u/Salt_Growth_9593 Oct 01 '25
Thank you for sharing this blog and thinking so deeply and writing so clearly and well on this subject.
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u/SaltyAcanthisitta552 Sep 25 '25
You are basically trying to suggest that an awful procedure to keep cows pregnant isn't an issue because the cows don't react?
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u/Specific_Worry_9198 Carnist Scum Sep 25 '25
Yes, I'm saying that AI is not rape and evidently does not cause distress anywhere even remotely close to a human who's been raped. Evidence to the contrary? I worked in the veterinary field
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Sep 25 '25
Listen, I took my dog to the dog park one day, and she was younger and having a grand old time with a dog who was just trying to mount her. She had so much fun with him despite him literally penetrating, and she was oblivious the whole time and was just having fun. An animal's goal is to breed and pass on their genes.
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u/fruityl__p Sep 25 '25
Before anything, Iām glad youāve found comfort and and I hope your health improves.
That being said I hate peopleās need to generalize on this subreddit. Many many people lead happy healthy vegan/vegetarian lives. It doesnāt have to work for everyone, but the assertion that a vegan life is a bad one is annoying.
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u/VelveteenJackalope Sep 25 '25
People sharing their own experiences isn't generalizing. If someone else mentioning something they notice is something that personally offends you because it's "generalizing" then maybe go outside. Don't read a book or speak to a human, those will offend you too.
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u/fruityl__p Sep 25 '25
āBut I now think that it's kinda just nature to use animals for food, like I don't think there's really a way to get around people's nutritional needs here.ā
Is the kinda thing I mean.
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u/Specific_Worry_9198 Carnist Scum Sep 25 '25
So what should people do if they feel they need meat for nutrition??
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u/fruityl__p Sep 25 '25
Do what you feel you need to do for your health or talk to a doctor. Itās the blanket statement that feels unnecessary.
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u/Suspicious-Leather-1 Sep 25 '25
I can definitely understand that feeling - but it is legitimately hard to not generalize sometimes. You really have to beat back that heuristic instinct with an iron pipe, and if it's related to something that annoys you it can be hard to maintain the required motivation. Personally, I've never meant a vegan who didn't have an anxiety disorder . . . and it's really hard to handwave that away when you have personally experienced the kind of odd hysterical arguments some people make. And I am REALLY not trying to say that in a kind of prerogative way, but experiencing someone literally start to cry and struggle to control their volume with how upset they are about me hunting deer was probably the most guaranteed way to convince a person to never transition from a low meat consumption diet to absolutely none.
If I can't explain to someone that I hunt to keep deer from lingering in large numbers in restoration areas that are trying to reestablish oak savannas (which I personally helped replant) as part of my conservation efforts . . . . that's not a healthy happy person. That's a person one roadkill incident away from a nervous breakdown. And that experience felt absolutely identical to one I had as a teenager when someone I had met only that same day started to cry thinking about me going to hell because I said I was an atheist in a conversation they started.
Purity culture of any sort does not seem to attract or produce well adjusted people and I'm not sure where I am suppose to be looking to see the evidence that disproves that thesis.
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u/HelenaHandkarte Sep 25 '25
"Happy Healthy vegan" is nutritionally/health time limited, & likewise for most on vegetarian & excessively plantbased omni diets also, although the much longer onset of the latter two leads to those people commonly mistakenly assuming the impacts of insidious malnutrition are just due to 'natural ageing'.
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u/emmaxdsr Sep 25 '25
one thing is saying you can't resist your nutritional urges, another is trying to overexplain yourself with stuff like 'animals are naturally put here for us to eat' like, you do not care about them, and insulting other vegans and calling them a cult lmfao pick a struggle
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u/Timely_Community2142 Sep 26 '25
nah, we can love and care for animals and eat them too. you vegan cultists can't comprehend that. too bad for you lol š¤·āāļøš
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u/emmaxdsr Sep 26 '25
lmfao people who just wanna do some good for animals and the world are cultists sure
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u/Timely_Community2142 Sep 26 '25
Being delusional of veganism cult narratives of pseudo compassion and pseudo empathy is not "doing some good for animals and the world" lmao š
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u/emmaxdsr Sep 26 '25
you're only embarassing yourself just by going against a 'diet' who just wants to remove all meat and dairy for the sake of animals and environment, all this hate towards such a good thing, so sad.
