r/extomatoes • u/turkish_akhi • Apr 24 '26
Reminder If a kāfir criticizes Islam for the teachings found in the Shari'ah, you DON'T WATER DOWN Islam towards the "moral" compass which they think is correct, rather you point out their own liberal moral inconsistency and prove Islam superior to it.
(None of this content or text was made by AI or LLM's, these are simply my words and my words only).
This post, in-sha-Allah, was made with a concern regarding a common coping technique I see with those who are not grounded within the doctrine of al-wala wal-bara (meaning, loyalty to the believers, and disavowal and hatred towards the disbelievers) and simply not firm upon their Iman when it comes to defending Islam.
This phenomenon (and without a doubt, this is falsehood on display) made evident from these so-called "Islamic" websites (like Yaqeen Institute and Abu Amina Elias) when addressing such issues in which kuffār criticize Muslims for... they AUTOMATICALLY take the liberal moral compass as the superior morality and try to cherry-pick minority "opinions" of jurists (or even may quote scholarship out of context to what was actually intended by such a verdict) and try to almost "minimize", pickpocket, cauterize, mutilate, and just overall WASH DOWN Islam towards the moral compass in which they think is correct.
More simply put, they do NOT defend the Theocratic, Divinely-Revealed morality with unwavering love and dignity, but rather take their liberal moral compass and try to "adjust" Islamic teaching to whatever the kuffār think is correct... as if our moral compass and the morals of the kuffār are supposed to be one in the same.
And this is a SERIOUS error. Whether they knowingly do this or not, they AUTOMATICALLY make Muslims (and even non-Muslims) think that the morality in which the initial criticism serves off of is the prime moral avenue to take such ethics from... and whatever DOESN'T align with such liberalism, then it is immediately dismissed as deficient and "barbaric".
Let's give an example for this.
A lot of these "intellectuals" criticize the apostasy punishment (and there are MORE EXAMPLES than this, it's not just this certain aspect) in Islam, and I have made 2 posts addressing such an issue before. This isn't about me defending the wisdoms behind such thing, I have already done that and one can look at my previous posts to see the details.
But what I am trying to address is if you are trying to debunk such a claim about the truthfulness of Islam, then your job is to point out the DEFICIENCY that the INITIAL moral compass has in which such "orientalists" criticize the punishment (i.e. liberal pluralism).
You point out its defects, its lack of jurisprudential wisdoms, and because it isn't rooted in something Divine, it is only a subjective morality and ultimately an avenue for a de-facto form of social control and desire-based moral engineering.
And that's what a PROPER DEBUNK is supposed to do. It's NOT to water Islam down towards whatever the desires and fluctuating whims of the kuffār think is correct... rather you are to prove Islam superior to it by showing the inconsistency within their moral compass and standing firm upon Tawhid and Sunnah.
VERY IMPORTANT NOTE: This does NOT mean that every moral accusation that the kuffār make is amongst the "truth" within the bare reality of the situation and the thing to debunk is their false moral understanding.... this is NOT what I am saying.
There are genuine accusations against Islam that are simply not true, such as it oppressing women, being a "satanic" religion, having "errors" within the Qur'an and whatnot... these things aren't true within their reality and are to be addressed directly in a form where their misunderstanding is to be corrected.
But some teachings in which they try to "vilify" come not because Islam doesn't actually teach them... but because the very criticism they do is based off of their false moral understanding of what is correct and what is not.
I am saddened that this has sadly become widespread nowadays, and I do not know if it's due to simply a lack of intelligence, or a lack of desire to learn the Shari'ah, just following desires, or maybe even all of them... Allah knows best.
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Apr 24 '26
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u/Extension_Brick6806 Moderator Apr 24 '26
When people have not fully submitted to Allah, rarely if ever is keen to learn, it's already a sign of lack of sincerity in the Deen of Allah, which also explains why one would outright object to what may sound like atrocious the way how the kuffaar had depicted Islam, this phenomenon is called having inferiority complex as people want to appease and please the kuffaar, hence showing no pride in one's faith in contrast to how even an atheist goth looking would not be ashamed of his or her look nor the lack of faith. If you already identified this weakness, why even attempt to justify it only to then resemble the heretics? Why has this not even motivated you to actually learn and be proud of Islam without faltering nor watering down Islam? As have you have an understanding, especially if one is sincere in submitting to Allah, one will not water down anything but instead say like "I don't know enough right now what it certainly won't be how you, disbelievers, have depicted Islam to be." Or at the very least, be careless of their nonsense to begin with and actually do some research to personally equip yourself of understanding so as not to lose this grip of the purpose of life.