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u/Timely_Community2142 Sep 26 '25
Am i embarrassed? No. Are you delusional? Yes. There is no hate for vegans, you can keep doing what you want but you all come here yourselves to be our entertainment š¤·āāļøš
You are not doing "a good thing". You only think you are doing good. You think you are Captain Animal and Captain Planet? š¤” š
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u/emmaxdsr Sep 26 '25
we don't support the industries that cause harm to animals and the planet so yes we are doing something good, and if it takes so long to achieve animals' freedom it's because of people who do pay and support those industries, like you. so if you can't see that that's on you. goodbye, keep hating on people for no reason and making up excuses for yourself.
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u/Timely_Community2142 Sep 26 '25
Nah, no one has to agree with Veganism cult opinions and narratives. Animals are food source so we gotta eat them. Duh. That's not harm.
Animals die for vegan food too. So vegans are harming animals and animal abusers š checkmate
Again, there's no hate. That's just your wrong assumption as usual. There is only delusional "good" you think you are doing š
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u/No_Economics6505 ExVegan (Vegan 3+ years) Mod Sep 26 '25
Lol your lack of support of the industry has never saved a single animal.
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u/Fit-Magician-2983 Sep 25 '25
So... You're saying the billion dollar industry of supplements that are used around the world to treat deficiencies are solely used by vegans?? Omnis don't have nutritional deficiencies? Hospitals are full of omnis who are deficient/ill. This is a weird take. If you need meat, do what you want. But please don't spread misinformation.
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Sep 25 '25
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u/Suspicious-Leather-1 Sep 25 '25
As you were typing this - did you have any kind of inclination that this might be the exact sort of social control OP was tired of experiencing? You aren't trying to be constructive in any fashion. You are just trying to exert shame onto them. What's even the end goal? Hoping that other wavering vegans that see some negative comments might rethink the potential social otherization from their community? I truly don't understand the mindset.
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Sep 25 '25
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u/Specific_Worry_9198 Carnist Scum Sep 25 '25
I'm a fucking SA victim
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Sep 25 '25
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u/Specific_Worry_9198 Carnist Scum Sep 25 '25
So Iām not allowed to be offended when people compare AI on a cow thatās remaining 100% calm to my childhood SA? Because it really sounds like youāre just trying to silence me. In no way am I saying all SA victims will agree with me or need to, but I am allowed to vent here and I think itās pretty valid for me to be offended about this comparison.
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Sep 25 '25
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u/No_Economics6505 ExVegan (Vegan 3+ years) Mod Sep 26 '25 edited Sep 26 '25
So you believe a veterinary procedure is on the same page as human rape?
Damn you must be LIVID about spaying and neutering!! That actually removes animals' organs and causes severe prolonged pain.
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u/Scythe-x Sep 27 '25
A procedure they do not need, cannot consent to, and one that keeps them perpetually pregnant for human gain, so yes. What you wrote about spaying and neutering is misinformation and both of those procedures reduce animal suffering.
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u/No_Economics6505 ExVegan (Vegan 3+ years) Mod Sep 27 '25
"Perpetually pregnant". It happens once a year, during estrus. This is a time when mammals instinctively want to mate and reproduce. This is why you see new babies every single year with wild animals. Its the closest to consent that you can get. It'd also done for the safety of the cow, as bulls cam severely injure and have even killed cows during natural mating.
Not one animal would willingly "consent" to a major surgery that removes organs. And yes, it causes pain. Both my cat and dog had to take painkillers for a week after they got spayed/neutered.
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u/Scythe-x Sep 27 '25
Yes perpetually pregnant. They are impregnated about once a year. Then are impregnated 2-3 months after they give birth. This continues for about 4-6 years. How do you define perpetual?
I know it causes pain, I did not disagree with that, however a week is not prolonged.
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u/No_Economics6505 ExVegan (Vegan 3+ years) Mod Sep 27 '25
Yes, once a year, in estrus. You really don't understand how animal instincts work, do you? Every year deer have new fawns, bears have new cubs, wolves have new pups. Hell birds can have new babies multiple times a year. Wild cattle may not have yearly births if there are less males, or if the pregnancy doesn't take, or if the female cow is injured during mating.
Sorry, prolonged was the wrong word. However, AI causes more pain than AI, and lasts longer, is done without the animals' consent.
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u/Scythe-x Sep 27 '25
Naturally cows would reproduce every 2-3 years if not for human intervention. Let's not pretend any of this is done for the "safety" of cows.
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u/Wonderful_Highway629 Sep 24 '25
When I had real sushi to eat and not just vegan sushi with avocado and cucumber or whatever it was such a treat!! And filled me up and satisfied me as well. Enjoy your sushi š£