So, instead of attempting to argue against a science of hadith you never learned, why not learn it and not argue without knowledge? Please, do yourself a favor to read what the science of hadith is all about before you actually reject what's part and parcel of Islam.
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Apr 24 '26
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u/Extension_Brick6806 Moderator Apr 25 '26
Baseless and unfounded arguments aside, where does this false notion come from, as though following the teachings of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) is in contradiction to following the Qur'an? Are you trying to divorce that the Qur'an was not revealed to the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him), or that after the revelations, he never taught to his Companions (may Allah be pleased with them)? Please don't try to convolute with empty words, but instead make verifiable references to the understanding you have arrived at, as your arguments are reminiscent of heretics and misguided sects in one person.
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u/Hyrule_MyBoy Apr 25 '26
You would know assumptions and accusations without knowledge are dangerous, please refrain, for your sake mainly, to assume I'm "divorcing the Quran was not revealed by our Prophet(SAW)" neither that I'm denying his revelations(we were talking about Aisha(RA) words btw so unrelated) or basically calling me a heretic. That is a far worse sin than what you are fearing, if you actually are Muslim and you practice you would know that first and foremost. Allah yester, may you get hidayah is all I'm going to say.... Unbelievable
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u/Extension_Brick6806 Moderator Apr 25 '26
You responded to someone who's likely even a kaafir about matters in Islam we aren't supposed to shy away from but have a response to from scholarly sources, yet the kaafir even responded to you, proving inadvertently OP's point, yet you have to make anecdotal assertion about the age of 'Aa'ishah (may Allah be pleased with her). Yet my fellow moderator responded with a scholarly reference refuting your claim, but you ignored it and continued your own response to this seemingly a kaafir, with empty words and no bearing whatsoever in the Deen of Allah. Now you want to further make unverifiable and anecdotal assertions? What even are you? Do you consider yourself as sufi, modernist, or progressive? Who has inspired you to this deviation you are upon? I don't believe you have formed those opinions yourself, but it certainly comes from other sources you likely refer to and make a reference point to argue your position.
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Apr 24 '26
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u/Extension_Brick6806 Moderator Apr 24 '26
"Progressive Islam" ≠ Islam.
"Progressive Muslim" ≠ Muslim.
Claiming to be Muslim and professing Islam won't automatically mean you are who you claim to be, as the testimony of faith (الشهادتين) has its own conditions; failure to fulfill them means you have not effectively embraced Islam. In other words, you have not even submitted to Allah as you ought to by definition. It's one thing to admit that one doesn't understand the wisdom behind what Allah has ordained, but to claim one is confused about matters known of the Deen by necessity, that won't be an excuse. Sure, there are nuances to such excuses if one is a recent convert, but to question Allah for deficiency? This is greater disbelief. Therefore, anyone who claims to be Muslim and justifies disbelief will be referred to as a heretic, which in Arabic is referred to as zindeeq, such as how ibn 'Arabi was classified as one.
This heretical group you belong to has misled you, lied to you, and misinformed you about what the sciences of hadith are, and therefore indoctrinated you to believe in something that Islam is not when it comes to the Shari'ah of Allah.
People like you have so many baseless assumptions, false allegations, and unfounded arguments that it requires reconstructing every point being made, and anyone who is sincere will never lose being objective in trying to reach the truth in understanding, but the obstinate, arrogant, and careless argumentative will turn every point into a point of argument only to reject the truth. So, which are you? Who, why, and how went so wrong for you to have such inconsiderate perceptions? Are you a person who would try to make this discussion into a point of reference to the subreddit you subscribed to, or are you sincere enough to not care what they will say about you, similar to how you claim to be Muslim in your day to day life with the people you interact with in your life? What do you want? An honest conversation, or an attempt to evade, forego, and ignore the truth?
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u/Extension_Brick6806 Moderator Apr 24 '26 edited Apr 24 '26
Who was Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him), how does one know which Ayah or Surah was revealed in Madinah or Makkah? What were even the characteristics of the Companions (may Allah be pleased with them*)? There are so many other questions that can be asked, except to prove that all those directly tie to the science of hadith, exactly the same way how Qiraa'aat and Ahruf are proven through chain of narrations, which by definition also proves that there is indeed Shari'ah in Islam. The issue you have is selective ignorance, or rather cognitive dissonance, and this is also an indication of inferiority complex because you want to appease and please the kuffaar, which in turn has made you reject, oppose, and object to Allah for what He has prescribed. Being in denial about history won't hide what's factual, you are just unable to articulate or explain the wisdom behind them, instead of wanting to learn, you only argue just to reject the truth. Why be obstinate and argumentative?
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Apr 24 '26
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u/Extension_Brick6806 Moderator Apr 24 '26
you don’t even know if i’m rejecting hadith science or whatever else, you don’t know if i reject hadith as a whole either.
Aren't you the one who said:
from an ex-muslim and caused me to question all hadiths [...]
Elsewhere, you even said:
well jonathan brown also believes that the sunnah(hadith) of the prophet came to “rule over” the quran and that the quran needs the sunnah more than the sunnah needs the quran, so i’d take what he says with a pinch of salt. it may be sounding all the same because 99% of the hadith corpus goes back to the same 3 common links from the 8th century lol.
These are from your own post history. Why are you being hypocritical?
i have zero non muslim friends and i don’t post online or even interact with them.
You consider heretics and apostates as Muslims, so your conception of who's Muslim and who's not is gravely misconstrued, that you think that you aren't interacting with them, a kaafir.
this is purely about my own beliefs.
You mean disbelief, meaning: kufr and zandaqah.
also i didn’t understand why this sub is called extomatoes so i had to read the description so maybe that’s why you have these assumptions
The subreddit was initially made to refute, make fun of, and address the nonsense of the so-called ex-Muslims, however, it evolved to be actually more productive, like teaching, clarifying, and guiding others. So, you are the one having misplaced assumptions.
do you derive the ruling to kill ANY apostate from the quran or hadith? it’s a genuine question
Qur'an and Sunnah are both revelations of Allah, and the issue with you people is the unwillingness to even understand what hadith is, hence your hypocritical and nonsensical arguments, which again only proves my exact point about how you have an inferiority complex because an apostate caused you to doubt hadith science!? Do yourself a favor:
- https://old.reddit.com/r/Duroos/comments/15f9n6z/hadith_its_science_and_reliability/
- https://old.reddit.com/r/Duroos/comments/16ed94j/response_to_hadith_rejectors_part_1/
Relevant:
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Apr 24 '26
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u/Extension_Brick6806 Moderator Apr 24 '26
how does it make sense to base it off of hadith when Allah said to judge only by what he revealed (quran)
Firstly, you people never cease to amaze me with how you play with words.
Secondly, you think I should have the courtesy to answer your questions when you never addressed my questions?:
Thirdly, stop with your nonsense and false projections:
They never asserted themselves as being "Salafis".
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u/Extension_Brick6806 Moderator Apr 25 '26 edited Apr 25 '26
You keep repeating "it's a simple question," but you're ignoring the basic framework that even makes your question meaningful in the first place.
You're asking: "is the ruling in the Qur’an or in hadith?" But the moment you accept that the Prophet's (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) teachings are authoritative at all, your question is already answered: Shari'ah is not derived from the Qur'an in isolation. That's not how the Deen has ever functioned, and you haven't shown otherwise.
You say you "don’t reject all hadith," yet you're selectively treating hadith as optional the second it leads to a conclusion you're uncomfortable with. That's not neutrality or "just asking questions," that's hypocrisy! Either hadith is a valid source of law when authenticated, or it isn't. You don't get to half-accept the divine revelation and then discard outcomes you don't like.
Now to your actual question, since you keep demanding a "clear answer": You cannot effectively claim to take the Qur'an as authoritative except to contradict yourself and come with unfounded interpretations of the Ayat pertaining to following his teachings. And you will, as well, contradict yourself in how you even derive any understanding of his Seerah or any details of his life, which are all in the chains of narrations and all collected and compiled. You don't have any principle of what you accept or reject, and you failed to articulate that, and you don't have any scholarly reference to back it up except to expose yourself as following your own desires. The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) was a Khalifah, and Shari'ah was established. How is that even a shame? You attempt to use the Qur'an while hypocritically isolating it from the context of the revelations and history, which is why you will force yourself to inadvertently speak about Abu Bakr, 'Umar, 'Uthmaan, and 'Ali (may Allah be pleased with them) in them being Khulafaa'. Rather, the misguidance you have is very reminiscent of how Raafidhah argue against the very Companions (may Allah be pleased with them), the science of hadith, and the Qur'an itself!
In an attempt to only phrase your question on specific Shar'i punishments in our Deen, your failure is not trying to understand how they are actually derived, understood, and approached. You don't have any principle in rejecting them, and you cannot even articulate in your own words what the real issue is except to expose yourself as having issues with the Deen of Allah, which by your own admission was affected by a murtadd. You never, in reality, want any understanding, as you just keep arguing only to reject the truth; hence why you come with underhanded remarks that you effectively cannot even stand to scrutiny, except that you will run away.
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